BobRyan Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Did you read "message to the Kingdom of Heaven" someplace "IN" the text of scripture between Rev 2 and Rev 3 or are you simply making stuff up? in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 The Sabbath is fast approaching here on the east coast, and everything is quiet and peaceful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Bob, Verse 11 of chapter 1 (Rev.) tells us that John was to write in a book what you see and send IT to the seven churches. Then at the end of chapter 1 we see what these churches represent. All of them represent the 7 (fullness) lampsands and of course we know that the lampstands represent the Kingdom of Heaven in the last days--you know, the rock cut out without hands that is set up in 1843 who thought Jesus was going to come and now call that event "The Great Dissippointment". None of this affects the rest of the world (the nations of the world) Therefore ALL of the messages were sent to all of the churches. By reading what these messages say, one can prove that they were not to be understood by anyone until the last generation. Why? Because the messages only affect those in the Kingdom of Heaven during the last days. (hint--look at Sardis-this event happens when Jesus comes to seal the 144k and the 5 wise bridesmaids.) And--remember, I was speaking hypothetically. And no, I was not making this stuff up. It comes straight from the bible. Of course, only the 'wise' will understand (Dan. 12:10) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Bob, Verse 11 of chapter 1 (Rev.) tells us that John was to write in a book what you see and send IT to the seven churches. Then at the end of chapter 1 we see what these churches represent. All of them represent the 7 (fullness) lampsands and of course we know that the lampstands represent the Kingdom of Heaven in the last days--you know, the rock cut out without hands that is set up in 1843 who thought Jesus was going to come and now call that event "The Great Dissippointment". None of this affects the rest of the world (the nations of the world) Therefore ALL of the messages were sent to all of the churches. By reading what these messages say, one can prove that they were not to be understood by anyone until the last generation. Why? Because the messages only affect those in the Kingdom of Heaven during the last days. (hint--look at Sardis-this event happens when Jesus comes to seal the 144k and the 5 wise bridesmaids.) And--remember, I was speaking hypothetically. And no, I was not making this stuff up. It comes straight from the bible. Of course, only the 'wise' will understand (Dan. 12:10) I'm not quite wise enough to understand a few of your statements here Dr. Rich. It is my understanding that the lampstands represent churches, not the other way around. Why would my understanding be wrong on that? My lampstand is the local church to which I belong, or some other gathering of people where I can share any light I have, like this forum. I consider this forum a lampstand. And it is my understanding that the stone at the end of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, ground the nations of the world into dust, and became a mountain. I think it became the mount of gathering, or the cosmic mountain, which is symbolic of God's kingdom, which is in fact all of creation and beyond. This goes infinitely far beyond the SDA church. And it is my understanding that the nations of the world have not been ground into dust yet, so the Kingdom of God has not been fully instituted here yet. And I was just wondering why this understanding is not Biblical? I don't see any reason to believe the Kingdom of God will be fully set up on the earth until after the millennium, during which absolutely nothing but sleep of death is happening on earth. This is standard SDA interpretation, and I don't see any reason to reinterpret as of yet. We don't know how long it will take for everyone to make their final decision as to whom they will serve, but when that happens, then Jesus will return. He knows when, but nobody else does. And I don't believe anybody else will know, until it becomes obvious that everyone we meet have fully developed their characters either for good or for evil. Everyone we meet will either be like Jesus or like Satan. Then we will know Jesus is returning before the "Satans" kill all the "Christians." Now I know the SDA church is not perfect. Ellen White says the church is feeble and defective. But it ain't the Babylon of which we are told to flee. It is still the object of God's supreme regard on this earth. I realize that perhaps you have had an epiphany in which you were given special understanding of the end times which no one else can see. Well, such an enlightenment is both a blessing and a curse. It is a blessing to know, but it is a curse because there is no one with whom you can share it. In order to explain your enlightenment to SDAs, you will need to adapt it to the standard SDA time line of end time events. And I am only saying that to encourage you to help me understand if there is any truth in that which you are saying. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 What Dr. Rich is trying to say is this. God lost dominion over this world when the evil one usurped it through lies and deceit. How this all happened is a subject for another theological topic, the fact that it happened is obvious. God will not allow the evil one have dominion over this world forever and has a plan to restore His glory (Righteousness/truth)and dominion to this world. It is true that God could "make" this happen through His might and power, but apparently that would not serve justice, or He would have done that by now. God has a plan to restore His dominion to this earth and He has revealed this plan to us through His prophets and Son and the Son's disciples Matthew and John. To explain in detail the intricacies of this "plan for restoration" would take some time, but in a nutshell this is what I have come to understand. God's plan for restoration requires that He establish a kingdom of His own on this world. This kingdom would be in the world but not of the world, it would be a kingdom of heaven. It is called the kingdom of heaven because the King lives in the heavens. It is also called the kingdom of God because it is God's kingdom as apposed to the kingdom of the world or the kingdom of the evil one. This kingdom of God would be established upon a covenant and would be purchased with righteous blood. The kingdom would have teachers of righteousness, these were the priests. The priests would learn from God and teach the kingdom what they learned from God. The kingdom would learn righteousness and demonstrate this to the nations around. The nations would then see that the God of Israel was the only God and would want to learn about the God of Israel. Unfortunately the opposite happened, the kingdom of heaven wanted to be like the kingdom of the world and broke the covenant and ultimately rejected their King and hung Him on a cross. I know that God is the same yesterday, today and forever. I know that God is perfect in everything He does and that God's plan starts out perfect and remains perfect. I say this because the plan for restoration remains unchanged, with one exception, the kingdom was taken away from the literal offspring of Israel and given to a people who will accomplish the plan (see Matthew 22:33-46. see especially vs 43). I know what you are thinking, Matthew 22... it is a parable not a reality, but look at what the chief priests and Pharisees recognized about this parable, they knew Jesus is talking about them, that is reality for them anyway. The people who will receive the kingdom that was taken away from Israel, are revealed in Matthew 25, they expect the return of the Bridegroom and they go out to meet Him. Matthew 25 starts with the words "Then or at that time the kingdom of heaven will be like...” The group of people who go out to meet the Bridegroom are called the kingdom of heaven, not the kingdom of the world. Jesus is a King and He has a kingdom here on earth, established upon the covenant (Ten Commandments) and it is a denomination which started from a group of people who suffered a great disappointment. This great disappointment was their expectation that the Bridegroom was coming at a certain time and He didn't come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Oldsailor wrote: “I realize that perhaps you have had an epiphany in which you were given special understanding of the end times which no one else can see. Well, such an enlightenment is both a blessing and a curse. It is a blessing to know, but it is a curse because there is no one with whom you can share it. In order to explain your enlightenment to SDAs, you will need to adapt it to the standard SDA time line of end time events. And I am only saying that to encourage you to help me understand if there is any truth in that which you are saying.” Yes, I hear what you say Oldsailor, The ONE person found in Matthew 24:42-51 probably will be very frustrated too—just as I am now. I’ve heard it said that the pain level is not bad enough for people to change, but that will change once the time of trouble starts. But it is not because the information is not out there. Anyone can listen to our Sabbath School study now going on for over 15 years from the Calimesa CA SDA church. In fact, the best study so far was today’s (July 18, 2009) and can be heard and found by going to www.blogtalkradio.com/spiritoftruth I would suggest anyone who wants to be among the “wise” to listen to this and tell me what they think. Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Okay, I listened a while, until I encountered a couple of misinterpretations. To start with, Nebuchadnezzar's dream is a multi layered prophecy, and your speaker doesn't say anything about the first interpretation. Secondly, and it probably should be firstly, you are doing something which your theology preaches against. You are doing your own interpretations of the Old Testament, when you should be relying totally on the testimony of Jesus. It is kind of funny when I think about it. People say they depend entirely upon Jesus, then immediately open the Bible to Daniel. lol Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 18, 2009 Members Share Posted July 18, 2009 Interesting post oldsailor29. I think I pretty much agree with your post. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted July 18, 2009 Share Posted July 18, 2009 Daniel 2:31-35 "You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. "The head of that statue {was made} of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. "You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. "Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:37-45 "You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; and wherever the sons of men dwell, {or} the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given {them} into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold. "After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth. "Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. "In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. "{As} the toes of the feet {were} partly of iron and partly of pottery, {so} some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. "And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery. "In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and {that} kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. "Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy." Daniel 7:18 'But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.' Daniel 7:21,22 "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. Daniel 12:9,10 He said, "Go {your way,} Daniel, for {these} words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. " Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." What academic degree would one need to understand the "multiple layers" of apocalyptic prophecy? It appears very clear to me from the interpretation that Daniel receives from God and heavenly beings. There has been a progression of four mighty empires and we are now in a time when there are many nations some strong some weak. During this time of many kingdoms we are told that the God of heaven will setup a kingdom which will ultimately triumph over the kingdoms of the world. These are not my words this is the words of the divine interpreters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Oldsailor, It sounds to me as if you are sure you know how to interpret all prophecy because all it took was for you to listen to someone else for just a few minutes and you determined that his interpretations differed from yours so he must be wrong; so then you figured that you didn't need to listen further "For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked." Now where have I heard that before? Oh, that's right, Rev. 3:17, the message to the Leodiceans. This is a wonderful example of a mind set that I term "SDA institutional arrogance"; a disease that mostly infects long time SDA's that are so indoctrinated in the catechism of the General Conference, Andrew's Univ. theology dept. They are absolutely sure they have "The Trooth" (thanks Dr. Rich). Daniel said something entirely different: Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. Dan.12:10. Who are the wise? Could it be they are those that are willing to learn something new? Who are the wicked? Could it be that they are the "know-it-all's" to whom 'new light' is merely stating what they already know in a 'new' way? What is it that the wise shall understand? It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that the wise understand the TRUTH; a new Truth that is significantly different than what is being taught by church institutions because they (as the Pharisees before them) have a vested interest in maintaining the structure that keeps them in power, the Truth be damned. Are there any of you who actually have the level of self honesty that is necessary to admit that this could describe your operating system and do something to change it? Remember, there are going to be five wise bridesmaids and five foolish ones; and right now ALL of them are asleep. Jesus said it best (always does): Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Rev.3:2-3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Oldsailor, I am sorry you bit off more than you could chew, but when you said that there was no one that would listen you are completely wrong. The Sabbath School Study is being heard all around the world and we have over two thousand that listen by them downloading it. But you are right by saying that this is the ONLY group in the world that uses their own intelect (not having their minds made up already by false ideas) and is blessed by the Holy Spirit. Since the 144,000 will come out of the SDA Church, what we are presenting is NEW FOOD that can't be rebutted or argued against by the words of Jesus given to ous by His eyewitnesses. As attempted to by those on this forum, no one has yet been able to do so, and if anyone could, then I would be happy to change to follow ONLY the real truth. Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 stick to the facts only. Would that be only the facts that soothe the____well whatever. "Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way. "Luke 6:27 NASB "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them."Psalm 119:165 KJV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Dr. Rich, I'm sorry I disrespected you. I don't know what came over me. There is no excuse for being disrespectful to elders. You're in good company, Rich4truth. "Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."Matthew 23:26,27 KJV "Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, "My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day." At this the high priest Ananias ordered those standing near Paul to strike him on the mouth. Then Paul said to him, "God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!" Those who were standing near Paul said, "You dare to insult God's high priest?" Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: 'Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people."Acts 23:1-5 NIV "Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously"1 Peter 2:23 KJV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 So what happens when Jesus quotes from the Old Testament, which he did quite often? Horrors!!! A conundrum of which we who are so wise, have little venue by which to pursue. Perhaps a little of this might place some light on the disagreement, though it has to be believed and put into practice. "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."Matthew 18:3 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Jesus affirms the value and continued authority of "scripture" and the OT as well as the NT today is "scripture". An interesting point made by a bible student brother today. There are Christians of Jewish heritage who do not accept old and new testament as accurately describing the present Holy Bible, but first and second covenant. I can see how this would satisfy some difficulties in perceived contradictions. "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."John 4:22 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 What academic degree would one need to understand the "multiple layers" of apocalyptic prophecy? It appears very clear to me from the interpretation that Daniel receives from God and heavenly beings. There has been a progression of four mighty empires and we are now in a time when there are many nations some strong some weak. During this time of many kingdoms we are told that the God of heaven will setup a kingdom which will ultimately triumph over the kingdoms of the world. These are not my words this is the words of the divine interpreters. Yes, this is the standard SDA interpretation. We are in the time of many nations, which the stone will grind into dust at some time in the future. I see no reason to believe otherwise at this point. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Oldsailor,It sounds to me as if you are sure you know how to interpret all prophecy because all it took was for you to listen to someone else for just a few minutes and you determined that his interpretations differed from yours so he must be wrong; so then you figured that you didn't need to listen further "For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked." Now where have I heard that before? Oh, that's right, Rev. 3:17, the message to the Leodiceans. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I have to say, even though Rick Sterling and Dennis Neufeld seem oblivious to the correction of Miller's interpretation from 1843 to 1844, and even though they seem to be confused on the location of God's kingdom/throne, and they seek to classify Ellen White as the false prophet of "Revelation," There was one new truth into which I suspect they unknowingly swerved. They pointed out that the "great multitude" of Revelation 7 is coming out of the great tribulation. This coming out is present tense, which indicates that it does not have a time limitation. This is why the multitude cannot be numbered, because the number of the multitude will continue to increase until all are saved. You won't hear that in any SDA meeting, so now you know I am not infected by SDA institutional arrogance, but it certainly harmonizes with the idea that God wants to save everybody, and God always gets what He wants. P.S. This is not the only issue I have with SDA theology, so you know where that leaves your accusations of SDA indoctrination from Andrews. I think in all probability, Andrews with its ATS, and even the GC with its BRI would need to publish disclaimers along with any of my beliefs. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Oblivious to what? Miller and Co. did get the correct date for the fulfillment of the 2300 day/year prophecy in the Fall of 1843, but the misinterpretation about what was to occur and the fact that they couldn't understand how they could be wrong caused them to add an extra year and move the date forward one year. They had it correct in one aspect but incorrect in the other. There are two things that need to coincide in order to be able to understand prophecy; you need to know the right time for the fulfillment and the right events to be fulfilled. You can get one of them right and the other wrong and still have a misinterpretation of that prophecy. So how do you know if there is even a remote chance to get both of those requirements correct? If prophecy has not been unsealed (the time for the fulfillment has come) then no one can, no matter how committed they are to the Kingdom of God, to spreading the gospel of that Kingdom, or competent in exegesis, understand the correct interpretation of the prophecy, it would be completely impossible. Only prophecies that are unsealed can be understood and correctly interpreted. But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Dan.12:4. This verse states that the prophecies of the end of time have a proper time to be understood, and that is only at the appointed time of the end (Matt. 24:45). It is therefore very necessary to know without question WHEN the appointed time of the end is. This is why saying that no one can ever know the day or the hour of the timing of when Jesus is going to come is so wrong. That is not what Jesus either said or meant in Matt. 24:36. Jesus requires us to know. It would be unfair of God to punish the Faithful and Wise servant (who has turned wicked) for NOT KNOWING when He is to come (Matt.24:45-51). The understanding of our church that it is impossible to know the time of the end stems from the reaction to the "Great Disappointment" of 1844 C.E. not from a correct interpretation of prophecy. Wm. Miller was not living at the appointed time of the end. Ellen White, James White, or any of our original church founders were not living at the appointed time of the end. Neither was the 'apostle' Paul. Yet none of these people knew they were not living in the time of the end. They thought they were. But no one that was living at that time was living during the appointed time of the end. Why can I say this with complete confidence? Because they are ALL dead. No one that was living before the ending of the Restoration calendar (as defined in Lev.25) in 1994 C.E. could possibly know the correct interpretation of any of the end time prophecies in Daniel and Revelation. Briefly, the Restoration calendar has two key time factors; the 49 years of Jubilee/Restoration (7 weeks of years) and God's limit of forgiveness of 70 (70 x 7 = 490, Matt.18:21-22). Israel became the Kingdom of Heaven at Sinai in 1437 B.C.E. which started the Restoration calendar (restoration of the Kingdom). 49 years (restore factor) x 70 (forgiveness limit) = 3,430 years as the total for the Restoration calendar. Add 3,430 years to 1437 B.C.E. as the beginning of the calendar and you get 1994 C.E. which is the appointed time of the end. Is this speculative? Certainly. But given what we know about how important timing is to God and the fact that He said He would reveal to us this timing through John, through the angel, by Jesus and the Father (Rev.1:1-3) about when He would come back to get His Kingdom it is also certainly possible, even likely. Believing that we are living during the appointed time of the end and that we are in the delay spoken of in Rev.7 gives me strength and courage to endure to the end, because I know that He will come in my life time. Wonderful. Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. Rev.3:10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsailor29 Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Oblivious to what? Miller and Co. did get the correct date for the fulfillment of the 2300 day/year prophecy in the Fall of 1843, but the misinterpretation about what was to occur and the fact that they couldn't understand how they could be wrong caused them to add an extra year and move the date forward one year. They had it correct in one aspect but incorrect in the other. Okay, I see how you get 2300 years. The time was correct, but the interpretation was not. So we have the beginning of the investigative judgment. Quote Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Oldsailor wrote: "We don't need advanced degrees to learn from the teachings of Jesus. But if we want to learn truth from the Old Testament, we do need the tools of historical-critical interpretation. Before we ever try to decide what the OT means to us, we have to determine what it meant to the prophets who first spoke it and their audience, then what it meant to later prophets who used it and their audience, and so forth as far as possible, then maybe we can make a correct analogical application to ourselves." 1) God said NO ONE UNTIL THE LAST GENERATION would understand the prophecy about the end because it was sealed up. Paul, EGW, W. Miller etc. clearlly did not and could not have known the truthful understanding because God said so! 2) Only the WISE will understand and none of the wicked will. 3) The WISE living in the last generation will understand the real truth and better than anyone that has ever lived in the past and better than anyone who does not keep the ten commandments and the whole testimony (words) of Jesus and Him alone. 4) You are speculating about more than ONE person being the one described in Matthew 24:45 as the one left in charge of the Masters house. Clearly every bible version states this is only ONE person. 5) If everyone will be saved as you wrote, then why is there a punishment for the wicked and why is it that only the WISE will understand? As I said earlier, the message is out there, God knows who truely want to know the truth and those will be the 144,000 who will listen and understand (eat the food/meat provided by the ONE in Matthew 24:45) to what is being presented by the Calimesa California Sabbath School class called "The Revelation Of Jesus". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 God wants to save everybody, and God always gets what He wants. I'm assuming you mean the Father wanted to see His Son hung on a cross. "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11 KJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 but it certainly harmonizes with the idea that God wants to save everybody, and God always gets what He wants. God does not always get what he wants. He wants everyone to be saved. Is that going to happen? No. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 oldsailor: You say we must try to understand the prophecy's meaning to the prophet? No, we must understand the meaning, purpose and application from the One giving the information to the prophet. Da 8:16 And I heard the voice of a man between {the banks of} Ulai, and he called out and said, " Gabriel, give this {man} an understanding of the vision." Da 12:8 As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, "My lord, what {will be} the outcome of these {events?}" Prophecy from God is not subject to man's own interpretation. The truth of the meaning, understanding and application of the information from God comes from God. Ex 7:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, " See, I make you {as} God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. Here is a case in point. Moses refused to speak to Pharaoh the message God gave to him. God was quite upset about this, but worked out a method by which Pharaoh would hear the message. In doing so, God gave us an understanding of the role of His prophet/messenger. The role of God was filled by Moses. The role of God's prophet was filled by Aaron. The one to receive the message was Pharaoh. Did Pharaoh need to try and understand how Aaron understood and interpreted the information he received from Moses? Why didn't God just tell Pharaoh Himself instead of going through a prophet? When we understand the function and purpose of prophecy then the prophet of God is not speaking on his own, but only what he sees and hears. It is then our duty to determine the time of application and fulfillment. If God says this will occur in the time of the end and we are living at the time of the end, then the fulfillment is in process or near future, if not then it has a future application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 That's right and we have been living in the "time of the end" for some time now. We have reached the period foretold in these scriptures. The time of the end is come, the visions of the prophets are unsealed, and their solemn warnings point us to our Lord's coming in glory as near at hand. {DA 235.1} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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