Perfectionism and the Theory of Evolution

[Tom Wetmore]

Perfectionism is the idea that the final culmination of Salvation will be when a group of people for the very first time in the history of the world will have achieved the perfection fit for heaven. While most think of this as character/spiritual perfection, in practice most of the proponents of this idea deem it necessary to do everything possible to perfect and purify themselves physically as well.

This sanctification process is gradual, the work of a lifetime. But what is the reality? The older you get over that lifetime, the less perfect physically and mentally you become. The aging process may result in less sinfulness, if only because of lower libido, less physically ability and strength to do bad things and growing inactivity of any sort, good or bad.

Isn't perfectionism pretty much the theological equivalent of the theory of evolution? Evolution holds that over a long time species improve, weeding out imperfections by survival of the fittest, natural selection, etc., transforming into higher and more complex creatures. The eventual end result of evolutionary theory would be that mankind will progressively become perfect.

But what is the reality? Over the history of the world do we see nature improving and is mankind evolving physically superior in a fundamental sense?

[Tom Wetmore]

The answer to the theory of perfectionism is this:

Salvation in Jesus is more consistent with a belief in a Creator God that can create life from nothing, order from chaos, and to do so instantly in the blink of an eye by miraculous words. Salvation is the act of new creation, re-creation of this world, transforming it by the Word become flesh.

The miracles of Jesus were singular acts of creation on a micro level. And the final culmination of the miracles of the Creator God was to recreate life from the lump of matter of his own dead corpse. Resurrection is our only hope because it is the evidence that even the cycle of life to death is reversed. The final act of Salvation is that the Creator God will create a new heaven and a new earth from dead matter of the old and will populate it with the recreated people he has save by his creative Word.

Salvation takes a life-giving miracle by a creator God that works quickly.

Tom

[phkrause]

Interesting question and answer. I like what you had to say, I'm going to take it in before I comment. If anything its very thought provoking.

pk

[Ted Oplinger]

I sense the pot is being stirred again...!

Got to love it!

[Kevin H]

Thank you Tom, excellent post. Eli Siegel said that all beauty is the oneness of opposits. We find opposits all over, a good photo has surface and depth, moment and timeless, streight and curve, dark and light. Our two critics of Adventism have tended to take the opposits appart and emphesising one aspect at the expense of the other, making their half a truth a lie.

Now as I understand last generation perfection is not that "group of people for the very first time in the history of the world will have achieved the perfection fit for heaven." but that the last generation is where people reach a trust in and love for God that we see in Job, Paul, John Wesley etc. That God has always had a perfect group in all generations, but they have always been a small group, a bell curve, those fully committed to God, those who have accpetd Christ (on some level) and are saved but does not reach the depth of expirence that say John Wesley did, those who have not accpeted and are lost, but who still can change their mind and has the potential of salvation, and finally those who have committed the unpardonable sin. Last day pefection is where those from the second and third group end up in either the first or last group.

The modern view of pefection, that ses it as you discribed it has split the opposits of faith and works and tend to look at their works and have a long do and don't list. While we see in Paul and Job and John Wesley just such a looking to Jesus and trusting in Jesus and by beholding they became changed.

[BobRyan]

Sanctification is the idea that over time you gain victory over sins instead of remaining an infant in Christ fit only for milk (see Hebrews 5 where Paul makes this case and also 2Cor 3 where Paul again makes the same case).

The concept of sanctification (without even getting to the argument for "cease to sin") argues that "change and grow" case right out of the gate. So I suppose you could liken those who do not reject scripture's teaching on sanctification to a kind of loosely and liberally defined 'evolution'.

However (as it turns out) not all who accept the Bible doctrine on sanctification - will ALSO agree with Ellen White's teaching on "cease to sin" aspect of last day events at the close of probation.

So then what does the "cease to sin" teaching ADD ( which could in anyway affect the topic regarding the myth of evolutionism )? It adds the fact that pretty much the "cease to sin" group is 100% opposed to the myths of evolutionism but there is some % of those who reject "cease to sin" in Rev 15 who will go on to swallow the myths of evolutionism.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

Based on the "success" thus far in earth's history for humanity to achieve sinless perfection ( or even come within a few light years of it) by the theory proposed by the last generation advocates, the time-line is also consistent with the time-line proposed by the theory of evolution. Not in a billion years!

But Jesus' short miraculous life demonstrates that a miracle working Creator God can and will step into history and redeem, recreate, and restore with only His Word.

[Neil D]

Perfection in humans based upon the redemption, recreation and restoration with only God's Word...? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....................I may be splitting hairs here, but it seems to me that these are guidelines and principals enacted upon the human...but it does not guarantee perfection....that is, acting perfectly in relationship to those around the person who has had all these things in his life.....There is one more thing that is needed.....What is needed is, not only what you have stated, but an active relationship with the God of the universe....

But like I said, I may be splitting hairs here....

[Bravus]

(misunderstanding of evolution in the premise, but interesting discussion anyway)

[Tom Wetmore]

Elaborate a bit on what you mean...

I don't presume to have it scientifically correct, but more a common layman's view, I guess. But then, I would say that the flip side of the idea - the theology of perfection - may similarly suffer from misunderstanding in the common layman's mind.

A corrrect understanding of both might actually reinforce the idea...

[Bravus]

You've committed the teleological fallacy - the idea that evolution has a goal, and is an inevitable process of moving toward that goal (in this case, perfection).

Evolution is nothing more nor less than adaptation to the environment. If the environment changes, what counts as 'fittest' changes too. Since the environment is always changing, there is no end-point to evolution. There are just more tries, some of them ending in evolutionary dead ends, others changing to meet the new requirements.

I think we fall into this because we see ourselves (humans) as the pinnacle toward which nature has been striving for millenia (at least). But we're just another waystation - different from our Cro-Magnon ancestors, but also different from our post-human descendents, should time last that long.

Let me add a plea here: Tom has an intriguing idea, *please* let us not head off into another boring old repetitive origins debate.

[Bravus]

So, taking the original point about endpoints and attaining perfection: I personally find it hard to get exercised about since it seems to me deeply unBiblical. It is supported largely from EGW's writings, and I guess I'll have to double-damn myself by saying that if she contradicts the clear teaching of the Bible then *she is wrong*.

[Musicman1228]

Wow, Bravus, making a statement (in whatever context) intimating that EGW contradicts the Bible is very daring. Congrats on your bravery and commitment to the Truth.

[Tom Wetmore]

Psst... It's OK here in the heretics' corner... :smilewink:

[Tom Wetmore]

I think the comparison can still hold, perhaps on several levels.

There is indeed a corollary in the theological theory of perfectionism to the teleological fallacy I have articulated. (It is a common perception in the origins debate which creates a bit of a non-sequitur between the opposing sides of the discussion... but that deserves serious consideration in your Origins Forum perhaps..if you could get rational participation...)

It seems to me that the moral perfectionism theory suffers from a moral teleological fallacy also. And it is just as wrong as my characterization of evolution. Most proponents seem to believe that perfection is the goal, the end objective, if not our raison d'être.

But it seems to me that our reason for being was to be in relationship with God and the fellow inhabitants of this earth and as an adaptive relationship to the environment itself. And relationship is dynamic and ever changing, creatively so or by the process of the creative image of God. And our true raison d'être really has no end-point.

The whole fallacy of perfectionism (or at least as it is promoted by many well meaning Adventists) suggests that such a state of being is the end, the objective to which we are to be purposefully developing. If we from our current state can just reach that goal everything about us will be as it was intended by God sufficient to put us into a perfect environment as he originally intended before something was introduced that threw everything off balance in this earth.

But this takes us off in the wrong direction because it is being used as a substitute for the real solution to a major environmental change that requires a whole new adaptation for us to ever survive. Ever since this disordering of our world, and us, by a dark force alien to God's original design it has become impossible for us to get back to our God created raison d'être. In order to survive the here and now we must adapt to what now exists that is counter to the original design. To adaptively attempt to perfect what we are now is such a far cry from what it was, it is tantamount to the cross species leap of evolutionary theory. There is an elusive missing link in the perfectionism theory like trying to bridge the evolutionary gap between fish and man.

It takes a miracle working Creator God to bridge that chasm. But we have to believe and accept that the God of Creation took the primordial soup, mud if you will, of this earth and created a man and by the life giving miracle of his own breath, breathed life into it. It is restoration to that original design that we need. And it will take no less of a miracle to set it, and us, right. Unfortunately, we are but mud in comparison to where God wants us to be. Any efforts toward perfection that we can achieve in our current state of being results only in better mud. It is only within God's miracle working power that He can turn these mud sculptures into living beings as He intends us to be.

And IMHO perfectionism is like an evolutionary dead end. It does not achieve the restoration that we need, or even get us close enough to be a passable facsimile of what God intends. No matter what, we must have the breath of life breathed into us, both physically and spiritually.

Tom

[Woody]

I asked God about this issue of being perfect. And He assured me that I was perfect. Got it straight from the horse's mouth.

[cardw]

If no one knows what perfection is, it seems pointless to even have an opinion about something no one can even define. I kind of like the last words of the Samurai in the movie, "The last Samurai." He had been looking all his life for the perfect cherry blossom and as he was on death's door he looked up at all the cherry blossoms flowing past and realized that "they are all perfect."

[Aliensanctuary]

What the LORD wanted in the people of Israel during their period of homelessness in the days of Moses was obedience. Sadly, they wouldn't or couldn't do anything without complaining, creating the conditions for disobedience and rebellion. The LORD couldn't use rebels to establish a nation to teach the world his laws for the planet.

Perfect human obedience will not likely occur until the Last Days, when the 2 Witnesses and the 3 Angels explain everything clearly and the Spirit is given to those who can hear the Voice of the LORD. Only those facing death by sword or guillotine will have a clear conscience because they reach the point where they refuse to disobey him. For them, it is better to die than to sin, better to be poor and hungry than to participate in the fatal pleasures of Babylon.

For us, polluted by our upbringing and surroundings, we are highly unlikely to reach perfection, that is, perfect obedience to the LORD, because we are weak, with only a book to guide us, and we have too many distractions and unholy desires that prevent us from creating a suitable home for the telepathic Spirit of God within us.

[Aliensanctuary]

If we define evolution as adaptation of life to changing environments or circumstances, we can all agree with that. If we define evolution as life creating itself, then transforming one species of animal into another species, that's a bit of a stretch to believe.

Our religions, too, adapt to changing circumstances. Our religions, then, "evolve", or change. They may not get better, they just change with time. Adventism, too, has changed since it was founded by misguided individuals who set dates for the arrival of the Anointed One.

The goal of all religions, distorted and cruel as some of them are, should be to listen for the Voice of God, join his team, then work as recruiters, enlisting as many of our fellow human beings as we can, encouraging them to serve the LORD by obeying his commands. We know that the God of those who blow up themselves and others, creating death and destruction, is not the God we want to follow. Mass murderers eliminate their victim's ability to change for the better.

In the end, our religions will be swept away when the veil is lifted and we can see reality clearly. Nearly everything that happened on this dark world will be forgotten, purged from the memories of the Chosen Ones who suffered through it. Our tendency to complain or rebel will be washed away in the healing waters of the River of Life.

That's where the real adventure begins, a life with no more evil thoughts or acts that cause harm to others. Now that's perfection.

[cardw]

As soon as one accepts the idea of miracles all rational systems become meaningless. Now if "moral" behavior is ultimately the most advantageous way to survive in the universe, then yes, evolution might produce some creature particularly adapted to survive in this universe.

Some work by John Forbes Nash in mathematics seems to suggest that co-operation that allows everyone to thrive does produce more favorable outcomes. It has been claimed by some that this proves that selfishness is counter to survival.

If this is the case then one might suggest that the culture that learns how to be less selfish will more likely survive.

[karl]

I don't think your first sentence above is true. I think rational systems can peacefully coexist with miracles. Furthermore, I believe miracles can be detected and incorporated into rational systems.

The thing most scientists like the least about miracles is that they cannot be controlled for selfish purposes.

It is true that the the culture that learns how to be less selfish will be more likely to survive.

[karl]

...

[cardw]

I was talking about things like not stealing and co-operation among all involved parties to the benefit of all. We can already see that a culture that is dishonest is doomed to stay poor, because it's impossible to establish any cultural co-operative projects such as public transportation, public parks, public education, efficient energy production, and a number of advantages a good infrastructure provides that capitalism alone doesn't seem to be able to pull together.

I know that my business has grown as I help other businesses thrive because of the cross referral of overflow and a larger body of specialty services.

I was simply exploring the idea that an evolutionary process might produce a more ethical culture because ethics help a culture survive. Studies on violence have shown that we live in one of the least violent times of earth's recorded history. One's chances of experiencing violence are far lower today than the middle ages and earlier.

So, unless these aren't examples of new ideas, I don't know to communicate in this forum.

[cardw]

The reason miracles trump all rational systems is that miracles don't obey any rules. One can simply appeal to the miracle solution thus negating any predictable rational system. In other words there is no accountability to intellectual honesty.

It has been claimed many times that such and such is unsolvable or unknowable and yet certain individuals or groups of individuals have been able to solve these apparent impossible barriers through the use of rational systems.

It has become more and more obvious that there is an underlying order to many things in our world. And we can't simply claim that something is not possible just because we don't understand it or that some miracle is in place to hold it together.

There are layers on layers of complexity, much like we would expect with a long evolutionary process. Are we going to be able to solve all problems in our life time? Of course not, but rationality has a far better track record than miracles.

So, when someone claims that a miracle happened, all discussion stops because there is no accountability to external verification. Miracles are simply based on claims.

[karl]

...