Perfectionism and the Theory of Evolution

[Tom Wetmore]

Perhaps the reason that miracles are beyond our rational verification is that they follow rules outside the dimensions of our known reality. String theory suggests as many as 7 dimensions beyond the 4 within human perception (3D + time) for a total of 11 dimensions in the universe. There are likely many natural rules of the universe simply beyond human science's present ability to ascertain. When Scripture describes a person's eyes as being opened so that they can see things not normally humanly visible, a new dimension could well have simply been open to their perception following rules outside of human ability to perceive time and space. A miracle of instant healing could well tap the resources of dimensions outside of our own that have rules that allow for acceleration of what we would know as time or an entirely different scale of time. (Read the time theory topic...) When perceived through our sense of time, what may have taken considerable alternate dimensional time would simply appear to us as instantaneous.

This is interesting, but may be moving this discussion off topic...

[karl]

Miracles are verifiable. By definition, they cannot be generated by humans. Science doesn't like them because it can't generate or control them. But science most definitely believes in miracles. If ever there was a miracle it would have to be the Big Bang producing ordered systems.

[karl]

Where are the "rules" posted for any given discussion on ClubAdventist?

[Tom Wetmore]

The one rule for the Townhall-Original Thoughts forum is found at the top of the topic menu for this subforum (You will see the blue line at the top of the navigation menu bar - Club Adventist Forum » Forums » Main Discussion Topics » Townhall - Original thoughts)

The underlying philosophy of this forum can be found in the locked thread at the top of the menu that shows why this forum was created. I was made the moderator since it was essentially my idea with helpful collaboration with Bravus, so I reserve the right to set the tone as non-argumentative and non-political. Those who feel a need to argue and rant about political topics have opportunity to do so elsewhere. Likewise, those who feel it is their moral duty to engage in strident apologetics for their beliefs can do so elsewhere. This forum is likely to greatly frustrate that mindset.

In the future when raising this sort of off-topic question please jsut sned me a PM so as not to disrupt the flow of the conversaiton at hand.

Thanks,

Tom as moderator

[cardw]

If miracles are simply things too complex to understand then they aren't miracles. If something is generated using other dimensional physics, then it's not a miracle, but simply based on a more complex rational system.

Now, to me, sinless perfection doesn't even classify as anything since we don't even know what sinless perfection is exactly and we are claiming that this unknown quality will be created by a god someday in the saved.

I think if we step back and ask, "What would sinless perfection do for us?" we might actually be able to identify what we really are looking forward to and find that it is actually achievable.

I would think the underlying motivation for sinless perfection would be the prevention of suffering and by implication death.

If death and suffering were gone I think we would have to be in a completely different universe. The universe we are in now requires death because the cycle of life depends on it. Imagine if plants didn't die. We would be overrun.

And while I don't like suffering, suffering has been one vehicle for developing empathy. And when people suffer together and overcome there is a bond that is formed that no other experience provides.

But as long as we perceive the world as good/bad/right/wrong, these kinds of things can't be appreciated. The closest thing that Christianity has to this idea is that all things work together for good. This would imply logically that all things are good, which echoes the creation myth in genesis when god saw that all was good. But this is difficult to accept in a culture raised on "happy" or what I would call shallow endings.

[Tom Wetmore]

The ancients often described natural occurrences that they couldn't understand or explain as miracles, acts of God or the gods of mysterious supernatural spirits or powers. We are just perhaps more advanced in our knowledge and have scientific explanations for many of those things that would have been described as miracles. Perhaps in the future we will have explanations for more and greater miracles.

I have to agree that a huge problem with the quest for sinless perfection is more than a little ambiguous. It's a most frustrating moving and illusive target. Of course, as you can see from my signature quotes, I don't think sinless perfection really is the end objective anyway since it is far to shallow on objective.

[cardw]

Ervin Laszlo is a philosopher, systems theorist, integral theorist, and also happens to be a classical pianist. One of the most interesting ideas that he has proposed is that evolution is an informed process.

He uses the word Akasha, the Sanskrit and Vedic term for space, to refer to the field called the "quantum vacuum" in quantum physics. This is the field where matter and energy come the closest to zero. In actuality there is no absolute zero within the universe that we know of, but the most interesting things happen at this near zero point. We have observed what appears to be fleeting electromagnetic waves and particles that pop into and out of existence.

He has theorized that the "quantum vacuum" is the fundamental energy and information-carrying field that informs not just the current universe, but all universes past and present or the metaverse.

He also describes how such an informational field can explain why our universe appears to be fine-tuned to form galaxies and conscious lifeforms. He also has reasoned that evolution is an informed, not random, process.

He believes that the hypothesis solves several problems that emerge from quantum physics, especially nonlocality and quantum entanglement.

In some sense this is scientific miracle talk, but it does give a more detailed mechanism by which consciousness may interact with matter and energy. Whether this consciousness is a meta consciousness with a will or some meta machine is unknowable.

The point is if we want to survive, coming into alignment with the natural order of the universe would seem to bring some advantage. And it would appear the more we understand this order, the better chances we have of survival. And hopefully, not only survive, but thrive.

[Tom Wetmore]

The changes at near absolute zero in the quantum vacuum sounds a bit like what happens at the temperature of absolute zero, or as nearly absolute zero as has been reached in a laboratory. The speed of light actually slows down to a near stopping point and can be manipulated, physically moved from one place to another.