Have you noticed lately....?

[Twilight]

....How many people with "new light" there are about?

And that they seem determined to throw out the plain statements of Scripture to "prove" that light?

Then there is the watering down of the SOP, so that that can be thrown out (if not even complete outright rejection).

I have noticed different groups with different agendas on this board, and they are so "loud" with their "new light".

--------------------------

My questions are:

As a relatively new Adventist, is there an increase in this phenomena?

Does the internet and this board give credence and opportunity to these "groups" they would not normally have?

Does this board draw them like "moths" to a flame?

Your thoughts?

God bless,

Mark

[Dr. Rich]

Hey Mark, people here are on different levels of learning which probably makes it seem strange for a new Adventist. Being an Adventist for over 60 years I have experienced many different opinions and views with the most drastic event being in Colorado at Glacier View in the mid 80's. I lived a mile from there so I attended and was amazed how the GC and the leaders made war with Mr. Ford. It was then that I understood that any attempt to change the status quo would be met with strong resistance. The GC tends to want people to be happily unaware of real problems with the doctrine.

But even EGW said there will be a shaking some day—which goes along with the warnings to the Kingdom found in Rev. 1 and 3. Therefore you may want to buckle your seat belt and hang on for the ride. I am just a student too, but I have questions that no one wants or seems to want to answer. They just want me to shut up and stay with the status quo—the same way the GC treated Desmond. (How sad!) So feel free to ask your questions and provide evidence for answers to others questions. Welcome!

Dr. Rich (SDA)

[Woody]

From the beginning of our church's history there has been those who want to hold to old traditions and those who are receptive to growth. The old die hards were resistive to our prophet's new light. She heard the same objections I hear here.

But ... there will be a shaking time when those who are willing to listen to the voice of God and those who are not will be made known.

[John317]

....How many people with "new light" there are about?

And that they seem determined to throw out the plain statements of Scripture to "prove" that light?

Then there is the watering down of the SOP, so that that can be thrown out (if not even complete outright rejection).

I have noticed different groups with different agendas on this board, and they are so "loud" with their "new light".

You have good eyes and good understanding, Mark.

Quote:

My questions are:

As a relatively new Adventist, is there an increase in this phenomena?

Yes, there is, and it is exaggerated by the Internet. You get the sense that there are more of them than there actually are.

Quote:

Does the internet and this board give credence and opportunity to these "groups" they would not normally have?

Yes, most definitely.

Quote:

Does this board draw them like "moths" to a flame?

Again, yes, it does.

[Twilight]

I think that is the biggest factor in this, it would appear, like you have said John, that there is more of them than there is in reality.

The most dangerous aspect though, is that they then make it very difficult for those that have genuine "new light", or "old light" rediscovered (which is what it really is in many cases), to get heard.

Threads on practical Christian living often get shouted down I find.

Mark

[Woody]

In the end .... the dividing point will be over the Righteousness of Christ. Some will accept it and some will adventure out on their own merits.

[Twilight]

In the end .... the dividing point will be over the Righteousness of Christ. Some will accept it and some will adventure out on their own merits.

It will be finer than that for many.

It will be those that reject the need for sanctification as part of the impartation of that righteousness.

They will throw out sanctification, the Law, Christian Standards and in reality Gods Grace.

Just so that they can work "iniquity"...

Once saved always saved will be their cry.

Mark

[Woody]

Some along with Satan will think they can make it on their own works rather than the sacrifice of Jesus. Some will color it as the "works of Jesus" "IN THEM" that will save them rather than the works that Christ did on this earth. Satan is good at making a counterfeit.

[Amelia]

Quote:

Threads on practical Christian living often get shouted down I find.

Please explain. Which threads are you referring to?

[Twilight]

Quote:

Threads on practical Christian living often get shouted down I find.

Please explain. Which threads are you referring to?

Hello Amelia. :-)

A number of threads I have tried to post in the past. :-)

[Woody]

Some only like to post when their ideas are in the majority. Others feel that diversity of thought is healthy.

[Bravus]

Heh, and in this Twilight/Redwood dialogue (and I hasten to say that although many times I disagree with my friend Redwood, in this case I think he has the right side of the coin (though my support may worry him in itself!)) is contained the whole of the debate.

Every Adventist Christian believes in justification by faith and in the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus as the only path to salvation. And every Adventist Christian also believes that God working in our lives will bring us more and more into his grace and his will, so that our lives will more closely approach His ideals for us.

But in the emphasis on one or other of those two doctrines - both of which are correct and both of which all subscribe to - there are a million posts and a million arguments and at least half a million fights.

If only people realised that they are in fundamental agreement, but using slightly different language, and weighting down one end of the seesaw (teeter-totter?) more than the other...

[phkrause]

Yes Redwood, Jesus will put his live in front of ours before the father.

pk

[Woody]

Heh, and in this Twilight/Redwood dialogue (and I hasten to say that although many times I disagree with my friend Redwood, in this case I think he has the right side of the coin (though my support may worry him in itself!)) is contained the whole of the debate.

Every Adventist Christian believes in justification by faith and in the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus as the only path to salvation. And every Adventist Christian also believes that God working in our lives will bring us more and more into his grace and his will, so that our lives will more closely approach His ideals for us.

But in the emphasis on one or other of those two doctrines - both of which are correct and both of which all subscribe to - there are a million posts and a million arguments and at least half a million fights.

If only people realised that they are in fundamental agreement, but using slightly different language, and weighting down one end of the seesaw (teeter-totter?) more than the other...

My goodness Bravus .... I don't believe I have ever heard it put so clearly. We done Aussie. And hey .... I think we usually agree on spiritual matters. You are just squewed on politics.

TU

[Amelia]

Quote:

squewed

[Woody]

Okay ... so my spellin' ain't so good. You might even say it is skewed.

[Amelia]

Hello Amelia. :-)

A number of threads I have tried to post in the past. :-)

LOL, hummmm that doesn't do me a lot of good. I tend not to remember alot of past threads. Way too many.

But I have to say that my idea of "practical Christian living" is far different than theology/doctrine debates. Take Shanes thread about his dishwasher that turned into a topic on money stewardship. Money:spending, saving and tithing would be a practical Christian living topic. Have you posted any threads of the like that were "shouted" down?

[Amelia]

I laughed Red, because if you say it out loud the way it's spelled, it's a totally different word. Just too hilarious.

[Woody]

I'm big enough to be laughed at. Don't worry.

[jasd]

QR frame:

I’ve no brief with “new light”, but welcome it, as the concept of ‘new light’ is promised in Holy Writ and should be subscribed-to by the consecrated servant of Jesus Christ. So, why should anyone

feel threatened by thoughts re Writ proffered by another? There is something regrettable in that. Those thoughts either have their origin of Gd and will prove correct or their origin lies elsewhere and will come to naught.

Yumpin’ yiminy crickeet! rather than with an East wind, sibilance, and murmuring (so much of it lately!), why does not anyone offended simply drag out the Holy Book and refute what he or she does not agree with? Isn’t that the mature thing?

As far as posting to abstracts re Xtian living so-called, who’s stopping whom from contributing to ongoing threads? or even beginning his or her own threads?

Ignore the threads that frustrate and ignore the member of the list one just cannot abide...

[Twilight]

Heh, and in this Twilight/Redwood dialogue (and I hasten to say that although many times I disagree with my friend Redwood, in this case I think he has the right side of the coin (though my support may worry him in itself!)) is contained the whole of the debate.

Every Adventist Christian believes in justification by faith and in the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus as the only path to salvation. And every Adventist Christian also believes that God working in our lives will bring us more and more into his grace and his will, so that our lives will more closely approach His ideals for us.

But in the emphasis on one or other of those two doctrines - both of which are correct and both of which all subscribe to - there are a million posts and a million arguments and at least half a million fights.

If only people realised that they are in fundamental agreement, but using slightly different language, and weighting down one end of the seesaw (teeter-totter?) more than the other...

Except my friend, there is a fundamental difference between being saved from your sins and being saved in your sins...

Those that believe the second option, will hear the words: "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity"...

That is how important it is.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Hello Amelia. :-)

A number of threads I have tried to post in the past. :-)

LOL, hummmm that doesn't do me a lot of good. I tend not to remember alot of past threads. Way too many.

But I have to say that my idea of "practical Christian living" is far different than theology/doctrine debates. Take Shanes thread about his dishwasher that turned into a topic on money stewardship. Money:spending, saving and tithing would be a practical Christian living topic. Have you posted any threads of the like that were "shouted" down?

Let us just say they were hit over the head with a club, bundled into a car and whisked away at high speed...

Mark :-)

[Woody]

QR frame:

I’ve no brief with “new light”, but welcome it, as the concept of ‘new light’ is promised in Holy Writ and should be subscribed-to by the consecrated servant of Jesus Christ. So, why should anyone

feel threatened by thoughts re Writ proffered by another? There is something regrettable in that. Those thoughts either have their origin of Gd and will prove correct or their origin lies elsewhere and will come to naught.

Yumpin’ yiminy crickeet! rather than with an East wind, sibilance, and murmuring (so much of it lately!), why does not anyone offended simply drag out the Holy Book and refute what he or she does not agree with? Isn’t that the mature thing?

As far as posting to abstracts re Xtian living so-called, who’s stopping whom from contributing to ongoing threads? or even beginning his or her own threads?

Ignore the threads that frustrate and ignore the member of the list one just cannot abide...

Well said jasd.

[Tom Wetmore]

...there is a fundamental difference between being saved from your sins and being saved in your sins...

This "distinction" is a straw man of a label slapped on the forehead of those who may disagree about what salvation is all about. It is one of the least useful and most misleading distinctions in this great debate over righteousness by faith. Responding to the accusation that "you must believe you are saved in your sins" is like trying to successfully answer the question, "So when did you stop beating your wife?"

Whatever you mean and believe by the phrase "being saved from your sins" does not mean that anyone differing from your view of salvation automatically must believe only one other alternative that one must believe they are saved in their sins. This straw man argument frames the whole debate absurdly wrong.

Let's get this straight. Both sides of this debate believe that the whole idea and point of salvation is to save us from sin, all sin, the world of sin, all sinfulness, our own sins, our own sinful nature, the root and consequences of sin - all of it completely without a single subatomic particle left to infect humanity and this world ever again.

The issue is over how and when this is accomplished both universally and in our own life. And the whole eradication of sin has simply not been fully accomplished and will not be until the earth is recreated anew. We are forced to wait until sometime in the future for that which is not yet fully accomplished. That is why it is called righteousness by faith. But that does not mean that our assurance of salvation is any less sure. Jesus sealed that deal when he walked out of the tomb on his own two feet. It just calls out for the patience of the saints. And trust in the One who makes it sure. "Believe on the Lord Jesus the Savior/Messiah/Christ and you will be (future tense) saved."

Here is the analogy - A drowning man is saved, rescued, from that which is killing him, the water, at the moment the Lifeguard grabs hold of him and starts dragging him to shore. Is he safe yet? Yes and no. He is still in the water, but he is in good hands. It is still 200 yards to the beach. The waves are huge and threaten to rip him out of the firm grip of the Lifeguard. But the Lifeguard shouts in his ear over the raging sea, "I will not let you go and I have never lost anyone that I have in my hands. Just relax and stop struggling. Let me do all the work now and I will see that you get to the other side safely." But they are still in the water. That man is saved from the water while still in the water. But he has been assured by the Lifeguard that he will make it safely home. We aren't home yet. We are still in the water but saved from it.

[Woody]

Great Post Tom. Let me just add something written by an SDA pastor that I think is good on this very topic. Please excuse the length. Here is the link to his web site. http://prophecywatch.biz/wst_page8.html

I've heard him speak and he is excellent:

We are saved from our sins and not in them?

Pastor Tom Hughes

As an Adventist I have often heard ministers say we are “Saved FROM our sins, not IN our sins”. This has often inspired more confusion and needless guilt than it has motivated people to live a more sanctified life. Those who say this often are perfectionists who believe they can reach a state of sinless perfection before Jesus comes through character development. If they mean our sins are “taken away” in the sense that Jesus died for them, and through justification we no longer have “our sins”, then I say AMEN! If they are saying we should not cherish sin and practice iniquity I say Amen. However if they mean God removes all sinning from sinners before the Second Coming, I have to object to this distortion. The Bible teaches that we have sin, and that we are sinful until Jesus comes. All have sinned, there is none good but God and Paul had not yet arrived when he died. Paul said that nothing good dwelled in him and that he was a wretched sinner. (“Oh wretched man that I AM” not was[ii]) If the Bible admonishes us not to say we have no sin,[iii] then we must therefore be saved in sin. Romans 5: 8 reads: “But God demonstrates His own love toward us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

This ground has already been taken and staked out in the 27 Fundamentals of our faith, “People can never claim that perfection independently…Apart from Christ human beings cannot obtain righteousness” “Some incorrectly believe the ultimate perfection that glorification will bring is already available to humans…Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent” “Neither Christlike character traits nor faultless behavior is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteousness comes from one righteous Man, Jesus, and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ’s gift of righteousness; we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous (Rom. 3:10); independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. (Isa. 64:6; see also Dan 9:7, 11, 20; 1 Cor. 1: 30)[iv] As Paul and our church has stated, we ARE great sinners, but Jesus is a great Savior!

Ellen White writes that the noblest and gentlest among men are but a faint reflection of Christ’s character[v], and that only the perfect flawless character of Christ is sufficient to merit salvation. She also writes categorically that “No one is perfect but Jesus”. [vi] So for ministers to suggest we have to equal Christ’s accomplishments by producing a flawless character before Jesus steps out of the sanctuary is totally false.

Let’s review some of the statements that make is clear we are still sinners, with a sinful nature, in need of forgiveness and grace.

“The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. SM, 1:344, 345.

Those whose hearts have been moved by the convicting Spirit of God see that there is nothing good in themselves. They see that all they have ever done is mingled with self and sin. Like the poor publican, they stand afar off, not daring to lift up so much as their eyes to heaven, and cry, "God, be merciful to me the sinner." Luke 18:13, R.V., margin. And they are blessed. {MB 7, 8}

Jesus loves to have us come to Him, just as we are--sinful, helpless, dependent. We can do nothing, absolutely nothing, to commend ourselves to divine favor. We must not trust at all to ourselves or to our good works; but when as erring, sinful beings we come to Christ, we may find rest in His love. FW 38

Neither Joseph, Daniel, nor any of the apostles claimed to be without sin. Men who have … acknowledged themselves to be sinners, unworthy of His great favors. They have felt their weakness and, sorrowful for their sins, have tried to copy the pattern Jesus Christ. {FW 43}

The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. SC 64

The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ. … A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power.” SC 64, 65

Men whom God has honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ. AA 561

Apart from Christ we have no merit, no righteousness. Our sinfulness, our weakness, our human imperfection make it impossible that we should appear before God unless we are clothed in Christ's spotless righteousness.” God’s Amazing Grace p.183

God declares, "There is none righteous, no, not one" (Rom 3:10). All have the same sinful nature. All are liable to make mistakes. No one is perfect. The Lord Jesus died for the erring that they might be forgiven. It is not our work to condemn. Christ did not come to condemn, but to save.” In Heavenly Places p. 292

From these statements we can see that Ellen White agreed with the Apostle Paul in acknowledging that we have a sinful nature and that we must never consider ourselves to have arrived at a point of sinlessness. She makes it crystal clear in this statement: “So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience.” AA 560

So until Jesus comes, we will need God’s saving grace while we are “IN” sin and while he is helping us to separate from our sinfulness through the process of sanctification. Until we receive our new nature, we must consider ourselves sinners, being saved by grace, and transformed into his image. That total transformation will come, but not as long as Satan reigns and we have self to subdue! Some paint a picture of sinners removing sin from their experience until they reach a perfection and sinlessness equal to Christ’s character in this life and of removing sin to the point of not sinning anymore. However, Ellen White paints a picture of the believer’s experience that is entirely different from this. She paints a picture of believers who find that the closer they get to Jesus, the more they see their own faults and imperfection and actually seem to get worse![vii] But according to the false teachers, you will see your perfection grow until you reach total Christlikeness when Jesus steps out of the Sanctuary. This is nothing short of blasphemy. Ellen White puts clarifies the point this way:

“I ask, How can I present this matter as it is? The Lord Jesus imparts all the powers, all the grace, all the penitence, all the inclination, all the pardon of sins, in presenting His righteousness for man to grasp by living faith--which is also the gift of God. If you would gather together everything that is good and holy and noble and lovely in man and then present the subject to the angels of God as acting a part in the salvation of the human soul or in merit, the proposition would be rejected as treason. {FW 24.1}

I’m happy Jesus is able to save us in, and forever from sin in all its forms! Christ is able to subdue all things unto himself! Let us proclaim with the angels in the very throne room of God; Praise to You, oh Lamb of God because “You alone are worthy”! Rev. 15: 4

1 JN 1: 8; LK 18: 19; Isaiah 64: 6; Rom. 3: 0-12; 20-23; PS 14; Philippians 3: 3, 8-9

[ii] Romans 7: 18, 24

[iii] 1 John 1: 8

[iv] 27 Fundamentals of the Faith pp. 127-131

[v] MB 49

[vi] TIMKH 136

[vii] SC 64, 65