Obedience to God's Commandments the Fruit of Faith

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The commandment assumes a love for self. And it commands us to love others with that same love we have for ourselves. It does not say love others INSTEAD OF self.

It says to take that self-love and direct it towards your neighbor....If you are doing that there's no time for you....That's "instead"....

Further more, look at Christ's life. That's agape. At the incarnation Christ, as God, took upon Himself our life indwelt with the love of self. What did He do with our bent to self?

Answer: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." To deny self is to live for others. Christ said He was the servant of all....Further more when someone offered to follow Him, Jesus said: "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." And EGW states that there wasn't a trace of selfishness in His life. He didn't live for Himself...He lived and died for His enemies. Where's the self-love in that? I see self-denial....

"Bring the full tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need." Mal 3:10 ESV

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The Bible says it in English as plain as any language could express it, that we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

Again, it doesn't say love self...love neighbor....That would be two commands, but there's only one. And you call yourself a commandment keeper....What you are keeping is sin! Self-love is sin.....It's the opposite of self-denial.

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation." [EGW]

Plain enough? You know what self-love does? It goes to college to make big bucks and then buys itself a nice home....Where's the love for the neighbor? Ah, there's no room because you are too busy loving yourself....You are too blind to see this!

"You shall love your neighbor AS you love yourself." Lev 19:18 HOW?

"When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neighter shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner. I am the LORD your God.

You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another. You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.

You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired servant shall not remain with you all night until the morning. You shall not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall fear your God: I am the LORD.

You shall do no injustice in the court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD.

You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, BUT YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF: I AM THE LORD." Lev 19:9-19 ESV.

"So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, FOR THIS IS THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS." Plain English.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The Bible says it in English as plain as any language could express it, that we are to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.

Again, it doesn't say love self...love neighbor....That would be two commands, but there's only one. And you call yourself a commandment keeper....What you are keeping is sin! Self-love is sin.....It's the opposite of self-denial.

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation." [EGW]

What? SELF-preservation? Yet you say absolutely no thought of self?

Plain enough? You know what self-love does? It goes to college to make big bucks and then buys itself a nice home....Where's the love for the neighbor? Ah, there's no room because you are too busy loving yourself....You are too blind to see this!

"Everyone also to whom God has given wealth and possessions and power to enjoy them, and to accept his lot and rejoice in his toil - this is the gift of God." Eccl 5:19 ESV.

[Robert]

You are using a paraphrased Bible, Also you are not looking at Christ's life. His life fulfills the law....His life is one of agape.

You go ahead and enjoy your goodies, but do it under grace because under law this self-love makes you a wretched sinner!!! Just cease with the holy joe stuff because you ain't....Neither are you a law keeper....

[Gerr]

You are using a paraphrased Bible, Also you are not looking at Christ's life. His life fulfills the law....His life is one of agape.

Paraphrase??? The preface to the ESV has this to say regarding the translation.

"The ESV stands in the classic mainstream of English Bible translations over the past half millennium. The fountainhead of that stream was William Tyndale's NT of 1526; marking its course were the KJV of 1611, English Revised Veersion of 1885, the ASV of 1901,, and the RSV of 1952 and 1971. In that stream, faithfulness to the text and vigorous pursuit of accuracy were combined with simplicity, beauty, and dignity of expression. Our goal has been to carry forward this legacy for a new century.

To this end each word and phrase in the ESV has been carefuylly weighed against the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, to ensure the fullest accuracy and clarity and to avoid under-translating or overlooking any nuance of the original test.......

The ESV is an "essentially literal" translation that seeks as far as possible to capture the precise wording of the original text and the personal style of each Bible writer. As such, its emphasis is on "word-for-word" correspondence, at the same time taking into account differences of grammar, syntax, and idiom between current literary English and the original languages."

Quote:

You go ahead and enjoy your goodies, but do it under grace because under law this self-love makes you a wretched sinner!!! Just cease with the holy joe stuff because you ain't....Neither are you a law keeper....

I am not wealthy, but I shall enjoy what God has blessed me with in accordance with His word:

"Everyone also to whom God has given wealth and possessions and power to enjoy them, and to accept his lot and rejoice in his toil - THIS IS THE GIFT OF GOD." Eccl 5:19 ESV.

IF you really believe God requires every believer to not own anything, of all people you should start with yourself! NOT everybody else! To tell others what to do and not do it yourself is the height of hypocrisy. Like preachers who preach against homosexuality or adultery while carrying on that lifestyle on the sly. Or politicians that campaign on fiscal responsibility while sticking it to the poor taxpayer on their junkets to foreign countries!

[Robert]

"Everyone also to whom God has given wealth and possessions and power to enjoy them, and to accept his lot and rejoice in his toil - THIS IS THE GIFT OF GOD." Eccl 5:19 ESV.

Context:

10 Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless. 11 As goods increase, so do those who consume them. And what benefit are they to the owner except to feast his eyes on them? 12 The sleep of a laborer is sweet, whether he eats little or much, but the abundance of a rich man permits him no sleep. 13 I have seen a grievous evil under the sun: wealth hoarded to the harm of its owner, 14 or wealth lost through some misfortune, so that when he has a son there is nothing left for him. 15 Naked a man comes from his mother's womb, and as he comes, so he departs. He takes nothing from his labor that he can carry in his hand. 16 This too is a grievous evil: As a man comes, so he departs, and what does he gain, since he toils for the wind? 17 All his days he eats in darkness, with great frustration, affliction and anger.

18 Then I realized that it is good and proper for a man to eat and drink, and to find satisfaction in his toilsome labor under the sun during the few days of life God has given him--for this is his lot. 19 Moreover, when God gives any man wealth and possessions, and enables him to enjoy them, to accept his lot and be happy in his work--this is a gift of God. 20 He seldom reflects on the days of his life, because God keeps him occupied with gladness of heart.

Okay, there's the whole context. First of all this is not a command of God. The last time that I checked God hasn't deposited any money in my bank account. God blesses us with life, health and protection, even the unrighteous, but since we are bent to self we build wealth for ourselves. Some more, some less.

But the subject is what is obedience? If you are talking about law obedience then living Christ's life of unselfish love is the fulfillment of the law. Here you and I fall short because there's self-seeking, self-love and self-interest in our lives. Not so with Jesus. Hence, as Paul states, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (defined by Moses as His goodness...His love). Therefore unless you are living His life you have no right to call yourself a commandment keeper....That's my point!

[Richard Holbrook]

Robert, how come every time Gerry asks you if you've given up all your goodies and taken your own advise, you never answer. You just keep telling him what a sinner he is and how he's not keeping the commandments, and on and on.

Maybe if you just answer his question, you guys can be done with this. What is this a war between North and South Carolina?

[Parade Orange]

IF you really believe God requires every believer to not own anything, of all people you should start with yourself! NOT everybody else! To tell others what to do and not do it yourself is the height of hypocrisy. Like preachers who preach against homosexuality or adultery while carrying on that lifestyle on the sly. Or politicians that campaign on fiscal responsibility while sticking it to the poor taxpayer on their junkets to foreign countries!

RoberT said this! [points up with a lipstick red laser}

amen!

[Robert]

Robert, how come every time Gerry asks you if you've given up all your goodies and taken your own advise, you never answer. You just keep telling him what a sinner he is and how he's not keeping the commandments, and on and on.

Gerry, like many legalistic SDA, claims something he is not: A keeper of the law!

On the other hand I claim no such thing....I know I'm a sinner, albeit I'm experiencing a change....However, I am not living Christ's life and I know it. I'm not deceived in this area, but the majority of SDA are....

That's why EGW said, "Self-righteousness is not the wedding garment. A failure to follow the clear light of truth is our fearful danger. The message to the Laodicean church reveals our condition as a people." [RH 12-15-1904]

Your self-righteousness is nauseating to the Lord Jesus Christ. “I know your deeds, that thou art neither cold nor hot; I would that thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of My mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.” These words apply to the churches and to many of those in positions of trust in the work of God. [7BC 962]

As I've always maintained, the SDA denomination is not the remnant, those who keep the commandments of God, etc....The SDA church is Laodecia, a people deceived by their own self-righteousness. What they need to accept is the robe of Christ's righteousness.....Until repentance comes the gospel will not be restored....

[Robert]

IF you really believe God requires every believer to not own anything, of all people you should start with yourself! NOT everybody else! To tell others what to do and not do it yourself is the height of hypocrisy.

amen!

I'm not the one claiming to be righteous...a member of the remnant church...a commandment keeper...but you guys are! Blind guides....You are the one playing the hypocrite...look in the mirror. I'm merely telling you what the law requires: complete selflessness...no self-seeking and self-love.

[Robert]

Robert, how come every time Gerry asks you if you've given up all your goodies and taken your own advise, you never answer.

Gerry knows why....I've repeated often....I'll do it again for your amusement:

But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. [Romans 7:6]

[Richard Holbrook]

Gerry, like many legalistic SDA, claims something he is not: A keeper of the law!

On the other hand I claim no such thing....I know I'm a sinner, albeit I'm experiencing a change....However, I am not living Christ's life and I know it. I'm not deceived in this area, but the majority of SDA are....

I'm sure Gerry knows he's not perfect, without you telling him. I never saw him claim perfection or sinlessness.

[Woody]

Hey Robert .... I was going to PM you a nice compliment but you are over the limit. It would appear that lots of people have been paying you compliments lately. Don't hold onto them all ... delete a few so you can get some new ones.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gerry, like many legalistic SDA, claims something he is not: A keeper of the law!

On the other hand I claim no such thing....I know I'm a sinner, albeit I'm experiencing a change....However, I am not living Christ's life and I know it. I'm not deceived in this area, but the majority of SDA are....

I'm sure Gerry knows he's not perfect, without you telling him. I never saw him claim perfection or sinlessness.

Then he isn't a law keeper....He is a sinner saved by grace alone....

[John317]

You are using a paraphrased Bible,

Rob, if you are talking about the English Standard Version, I think you'll find that it is actually one of the more literal translations available today.

Compare a few verses of ESV and New American Standard with two genuine paraphrases:

Phil. 2: 6-7--

1) ESV--

6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

2) NASB--

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

3) Contemporary English Version:

Christ was truly God.

But he did not try to remain equal with God.

Instead he gave up everything and became a slave,

when he became

like one of us.

4) The Message:

He had equal status with God but didn't think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human!

[Robert]

I stand corrected....

[John317]

OK, so which translation or translations do you prefer? It's NASB, right? That is one of my favorites too.

By the way, check out the NASB and ESV at 1 Cor. 10: 9. The ESV is correct and the NASB is lagging behind the latest scholarship on that text. Turns out the KJV had it right all along! If the JWs were consistent, their translation would read "Christ" in the place of "Jehovah."

[LifeHiscost]

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:24

[John317]

... it is by faith we are justified. It is by the works of the Law that we are sanctified (or set apart for a holy purpose)

What is the difference, if any, between works of faith and works of law?

Aren't "works of law" always legalism?

[Richard Holbrook]

Not if you're under the power of the Holy Sirit.

[LifeHiscost]

I keep the commandments because I love the Savior, and for what he has done for me. He says if you love me keep my commandments. And I believe that Gerry mentioned another thing that Christ said. If Jesus could come down here to this earth and die for me, then I should be able to follow 10 simple rules for him, not because I have to but because I love him.

pk

Good post. The first underlined above, in some translations reads as a promise, if not fulfilled now it definitely will in God's good timing.

The second underlined, is revealed as giving at least some of the reason why the Law of liberty is a joy.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

"1 John 5:3 NKJV

" If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."John 14:15 NASB

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith"Hebrews 12:2 KJV

Blessings!

[John317]

Genuine faith from the Holy Spirit produces works, and conforms to the law of God, but is that the same as "works of law"? Or is that "works of faith," produced by love? Is there a distinction?

I'm think particularly of what James 2 says and also what Paul says in Romans 8 and Gal. 5.

What kind of works did Christ do-- works of faith or works of law?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

I keep the commandments because I love the Savior....

No, you partially keep the law....Yes, out of love, but nevertheless falling short.

I wish you guys could have your eyes opened then you wouldn't claim such....Keeping the law is living Christ's life, which Paul and John states no one is fully doing....Wake up!!!

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."Romans 8:9 NIV

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."Galatians 2:20 KJV

Blessings!

[Richard Holbrook]

Okay, James 2 says you gotta have both. The works come from faith, otherwise it would be legalism.

[John317]

I see "works of the law" as distinct from works of faith. Works of law come out of a desire to obey law because of either fear of punishment or in order to gain a reward. Those are done under the Old Covenant or in a mind-set of the Old Covenant.

Under the New Covenant, works of faith proceed from love for Christ and are not motived by fear or desire for reward.

God does use the motivation of fear and desire for reward, especially with those who don't know him, and with new Christians, but His plan is to move us beyond those motivations. I think that is one thing Paul means when he speaks of the need to go on to maturity. Children are motivated by fear of punishment and of rewards, but when we become adults (both literally and spiritually), we're supposed to be motivated differently, by love and because we believe something is right.