Richard Holbrook Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I agree. ...Not to change the subject but, I read both of those studies posted about the 144,000 and I think I like Doug Batchelor's the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Does he continue to practice self-love (iniquity)? "And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"Matthew 22:39 NKJV "...He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.....Nevertheless let each individual among you love his own wife even as himself.."Ephesians 5:29,33 NASB NKJV Would you also have us stop loving our wives, Robert, as Jesus gave us example in how He loves the church, the body of Christ. Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Aren't "works of law" always legalism? Yes.... Work of faith are genuine.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 I see "works of the law" as distinct from works of faith. Works of law come out of a desire to obey law because of either fear of punishment or in order to gain a reward. Those are done under the Old Covenant or in a mind-set of the Old Covenant. You have been officially taken off the subtle legalist list. teehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 I see "works of the law" as distinct from works of faith. Works of law come out of a desire to obey law because of either fear of punishment or in order to gain a reward. Those are done under the Old Covenant or in a mind-set of the Old Covenant. You have been officially taken off the subtle legalist list. teehe What has come over you Robert. I am very disappointed in you. Wake up man. Smell the roses. Use your brain. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Robert, There is one other option as a reason for keeping the Covenant/Law/10 Commandments that you failed to mention because you are so caught up in the word "legalism". I have no fear of punishment and no desire for reward because I am a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and whether I live or die (temporarily or eternally) does not matter to me except that I serve Him, so my keeping the Law cannot be for those reasons. My reason is just this; Jesus Christ is my King and He told me that I must obey Him to show that I love Him - therefore I keep the Commandments/Covenant. Do I do this perfectly, not yet, but I have high hopes that through the power of my mother the Holy Spirit I will be perfected in the Character of Jesus Christ before the great tribulation begins. Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand. Dan.12:10. Now you will call that legalism because you believe that the Law no longer applies to you because you live under the New Covenant. and you know, maybe it doesn't. Jesus Christ NEVER talked about a new covenant, He spoke of the Covenant-the same one He gave Israel at Sinai. But if the law no longer applies to you as a Covenant how then will you be judged either righteous or unrighteous? since Jesus said that He will judge each man according to his deeds. What you are basing your eternal life on is that the Law no longer applies to you and that you are correct in this belief. You are betting your life on your belief that God Himself is lawless, meaning that He will not hold you accountable to His law because YOU believe that grace covers your sin. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil. Eccl.12:14. “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. Rev.22:12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 28, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted July 28, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert You have been officially taken off the subtle legalist list. teehe What has come over you Robert. I am very disappointed in you. Wake up man. Smell the roses. Use your brain. Don't worry. I have a feeling that I will be back on the list some time. I'm not saying we shouldn't obey God commandments, but whether that obedience arises from the Holy Spirit or from the flesh is all important. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 but I have high hopes that through the power of my mother the Holy Spirit I will be perfected in the Character of Jesus Christ before the great tribulation begins. Musicman, Please show me 1 text that says the Holy Spirit is anybody's mother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 29, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted July 29, 2009 ... the power of my mother the Holy Spirit If you personally and individually want to consider the Holy Spirit in this way, that is fine; but the Bible does not teach, nor do Seventh-day Adventist's teach, that the Holy Spirit is anyone's mother. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Oh brother and sister and mother ... Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert You have been officially taken off the subtle legalist list. teehe What has come over you Robert. I am very disappointed in you. Wake up man. Smell the roses. Use your brain. Well, what John said above is correct...but then again John and I haven't been getting into it lately.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Does he continue to practice self-love (iniquity)? "And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"Matthew 22:39 NKJV "...He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.....Nevertheless let each individual among you love his own wife even as himself.."Ephesians 5:29,33 NASB NKJV Would you also have us stop loving our wives, Robert, as Jesus gave us example in how He loves the church, the body of Christ. Regards! Okay...this is the best attempt to prove self-love....I'll respond later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Would you also have us stop loving our wives, Robert, as Jesus gave us example in how He loves the church, the body of Christ. Jesus loved the church, His people, even when they committed spiritual adultery. In fact on the cross Christ was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that "the church" might have heaven in His place. Would you love your wife if she slept with other men? Not just a mistake, but deliberately! Would you still love her if she gave you AIDS in the process? Well, Christ loved His own even though His own placed Him on a Roman cross. He loved her when she (Israel) was a whore. That's "loving your neighbor (even your enemy) as yourself." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Quote: I see "works of the law" as distinct from works of faith. Works of law come out of a desire to obey law because of either fear of punishment or in order to gain a reward. Those are done under the Old Covenant or in a mind-set of the Old Covenant. I keep the Sabbath very religiously. I've established many rules for the Sabbath. I guard the edges of the Sabbath. Why? I fear that if I start down the road of eroding the Sabbath hours .... I will soon compromise and end up losing the Sabbath which I consider critical to my relationship. So, yes it is out of fear that I keep the fourth commandment. Yes, I also keep it out of love that is also a factor. But I think selfish fear is primary. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood What has come over you Robert. I am very disappointed in you. Wake up man. Smell the roses. Use your brain. Well' date=' what John said above is correct...but then again John and I haven't been getting into it lately.... [/quote'] Yeah. BUT .... do you have to give him credit in public. Wouldn't a PM be more appropriate so that the next time you change your mind .... you would be viewed as consistent. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 "...He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.....Nevertheless let each individual among you love his own wife even as himself.."Ephesians 5:29,33 NASB NKJV Let me quote NIV: 25 Husbands, love [agape] your wives, just as Christ loved [agaped] the church and gave himself up for her Remember, Christ was willing to die eternally so that His wife, the church, might take His place. ....28 In this same way [as Christ loved the church, even when she was very bad], husbands ought to love [agape] their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself [context: "own body"]. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30 for we are members of his body. Okay, John isn't talking about the love of self. Again, if Christ had loved Himself He would have said to hell with the whore (Israel) and come down of the cross and saved Himself. So then, what is John discussing? Namely care for one's body. Look at the context: "he feeds and cares for it" So just as the husband makes sure he takes care of his body (he makes sure it is properly nourished) so the husband should also take care of his wife. That's the immediate context.... So there's no self-love in agape. If there was the husband would go off with other women. That's self-love and, I might add, it isn't taking care of his body because of STDs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Yeah. BUT .... do you have to give him credit in public. Wouldn't a PM be more appropriate so that the next time you change your mind .... you would be viewed as consistent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see John coming towards the middle...? Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 There is certainly something wrong here. I need to make a home visist and check your pulse. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 There is certainly something wrong here. I need to make a home visist and check your pulse. Let's talk privately.... John, I hope your ears don't burn.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 29, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: Rich4truth Robert, how come every time Gerry asks you if you've given up all your goodies and taken your own advise, you never answer. Gerry knows why....I've repeated often....I'll do it again for your amusement: But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. [Romans 7:6] And what does being released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not the old way? Does it mean you can keep on stealing or stop stealing? Keep on fornicating or stop fornicating? Meaner or kinder? Hater or lover? More rebellious or more obedient? That's the question you have been dodging whenever you talk about growth in the Christian. Somehow I have the distinct impression that to you obedience = legalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 The war between North and South Carolina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 29, 2009 Moderators Share Posted July 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: Rich4truth Robert, how come every time Gerry asks you if you've given up all your goodies and taken your own advise, you never answer. You just keep telling him what a sinner he is and how he's not keeping the commandments, and on and on. Gerry, like many legalistic SDA, claims something he is not: A keeper of the law! Please produce ONE statement where I ever claimed to keep the law perfectly or ever claimed sinlessness. There is only ONE who has obeyed perfectly and was/is sinless. BUT, since Jesus told two people that we have record of: "Go and sin no more," and since He also said, "If you love me, keep my commandments," and since the Apostle John mentions people "who keep the commandments of God," it becomes very obvious to me that the Bible must be talking about TWO levels of keeping the commandments. 1) Perfect obedience in the ultimate meaning of "perfect" which only ONE Person has ever attained to, 2) Less than "perfect" obedience to which believers can attain. I have repeatedly pointed to 1 Jn 3:4-9 to show what #2 is all about. As the Amplified version makes clear, it is the DELIBERATE, WILLFUL, PREMEDITATED, IN-YOUR-FACE kind of sinning, or as the OT describes it, sinning "with a high hand", which ALL believers are commanded to refrain from, and to which by abiding in Christ and through the power of the HS are able to attain. If this is not attainable, then Christ is no Savior, and the HS is no power at all. And if God is going to save believers who continue to practice sin deliberately and willfully anyway, then God has no right to exclude Satan and his followers out of heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Gerry knows why....I've repeated often....I'll do it again for your amusement: But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. [Romans 7:6'] And what does being released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not the old way? Does it mean you can keep on stealing or stop stealing? Keep on fornicating or stop fornicating? Meaner or kinder? Hater or lover? More rebellious or more obedient? That's the question you have been dodging whenever you talk about growth in the Christian. Somehow I have the distinct impression that to you obedience = legalism. Under law you must be perfect, just as God is perfect. Under grace you are perfect "in Christ". The growth you experience is demonstrative, not meritorious. But, as long as life shall last, there'll be sins in your life. You'll be falling short...so please don't judge because when you do you place yourself back under law. In other words, make one rule a condition of salvation and you must keep all the law.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 it becomes very obvious to me that the Bible must be talking about TWO levels of keeping the commandments. 1) Perfect obedience in the ultimate meaning of "perfect" which only ONE Person has ever attained to, 2) Less than "perfect" obedience to which believers can attain. The watered down version? Hmmm? Interesting.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt.5:48. Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Matt.19:21. So Robert, are you are saying that Jesus did not mean what He said? Where else did Jesus say anything He did not mean? You seem to be trying so hard not to be called 'legalistic' that you are willing to question that Jesus meant exactly what He said. Interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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