Nicodema Posted January 27, 2005 Share Posted January 27, 2005 Dead and Stinking: the Gospel According to Lazarus. The Bible in John 11 gives an outstanding example showing that God alone does all the work of saving us. Christ brought to life a man named Lazarus who had been dead for four days. Jesus stood outside of the tomb of Lazarus and commanded "Lazarus come forth". Obviously, the stinking corpse within the tomb could not hear Him or obey Him. The Bible tells us that before we are saved we are spiritually dead. Yet God commands us to seek God, to believe, to repent. However, just as it was impossible for the dead Lazarus to obey Jesus' command to come out of the tomb, it is impossible for a spiritually dead person to obey God's command to believe on Jesus for salvation. John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Yet Lazarus did hear Jesus' command and did come out of the tomb, a live person. How did that happen? It meant that when Jesus commanded the dead Lazarus to come forth Jesus in His Spirit had to enter that tomb and gave that stinking corpse physical life, ears to hear, and a will and strength to obey the command of Christ. Likewise for those whom God plans to save as He commands us to believe, to repent, to become saved, He is speaking to spiritual corpses who of themselves could never become saved. Yet there are those who begin to believe on Jesus as Savior, who find that they are happiest when they do God's will. The evidence is in their life that somehow they had become saved. This can only happen because as God commanded them to believe, God also entered into their life and saved them. Because He saved them they found they had come to believe on Jesus. They found that sin had become very unpleasant to them. It was evident God had chosen them to become saved and as they heard the Gospel God did apply the Word of God to their lives and they did become saved. If you are not saved, listen diligently to the Bible. Carefully and prayerfully read and read the Bible. It may be that you, too, will receive salvation as God through His Word, the Bible, calls you. NO MATTER HOW AWFULLY YOU HAVE LIVED OR HOW TERRIBLY YOU HAVE SINNED, IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT BY GOD'S MERCY YOU, TOO, HAVE BEEN CHOSEN BY GOD TO BECOME SAVED. Remember, however, that God does everything in His time. Therefore, you should patiently wait upon the Lord while you continue to learn from the Bible. Lamentations 3:26 - It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD. Psalm 62:7,8 - In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge is in God. Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. (excerpt from Does God Love You?) Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Quote: God alone does all the work of saving us Then why aren't all saved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Quote: Psalm 62:7,8 - In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge is in God. Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. How I would like to spend more time tonight this morning to lend my support to your post, Nico, but God is clearly telling me even discussing His precious promises demands that the flesh receive rest. Amen to your post. Surely the Spirit has spoken through you. Hope to get back to this thread later today. [:"red"] "Keep watching and praying that you may not come into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." [/] Matt 26:41 Mark 14:38 NASB Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted January 29, 2005 Moderators Share Posted January 29, 2005 Jim: Re: "Then why aren't all saved?" There are those who beleive, based upon Paul's statements in Romans, that Christ, on the cross, provided salvation to everyone, no exceptions. But, they may believe that people can lose their salvation either by rejecting Christ, or by refusing to accept salvation. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 29, 2005 Author Share Posted January 29, 2005 JimBobz: I believe the Bible gives ample evidence that God has provided salvation to all in Christ. I believe the statement that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance -- and that repentance is the gift from God that signals salvation in that person's heart. I believe Jesus when He said if He be lifted up He would draw ALL. I do not know whether that means in the end, everyone will be saved; I am not God with perfect sight and knowledge. I simply believe His word and His sovereignty. If it turns out this is not the case, and some are not saved, God is still just and true in all His ways and His sovereignty will be vindicated beyond all shadow of doubt. We cannot know everything perfectly but only "through a glass darkly"; beyond that, we must trust Him who sees and knows all. LHC: I look forward to your input here! Please do come back after you've rested awhile and both Spirit is willing AND flesh is NOT weak. BTW I did not write the above but copied it from something I was reading -- I felt too the voice of the Holy Spirit in it and felt moved to share it; that's why I cited it at the bottom from its source document. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 John 1:6 There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light [Jesus] 9 There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. [That's why He "enlightens every man"] 11 He came to His own [the Jews], and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him [through faith is inferred], to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." I believe Nico is at it again ....God isn't going to believe for us, Nico....He illuminates the mind with the gospel truth - the good news - the goodness of God. Our faith response is either "yes" or it is "no thanks"! As I have stated before, we make free-will decisions all the time. The decision to believe is ours.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 29, 2005 Author Share Posted January 29, 2005 Robert: what part of this escaped you? Quote: If ... this is not the case, and some are not saved, God is still just and true in all His ways (emphasis added in) I'm not "at" anything. I have the right to share my thinking here as does anyone else. You are out of line making assumptions about what thinking is "underlying" my thinking. If you wish to know, the proper thing to do is ASK, not pretend you read my mind and are qualified to speak for me. You, too, have the right to share your thoughts on a subject. But you need to learn how to do so without making assumptions about others or personal digs at them. I wish you would, because you have a lot to contribute worth reading, I think. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 I also believe that God does all the work in saving us. Rev 22:17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. (NIV) Prov 9:4-5: Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him, Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled. (KJV) Isa 1:18: "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. (NIV) Isa 55:1-3: "Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and your soul will delight in the richest of fare. Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David. (NIV) Jer 3:22: "Return, faithless people; I will cure you of backsliding." "Yes, we will come to you, for you are the LORD our God. (NIV) Jer 50:4-5: "In those days, at that time," declares the LORD, "the people of Israel and the people of Judah together will go in tears to seek the LORD their God. They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting covenant that will not be forgotten. (NIV) Hosea 6:1-2: "Come, let us return to the LORD. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence. (NIV) Matt 11:28-30: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (NIV) Rev 3:18-20: I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. (NIV) But there is one thing He cannot do for us. Since He has given all of us a free will, He will not violate our freedom of choice. All the above texts have one thing in common. They all picture God as pleading with us to "come" to Him. If we say "yes", He then will indeed do all the work. I only disagree with you Nico on the idea that all or most people will be saved. Heaven is big enough for the entire human race. God's forgiveness is sufficient for every sin ever commmitted. In the days of Noah, Noah preached for 120 years. How many were saved? 8. How many righteous people did the Lord find in Sodom. 1. In the days of Jesus and His disciples, only a few thousand accepted the gospel message. In the very end of time, only 144,000 can be found to preach the last message. Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Quote: If ... this is not the case, and some are not saved, God is still just and true in all His ways That's nice, but it is still an attempt to diminish the importance of accepting Jesus by faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 29, 2005 Share Posted January 29, 2005 Quote: I also believe that God does all the work in saving us. Not does, but "did"....! The work He does in us is to reveal the Father's love and is an ongoing work.....That part I agree with, but faith is our response. God can't believe for us, but He can increase our faith through the teaching of the gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Isn't it true that before we will come to Jesus, we must first know that we can trust Him (have faith in Him)? It is God's work to give us sufficient evidence so that we are convinced He is trustworthy. Faith is as much the gift of God as is repentence. After we accept the fact that He is trustworthy, then we hear His voice to "come." At that point the choice is up to us. Most people never give God a chance to show them how trustworthy and loving He is. Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 Quote: That's nice, but it is still an attempt to diminish the importance of accepting Jesus by faith. No it is not. You wrong me by your false accusations, Brother Robert. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 Quote: I only disagree with you Nico on the idea that all or most people will be saved. Kindly go back and read what I actually wrote here, Brother Dave. Despite Brother Robert's claim, I have not stated that in this thread. Here is what I did state (with emphases added and comments in [:"red"]red[/]): Quote: I believe the Bible gives ample evidence that God has provided [:"red"] (made available)[/] salvation to all in Christ. I believe the statement that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance [:"red"](quoted from scripture)[/] -- and that repentance is the gift from God that signals salvation in that person's heart. I believe Jesus when He said if He be lifted up He would draw ALL. [:"red"](Jesus, not I, said this.)[/] I do not know whether that means in the end, everyone will be saved... I do not mind being opposed and debated on a point of faith, but it troubles me greatly to be held accountable for another's strawman. However, if you wish to debate me on the matter of whether the direct agency of the Divine Holy Spirit is required for any human being to make that all-important decision to say Yes to Jesus, by all means, both you and Robert may feel free to do so. I believe it is an absolute necessity and requirement indeed, and I believe the Bible will bear me up on this. In Him, Nico Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Go to John 16:7 Unless I [Jesus] go away, the Counselor [the Holy Spirit] will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world [a word used for the human race] of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me.... This quote is very, very clear! The Holy Spirit convicts the world - the human race - of the sin of unbelief. You see "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners" [1 Timothy 1:15]. That is why Christ stated, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Did He really mean righteous or self-righteous? Let's see: Matt 23:27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. Christ, through the Holy Spirit, has revealed Himself to "all men"! He does this by convincing men of his sinfulness and in return He offers His righteousness. That offer can and will be refused by many. Why? Pride! Before Saul became Paul, he thought very highly of his righteousness. We find this is Phil 3:6 -- "As to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." Yet after his conversion - his acceptance of Christ - we see him with a different mindset, one that counts his righteousness (his attainments) as dung! Thus the converted Paul concluded that He wanted to be "found in him [Christ], not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith...." [see Phil 3:8,9] So while God does the convincing, through the Holy Spirit, it is our free-will choice to say "Yes, I am a sinner and I need Christ and His righteousness." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Quote: Quote: That's nice, but it is still an attempt to diminish the importance of accepting Jesus by faith. No it is not. You wrong me by your false accusations, Brother Robert. Then why the "if" in "If... this is not the case, and some are not saved"? To me that cast doubt on the entire Bible. Again, "in Christ" the whole world (the human race) has been saved. Christ has done it all while we yet sinners. Faith makes this reality effective in the believer’s life. Without it no one will see heaven. Here I see no "IF"! Some, says the Bible, will opt for Lucifer's system of love. They will reject Christ's system of love. It is all about choice! You see there are two systems - two Gods - each claiming his system is superior. One is based on the promotion of self - i.e., the love of self. The other is based on selflessness - i.e., the greatest among you is the servant of all. The 1st system - the one developed by "the god of this world" claims that self-love is the best system for the universe. To love self is the greatest love of all....Only when this love is achieved can one love others. The 2nd systems says "no" - the love of self is the root cause of all evil. In complete opposition Christ offers a love that is willing to lay down one's life forever so that one's enemies might enjoy paradise. It is this love that guarantees peace and righteousness. The choice is ours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Quote: I believe Jesus when He said if He be lifted up He would draw ALL . (Jesus, not I, said this.) I do not know whether that means in the end, everyone will be saved... Once again, if you read the Bible in its context (instead of taking little snippets out of their context and thereby creating doubt) you would see that some will be lost. They will choose Lucifer's system of love. I have already covered that the Holy Spirit convinces [illuminates] "all men" of their need to accept Christ and His righteousness. That is drawing all.... However, just because "all men" are illuminated - just because all men are convicted - does not infer that all men will go to heaven. Some, I hate to say, will be lost (die the 2nd death). Why? Unbelief. This is very clear in the following: Romans 11:20 So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches [the Jews who rejected Christ - those who were lost], neither will he spare you [the Gentile]. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen [from grace is inferrred], but God’s kindness to you provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others [the Gentiles], if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 Quote: Then why the "if" in " If ... this is not the case, and some are not saved"? To me that cast doubt on the entire Bible. Would you prefer me to be intellectually and fundamentally dishonest and claim a level of knowledge I do not possess? I do not see as God sees and I cannot possibly pretend to know the full measure of all His mysteries of Love. I know as much as my small mind is capable of knowing at this particular point of its development. Not to cast doubt on the BIBLE but to admit my OWN limitation, is the word "if" used. It is used to question MY thoughts about the Bible statements, not the statements themselves. Quote: It is all about choice! You see there are two systems - two Gods - each claiming his system is superior. One is based on the promotion of self - i.e., the love of self. The other is based on selflessness - i.e., the greatest among you is the servant of all. Are you able to make that choice without the direct agency of the Holy Spirit acting upon you giving you the grace to do so? Just answer "yes" or "no" ... Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 Quote: However, just because "all men" are illuminated - just because all men are convicted - does not infer that all men will go to heaven. Some, I hate to say, will be lost (die the 2nd death). Why? Unbelief. This is very clear in the following: Romans 11:20 So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches [the Jews who rejected Christ - those who were lost], neither will he spare you [the Gentile]. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen [from grace is inferrred], but God’s kindness to you provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others [the Gentiles], if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in , for God has the power to graft them in again. Do you get to decide whether God will graft you in or not? Shall the clay say to the potter, Why hast thou made me thus? The point for which I originally began this thread was this: that until the voice of God -- the direct agency of the Holy Spirit -- is activated upon us to call us forth from our extant condition of death and decay, doom without reprieve, we can no more come forth into repentance than can Lazarus come forth from his tomb. Do you think a dead man has a choice? Did Lazarus have a choice to come out of that tomb? To wake at all? Instead of instantly throwing up arguments at me, stop and think about it first. That's all I want you to do: think. Ponder. Contemplate the idea. You can still reject it in the end if you see no merit in it. But at least think it over first, NOT as you would make it into to more easily squelch, but as I am trying to actually present it. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Quote: LHC: I look forward to your input here! Please do come back after you've rested awhile and both Spirit is willing AND flesh is NOT weak. BTW I did not write the above but copied it from something I was reading -- I felt too the voice of the Holy Spirit in it and felt moved to share it; that's why I cited it at the bottom from its source document. Nico; It seems some are far more interested in being right about their preconceived ideas than they are in arriving at the truth. I just finished reading your posts, along with the responses, and am satisfied your spirit is the spirit needed for growth in grace when sharing and searching for truth. Some of the attempts to make your conclusions say something they were not saying, in my estimation, are only making dark what you have made plain, as you used the help of someone elses ideas. Much as Jesus could have spoken multiplied words of truth, for the sake of His malefactors, if given a thousand more years they still would not have believed Him, although I don't feel anyone here has intended to be a malefactor. [:"red"] "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. " [/] John 16:12 Do you mind if I type out a subject which is , but which there is no doubt in my mind you'll find refreshment of your soul in the face of adversity? I suppose I could open another thread but I'm hoping this might help calm the waters much like Isaiah did when he threw something in the water to make it sweet. The story is told of a 21 year old woman in a land recently torn by war who was in desperate need. It was Christmas Eve, and she was almost ready to deliver her baby, fathered by a foreign soldier. No one wanted her or the baby. She started to the home of a missionary, but the baby was almost ready to come. She stopped at a home along the way to plead for help. "Where is your soldier now? Let him help you," the couple answered. She stopped at another home and again was refused assistance. She finally reached a bridge close to the mission where surely she would find help. But there was not enough time___the baby was coming now. She crawled underneath the bridge and delivered her boy. It was a bitter winter night. She took off her jacket and wrapped him in it. The baby was still so cold. She took off her blouse, and then her skirt, to cover him. She gave him everything she was wearing and cradled him close to her, giving the last measure of her body warmth until she herself lay frozen under the bridge. The next morning the missionary started over the bridge to distribute Christmas gifts. He heard___could it be?___ a baby's cry. He climbed down underneath the bridge and found the boy for whom the mother had sacrificed everything. The missioary adopted the child. When the boy had his tenth Christmas birthday, the missionary thought it was time to tell him the story. So the man told the boy how his mother had given everything she had so that he might live. The next morning the child was gone. The frantic father began looking for him. He found his clothes on the bank by the river. Climbing down, he found the boy, kneeling naked, and praying: "God, help me to understand how cold Mama was the night she died for me." We can never understand how cold Jesus was the day He died for us; how he felt misunderstood, betrayed, beaten, spit upon, ridiculed, rejected, separated from His loving Father, executed___for us. [:"red"] "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. "[/] John 15:13 NASB Hope you had a happy Sabbath, Nico. Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Quote: Are you able to make that choice without the direct agency of the Holy Spirit acting upon you giving you the grace to do so? Just answer "yes" or "no" ... Yes, after He has illuminated my mind of the fact that I am 1] a sinner, and 2] in need of Christ's righteousness Again, the Holy Spirit cannot believe for us....Neither can He force us to believe. The choice is ours! You can bring a thirsty horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 30, 2005 Author Share Posted January 30, 2005 I believe the Bible clearly teaches that without the direct agency of the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin, righteousness, AND JUDGMENT, and to give us the gift of repentance and faith, we are not capable in and of ourselves of making that decision. That capability as an intrinsic part of our being was forfeited by Adam at the tree. It is only restored in Christ, and only by the direct grace of God toward us is that restoration made manifest in us. Again, without the voice of God to call us forth into life, we are dead and stinking in our tombs as was Lazarus. What you term "force" us to believe, I would term "enable" us to believe. Therein, I think, lies the difference. You are not seeing what I am actually saying, but something else that is presented to you as forcing. Lazarus had the choice later to kill himself or to stay alive, the same choices we all have, but he had no choice how or when to come forth into life. That choice was made for him by the voice of God alone. Why is it written Jesus said to Peter, "WHEN thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren"? Peter had been with Christ three years prior, in His presence daily, hearing His word spoken; was he not yet converted? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Quote: However, if you wish to debate me on the matter of whether the direct agency of the Divine Holy Spirit is required for any human being to make that all-important decision to say Yes to Jesus, by all means, both you and Robert may feel free to do so. I believe it is an absolute necessity and requirement indeed, and I believe the Bible will bear me up on this. Since I also believe this, I see no use in debating you. Without the Holy Spirit no one could take even the first step toward Christ. He is needed for both justification and sanctification. Since you admitted that you "do not know" how many will be saved, I must agree with you. I do not know either. I was expressing my opinion that few will be saved. Your Friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 30, 2005 Share Posted January 30, 2005 Quote: Do you get to decide whether God will graft you in or not? Absolutely yes - I get to decide! It all goes backs to Lucifer.... Apparently, because of free will, Lucifer decided to invent what we call sin (the love of self) – a love that is in complete opposition to God's selflessness. For this to happen God apparently made His creation with a right to choose - a right to use their own minds even if it meant making terrible decisions. I surmise that you would want a God who makes robots - a dictator God!?! Quote: Shall the clay say to the potter, Why hast thou made me thus? I love this one....So many Christians use this (out of its context) to promote, 1] A God who forces, and 2] A God who practices partiality. This type of thinking does nothing but assassinates God's character, for it places sinful, human attributes onto our loving God. I’ll briefly examine this one….To do this I’ll have to go to Romans 9:6…. Paul tells us, “ It is not as though God’s word had failed.” What, did God promise something that He didn’t keep? Did Paul say, “All Israel will be saved”? Didn’t God promise Abraham that his descendents, Israel, would inherit the heavenly Canaan? Yes, but…”God granted it [heaven] to Abraham by means of a promise” [see Gal 3:18] Let’s go on….”For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children . On the contrary, “It is through Isaac [who came by promise] that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words,it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.” ….Verse 16 So then it [the promise] does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.” Verse 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he [God] still find fault? For who can resist his will?” What was God’s will concerning Abraham and his descendents? Go to Romans 4:13 “The promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law [men’s will at attempting to gain heaven through works] but through the righteousness of faith.[:"red"] 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified![/] You see Abraham’s descendents insisted that they too should be saved because they were Abraham children, but unlike Abraham they claimed heaven by works of the law instead of faith. Now what is God’s will concerning savlation - in other words what is His way of saving Abraham’s Children? Belief, not unbelief….Legalism is unbelief in God to keep His promise. No descendent of Abraham can override God’s will concerning His way of saving mankind….It is by faith from first to last. Now to your context: 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Verse 23: As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people….27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea [as promised to Abraham],[:"red"] only a remnant of them will be saved[/]….32 Why? Because they [israel] did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works." So your quote taken within the context of Paul’s theme simply means that God will only save those who have the faith of Abraham. Works will not buy the heavenly Canaan….That’s Paul’s whole point! Therefore, some will be lost.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Saved means dealing with the Jer 17:9 heart and Rom 8:7 mind of humans so that they are like Jesus in Heb 1:9 The gospel is the evil ENMITY eliminator and righteous ENMITY maker. The cross is not to take care of some heavenly ARAP issue. It is for dealing with messed up humans. Education The central theme of the Bible, the theme about which every other in the whole book clusters, is the redemption plan, the restoration in the human soul of the image of God. From the first intimation of hope in the sentence pronounced in Eden to that last glorious promise of the Revelation, "They shall see His face; and His name shall be in their foreheads" (Revelation 22:4), the burden of every book and every passage of the Bible is the unfolding of this wondrous theme,--man's uplifting,--the power of 126 God, "which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 15:57. {Ed 125.2} He who grasps this thought has before him an infinite field for study. He has the key that will unlock to him the whole treasure house of God's word. {Ed 126.1} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Quote: Since you admitted that you "do not know" how many will be saved, I must agree with you. I do not know either. I was expressing my opinion that few will be saved. Your Friend, Dave M Dave, if that is your decided opinion it comes in good company. I suppose then the question could be, 'How many is a few'? [:"red"] "Because [ NU-Text and M-Text read How ... !] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. " [/] Matthew 7:14 NKJV And it also seems to be geographical when considering what a few is that are of the saved. [:"red"] "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands..." [/] Revelation 7:9 KJV Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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