"Released from the Law"

[Twilight]

There you go again. Agreeing with yourself.

Do you want to do that IP challenge Redwood?

Myself and Sky would be happy to prove that we are not the same person.

Are you and Robert willing to do the same?

There are many ways to test this and it would re-assure me to know that you and Robert are not in fact the same person.

The amount of times you have "amened" yourself, seems very suspicious to me.

Yet, here you are insinuating and accusing others of "dishonesty".

If you are going to make such charges, as you have here, then please be willing to reveal your true ip address.

And ask your friend Robert to do the same.

Mark

[Woody]

My word is my bond. The difference here is that I have amened myself which at times I have to do when no one else does. But I have not responded in place of Robert when people were talking to Robert. I think there is a difference.

[Twilight]

My word is my bond. The difference here is that I have amened myself which at times I have to do when no one else does. But I have not responded in place of Robert when people were talking to Robert. I think there is a difference.

Until you "prove" your identity, then it could be anyone posting.

You have laid the charge that myself and Sky are the same person.

I am willing to disprove that.

You are not willing to subject yourself to the same test however.

But you are willing to "accuse" the brethren.

Hmmmm....

[Woody]

Thanks I think that sums it up well.

Now ... maybe we can get :

[Just*]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Are you not saying God does not tell the truth??? Of Job, GOD SAID:

" And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” Job 1:8 ESV.

Keep in mind a statement from EGW: "We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls [when we meet God face to face, as it were], we shall see how impure we are; [why?] we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

You see you can do the right thing outwardly, but if the motive is self-centered it "defiles" the act. Let's use an example found in the Bible:

1 Cor 13:3 3 If I give everything I own to the poor...but I don't love [agape], I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love [agape]."

In the above example Paul is stating that if he gives all his goods to the poor, but he does it for self-centered reasons, the act (although outwardly it is good) is bankrupt of true righteousness because only "agape" fulfills the law.

So if I give away all my possessions to the poor, outwardly I look like a righteous Joe, but if I'm doing it in order to get the applause of folks...or to get my name in the paper, etc, etc, my selfishness has (in heaven's eyes) defiled the act. It is filthy rags. So you can keep the law outwardly, but unless your motives are selfless you have broken the spirit of the law.

Ellen White agrees: "....As far as outward acts were concerned --he [saul] was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner."

Now, with this in mind, let's look at the dialog between God and Satan in Job chapter one:

Job 1:3 [Job] had seven sons and three daughters. 3 He was also very wealthy - seven thousand head of sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred teams of oxen, five hundred donkeys, and a huge staff of servants - the most influential man in all the East....8 God said to Satan, "Have you noticed my friend Job?....9 Satan retorted, "So do you think Job does all that out of the sheer goodness of his heart? [In other words do you think Job is doing it for selfless reasons?] 10 Why, no one ever had it so good! You pamper him like a pet, make sure nothing bad ever happens to him or his family or his possessions, bless everything he does - he can't lose! 11 "But what do you think would happen if you reached down and took away everything that is his? He'd curse you right to your face, that's what." 12 God replied, "We'll see. Go ahead - do what you want with all that is his. Just don't hurt him." Then Satan left the presence of God.

Now it is true that Job didn't turn his back on God....He didn't curse Him, like his wife. But did Job have a problem? And the answer to that is yes!

Job thought a lot of his righteousness. And yes, outwardly he was a righteous man, but at the motive level all Job did was for self-centered reasons. He did the right thing outwardly because he had great wealth.

Well, he ended up losing it all....But in the end, after God revealed to Job his problem, it was all restored. Then Job served God, not to keep his goodies, but because he had learned a lesson. And that lesson is there's none righteous except one, that is, God.

In the end Job repented of his self-righteous attitude and so God blessed him and returned to him his wealth.

Rob

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Job 1:8

When the ear heard [me], then it blessed me; and when the eye saw [me], it gave witness to me: Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and [him that had] none to help him. The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy. I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment [was] as a robe and a diadem. I was eyes to the blind, and feet [was] I to the lame. I [was] a father to the poor: and the cause [which] I knew not I searched out. And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth. Job 29:11-17

If I have seen any perish for want of clothing, or any poor without covering; If his loins have not blessed me, and [if] he were [not] warmed with the fleece of my sheep; If I have lifted up my hand against the fatherless, when I saw my help in the gate: [Then] let mine arm fall from my shoulder blade, and mine arm be broken from the bone. For destruction [from] God [was] a terror to me, and by reason of his highness I could not endure. If I have made gold my hope, or have said to the fine gold, [Thou art] my confidence; If I rejoiced because my wealth [was] great, and because mine hand had gotten much; If I beheld the sun when it shined, or the moon walking [in] brightness; And my heart hath been secretly enticed, or my mouth hath kissed my hand: This also [were] an iniquity [to be punished by] the judge: for I should have denied the God [that is] above. If I rejoiced at the destruction of him that hated me, or lifted up myself when evil found him: Neither have I suffered my mouth to sin by wishing a curse to his soul. If the men of my tabernacle said not, Oh that we had of his flesh! we cannot be satisfied. The stranger did not lodge in the street: [but] I opened my doors to the traveller. If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom: Did I fear a great multitude, or did the contempt of families terrify me, that I kept silence, [and] went not out of the door? Job 31:19-34

Surely I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to reason with God. Job 13:3

Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. He also [shall be] my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him. Hear diligently my speech, and my declaration with your ears. Behold now, I have ordered [my] cause; I know that I shall be justified. Job 13:15-18

How many [are] mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin. Job 13:23

Oh that I knew where I might find him! [that] I might come [even] to his seat! I would order [my] cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments. Job 23:3-4

But he knoweth the way that I take: [when] he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold. My foot hath held his steps, his way have I kept, and not declined. Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary [food]. But he [is] in one [mind], and who can turn him? and [what] his soul desireth, even [that] he doeth. Job 23:10-13

For what portion of God [is there] from above? and [what] inheritance of the Almighty from on high? [is] not destruction to the wicked? and a strange [punishment] to the workers of iniquity? Job 31:2-3

Let me be weighed in an even balance, that God may know mine integrity. Job 31:6God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me. My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach [me] so long as I live. Let mine enemy be as the wicked, and he that riseth up against me as the unrighteous. Job 27:5-7

Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire [is, that] the Almighty would answer me, and [that] mine adversary had written a book. Surely I would take it upon my shoulder, [and] bind it [as] a crown to me. Job 31:35-36

So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he [was] righteous in his own eyes. Job 32:1

------------------------------------------

Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God. Job 32:2

Let me not, I pray you, accept any man's person, neither let me give flattering titles unto man. For I know not to give flattering titles; [in so doing] my maker would soon take me away. Job 32:21-22

And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I [am] young, and ye [are] very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion. Job 32:6

But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Great men are not [always] wise: neither do the aged understand judgment. Therefore I said, Hearken to me; I also will shew mine opinion. Job 32:8-10

Thinkest thou this to be right, [that] thou saidst, My righteousness [is] more than God's? Job 35:2

My desire [is that] Job may be tried unto the end because of [his] answers for wicked men. Job 34:36

But thou hast fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold [on thee]. Job 36:17

Take heed, regard not iniquity: for this hast thou chosen rather than affliction. Job 36:21

-------------------

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes. Job 42:5.6

[John317]

.8 God said to Satan, "Have you noticed my friend Job?....9 Satan retorted, "So do you think Job does all that out of the sheer goodness of his heart? [In other words do you think Job is doing it for selfless reasons?] 10 Why, no one ever had it so good! You pamper him like a pet, make sure nothing bad ever happens to him or his family or his possessions, bless everything he does - he can't lose! 11 "But what do you think would happen if you reached down and took away everything that is his? He'd curse you right to your face, that's what." 12 God replied, "We'll see. Go ahead - do what you want with all that is his. Just don't hurt him." Then Satan left the presence of God.

Now it is true that Job didn't turn his back on God....He didn't curse Him, like his wife. But did Job have a problem? And the answer to that is yes!

The answer is that Satan was proved wrong and God was proved right about Job. It was proved that God could trust Job, and Satan was wrong to think that Job did right because of the rewards.

[John317]

I am willing to disprove that.

You are not willing to subject yourself to the same test however.

As moderator:

No need to prove anyone's ID here.

You and sky are not the same person and neither are Redwood and Robert.

Now:

[phkrause]

Good post John. :)

pk

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Was God stating His own position on Job to Satan or was God stating Job's position of himself to Satan? In other words maybe God was presenting Job's view of himself before Satan....

In your own words' date=' "pure speculation" which has no Biblical foundation!

[/quote']

Why is it speculation? You interpret it as God's view of Job....On the other hand I, by reading the whole context of Job, interpret it as Job's view of himself presented by God to Satan. Remember, Job could not represent himself in heaven; so God was presenting Job's view of himseld to Satan.

[Gerr]

"Pure speculation!"

I've read the "whole context" of Job as well.

Twice God said he was righteous and NOT SELF-righteous. Ezekiel said he was righteous and NOT SELF-righteous. James said he was righteous and NOT SELF-righteous. The Narrator says he was righteous and NOT SELF-righteous. Soooooo, who shall I believe? Believe a speculator? Or God and the men He inspired?

[Guest]

Remember, Job could not represent himself in heaven; so God was presenting Job's view of himseld to Satan.

Now that is speculation. Do you have any scipture to back that up?

[John317]

I, by reading the whole context of Job, interpret it as Job's view of himself presented by God to Satan. Remember, Job could not represent himself in heaven; so God was presenting Job's view of himseld to Satan.

The problem with your view is the fact that the narrator himself tells us in the very first sentence of the book that Job was a "blameless and upright" man, "one who feared (respected) God and shunned evil." This narrator is omniscient and reliable. He's not throwing the reader any curves. He's straightforward and completely honest.

It would be different if he said, "Job thought he was perfect." But that is not what is going on this book.

The whole point of the book is that Job was innocent yet was suffering terribly. If he wasn't innocent but was actually self-righteous, it would change the meaning of the book. Job would then be suffering because of his sin of self-righteousness. But of course that is not what happens. Job does not know it but he has the great privilege of proving Satan wrong and God right. Satan accuses Job of serving God for rewards but God has faith in Job, and the entire book is a demonstration that God's faith in Job is justified.

[phkrause]

And to add to that John, what I see at the very end is that, after the fact, God restores to Job all that was taken from him. Not because he did what he did for any gain but because he loved God with all his heart even though all along he thought that God was punishing him for being a bad person. To me its like when Jesus comes to get us, not because we did anything to deserve being with him but because we love him and he covered us with his perfect live.

pk

[Robert]

it doesn't matter what the fourth man said,

In Ezekiel 14:14 he is mentioned among the righteous few.

[Robert]

Too long and way, way to much speculation....It's fiction...it's legalistic....

[Robert]

The answer is that Satan was proved wrong and God was proved right about Job.

So God abandoned Job just to prove Satan wrong? You're making God egotistical - after all Job's children were killed; Job suffered himself and all this just to prove that God was right? That doesn't sound like the God I know of...the God that would rather die eternally then condemn His own murders....

No, God abandoned Job because there was something very serious going on in Job's life.

[Robert]

Twice God said he was righteous and NOT SELF-righteous.

Okay, let's test this assumption....Go to Mark 2:16-17:

When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him [Jesus] eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Now look at the immediate context....Who is Jesus referring to as "the righteous"? The context reveals it was "the teachers of the law (the Pharisees)". clearly the Pharisees were "self-righteous", but Jesus calls them "righteous".

Does that mean Christ viewed them as righteous? Certainly not...just read Matthew chapter 23! You see Jesus didn't come to call the righteous because, in His own words, "there is none good [righteous], but one, that is God" [Matt 19:17]. So in calling the "Pharisees" righteous Christ was presenting their view of themselves. That's self-righteousness.

Likewise God wasn't telling us that Job was blameless...no, He was merely echoing Job's view of himself, which is self-righteousness!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Remember, Job could not represent himself in heaven; so God was presenting Job's view of himseld to Satan.

Now that is speculation. Do you have any scipture to back that up?

The book of Job

[Guest]

The book of Job dosn't say that.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I, by reading the whole context of Job, interpret it as Job's view of himself presented by God to Satan. Remember, Job could not represent himself in heaven; so God was presenting Job's view of himseld to Satan.

The problem with your view is the fact that the narrator himself tells us in the very first sentence of the book that Job was a "blameless and upright" man, "one who feared (respected) God and shunned evil." This narrator is omniscient and reliable. He's not throwing the reader any curves. He's straightforward and completely honest.

Is Jesus then being "unreliable" and "dishonest" when He calls the Pharisees "righteous" when in fact they were not? Or is it you are too blind to see the truth? Maybe it says something of your own experience....Maybe you are too close to the forest to see the trees?

Mark 2:16 When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" 17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

[Guest]

They were righteous in their own eyes, so they had no need of a savior.

[Robert]

They were righteous in their own eyes, so they had no need of a savior.

Richard...but it doesn't say that....Jesus said they were "righteous"...the same Jesus that said Job was "blameless"....

Now you've got a problem....

[Guest]

I don't. He knew they were not righteous. He knew Job was.

[skyblue888]

Amen!

[Robert]

He knew they were not righteous. He knew Job was.

Then why did He say that they were "righteous"?