Maschil Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook That's not what he's saying. He plainly states: Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [/quote'] That means if your feed the flesh...if you take the attitude nothing is wrong with sin...heck, let's enjoy sin...let's get drunk..let's go down to the booby bar...let's sleep with all the women we can...let's just flat out live for the flesh, well, you'll reap trouble....Remember that the flesh is anti-god...so if you feed it as a life style it will get your mind to denounce Christ.... But we don't grow by looking to the law....We grow by "obeying the gospel" But don't you have to look first to know what to obey? It's like a mirror, which james used in James 1, by looking at the law we see the changes that we must allow God to help us with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 absolutely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert That body is your body....It is your humanity.....Christ' date=' as God, took upon His sinless Deity, your fallen life. Hence you died with Christ over 2,000 years ago.... [/quote'] i kind of like the idea but don't like the language, Romans 6 says we are burried with Christ but i think PAUL IS EMphasizing us following Christ example not so much us dieing with Him 2000 years ago. Baptism is a symbol....It points to your death "in Christ" that actually happened....But, you'll say, I wasn't alive... Well, sure you were, not as an individual, but your substance was in the humanity Christ assumed from Mary. Now where did Mary get her humanity? You can trace it all the way back to Adam....When Adam fell the only life he could pass to his offspring was a life in bondage to sin....You and I share his life....That life Christ took upon Himself....Hence you were "in Christ" when He died....So when ONE died, ALL died....You were included in that humanity for all of us share one life --- the fallen life of Adam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maschil Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 wait.....that takes away freedom of choice and almost sounds alittle like forensic justification.. Paul says He dies daily...its a death of self,we are to die similiarly as Christ died, but Christ died to provide blood for us, but we must make that decision to crucify ourselves and accept His blood as an atonement for our sins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert But don't you have to look first to know what to obey? It's like a mirror, which james used in James 1, by looking at the law we see the changes that we must allow God to help us with. The law was never given to make things better....The law was given to turn sin into transgression....Before you were sinning and then the law came along and proved it.... As to James...."the royal law" is really Christ....Look at Christ's life...that's the fulfillment of the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Romans 8:1-5 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:12,13 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Paul is clear, if you live according to the Spirit you are "putting to death" the deeds of the flesh. Paul says I die daily and this is his explaination for this text. 1Co 15:31 I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maschil Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 But Robert the law has always been there... it has two functions, reveals righteousness and reveals unrighteousness, so depending on what side you are on in the judgment it can make things better for you.. The law determines who is righteous..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 wait.....that takes away freedom of choice .... Did you have a choice to be born as a child of Adam? Do you know that because you share his life that you are born under sin and condemned? Just as you were born "in Adam" and hence condemned, Christ reversed your situation "in Adam" by His doing and dying....Now if you wish to reject this truth then you can chose to be lost....It's your choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 The law determines who is righteous..... Right, none! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maschil Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 ah.. you are half right... the big difference as it is seen in Rom 3-5 especially. Is that you have to CHOOSE to accept Christ, God can't force you to accept Him so thats the main different between the death of Christ and the choice of Adam. Now. proof that everyone will have had an opporunity to accept Christ is this.. All will be ressurrected, there will be two, but all will be ressurected. Some to shame but some to righteousness. Thats the prood that we have all had an opportunity to accept Christ... but its not the reversed situation totally because if that were the case.. all would be justified, CHoice is the big key here, Originally Posted By: Akintunde The law determines who is righteous..... Right, none! What about Jesus? What about those who accept His blood? The law will always be there to testify to that fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 here we go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Romans 8:1-5 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. When were you set free? When Christ died....You see "in Christ" you are free from the law (it has no authority over you) because you died to the law..in Christ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maschil Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 But to be in Christ is to die with Him, (Romans 6 and 7), but this happens daily, not 2,000 years ago.. It';s daily... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 I have to agree with daily Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 The Law Paul is talking about is the Ten Commandments. Romans 2:21-23 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, Ga 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. Ga 4:24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Paul makes it clear that what ever Law he is talking about the Ten Commandments are a major part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 What's your point wayfinder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 ah.. you are half right... the big difference as it is seen in Rom 3-5 especially. Is that you have to CHOOSE to accept Christ, You have already died "in Christ" 2000 year ago....You can't change that, but you can reject it.... Babies, for example, who died before they could understand all these issues, will they be in heaven? EGW says "yes"....How? They never accepted, right? Then how? Because they already died to the law in the body of Christ....Christ has reversed our fall in Adam.... 5:18 So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 But Robert the law has always been there... But not all know of the law.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted August 2, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted August 2, 2009 Stan had this to say in another thread: Think about this. A person becomes a Citizen of Heaven... now he is no longer bound by laws A 'Illegal' becomes a US Citizen.... now he is no longer bound by the laws. Anyone see weirdness or truth in that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 No truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Wierdness, but hey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maschil Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Originally Posted By: Akintunde ah.. you are half right... the big difference as it is seen in Rom 3-5 especially. Is that you have to CHOOSE to accept Christ, You have already died "in Christ" 2000 year ago....You can't change that, but you can reject it.... Babies, for example, who died before they could understand all these issues, will they be in heaven? EGW says "yes"....How? They never accepted, right? Then how? Because they already died to the law in the body of Christ....Christ has reversed our fall in Adam.... 5:18 So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life. ah.. Now i get it... this is what Romans 5:18-20 mean That is his conclusion. His argument is pretty strong regarding how the gospel can be provided for all. In other words, Jesus created a new race. There is the first Adam’s race and the second Adam Q: Doesn’t that support forensic justification? A: (I was waiting for that) This is the reason why He is called the second Adam. He has the ability as one man to influence everyone. In that sense He is the second Adam. Adam means the father of everything. The second Adam is the Father of something else. He is creating a new race. When we talk about being born again, we change from the first Adam to Second Adam. Conversion causes us to go from first Adam to Second Adam and that transition is in Chapter 6! That is where we are going PO: Maybe this is why he is called the Ever lasting Father in Is 9:6 Q: How is everyone affected through Jesus? A: Did Adam affect everyone? Yes; Did Jesus affect everyone? Yes, in what way? The opportunity is given to all man. The free gift has come to all men. Right? Ok, where is the proof? Where is the proof that everyone is affected here? Death! Paul used death as evidence. Why are people dying? Because of Adam, why are people going to die? Because they have fallen human nature. Why do they have fallen human natures? Because they got it from Adam. The way to prove that everyone is affected by Adam is that everyone is going to die A: How do we prove that because of what Jesus has done the opportunity came to everyone? How do we know that everyone has been affected by the death of Jesus? You must contrast We know that everyone is affected here because they die. Therefore, we know that everyone is affected because they will live? What? The life we have now? No, everyone is going live because? Does this mean forensic justification, or universal salvation? Does it mean everyone is justified? Or we know that that the free gift of justification came to all man. How do we know that everyone was able to be justified? RESURRECTION. We know that everyone could have been justified, you know why? Everyone will be resurrected. It is just that there are two resurrections. Listen, no one is supposed to receive any resurrection at all. If you die that’s it. Just the fact that you are resurrected it is proof that you could have been saved. Understand! No one is suppose to receive the resurrection, absolutely no one. The first death should be an eternal sleep. 1 Corin 15:21 “For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.” Adam gave us death ‘by man’ – who is that? Jesus 1 Corin 15:22 “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” ‘even so’ ‘in Christ shall all be made alive’ How many will be made alive? ALL IT’S JUST THAT 1 Corin 15:23 “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.” ‘in his OWN ORDER’ HOW DO YOU KNOW EVERYONE HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE SAVED AND RECEIVE JUSTIFICATION?EVERYONE WILL BE RESURRECTED! That is the ultimate proof. Now Paul has to prepare us for a better resurrection. That is why in chapter 6 you die with Jesus you will come up with Jesus. That is why we have baptism in chapter 6. Do you get it? In chapter 8 He that has the spirit of Christ shall be risen with Christ. ‘Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation’ Is this an absolute statement? Meaning truly without any condition all were affected by one man. True or false?a Because of one man’s sin all are affected by Adam? True Adam – From him we receive fallen human nature, and we receive this fallen human nature without our choice. And because we have fallen human nature we commit sin. And when we commit sin that is with our choice. We didn’t have our choice when we received fallen human nature. And with fallen human nature what else do we receive? Death And we receive death without our choice.However death reveals that there was sin. Sin reveals that there is fallen human nature. Of course, not exactly so with Adam, when he was perfect he sinned when he had unfallen nature, we are not talking about that. We are talking about the descendents of Adam. The descendents of Adam without our choice we receive fallen human nature with that comes sin and death, even though we sin with our choice. When we receive fallen human nature, if God is not really helping us, guess what will happen with that fallen human nature? And we choose sin based upon our choice, but yet it came with our fallen human nature which was not our choice. This is where we are splitting hairs in distinguishing between the origin of sin Vs. original sin. Original sin says that we are guilty for Adam’s sin. But the origin of sin says sin began with Adam and because of that all of us are affected, but we are not guilty for his sin, we are guilty for our own sin, but it is just that our sin was inevitable because of our possession of fallen human nature.And this is what we call the ‘law of sin and death’ As long as we are obeying the law of sin and death we are under ‘condemnation’. Second Adam & Jesus about the babies.. thats not the case.. not all babies will be ressurected... if i remember her statements correctly, which statement are you refering to.. What your saying Robert sounds like forensic justification... There is a difference in how we are affected by the deaths of Adam and Jesus, and that difference is very important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Weirdness yes. Truth no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Akintunde, You must type really fast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maschil Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Akintunde, You must type really fast! lOL, I already had the document ready, It seems that Romans truly is and might remain the most debated book in the Bible. perhaps i put some more material on here, for the sake of discussion and adding to what i have previously studied... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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