"Released from the Law"

[Robert]

In a word -- "no".

No, Bob is a typical SDA....He thinks he is keeping the law and that somehow this will gain him heaven....In a word he is a subtle legalist. He preaches a Galatian gospel, what Paul calls "another gospel"....But he'll come around....IT took me many years....

[BobRyan]

No, Bob is a typical SDA

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Hence Paul argues "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we Establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

Out of context....You do not establish the law.

Take it up with God. He is the one who inspired Paul to write that -- not me.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

I also preach the fact that Paul's SAME "one Gospel" is seen in Romans 2 where he says clearly "according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of all men" (a statement that Paul makes that I think we have yet to see Robert agree with).

Yes, God looks at your motives....He knows if your pride is in your works and your denomination....Many will say to Him, Lord, Lord....If you read on they build their homes on the sand of self-righteousness instead of the Rock Jesus Christ and His righteousness....

And you don't preach Paul's gospel...you preach "another gospel"

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Out of context....You do not establish the law.

Take it up with God. He is the one who inspired Paul to write that -- not me.

in Christ' date='

Bob [/quote']

No, I'm taking up with you....Are you now righteous as God is righteous? Please keep in mind 1 John 1:8....SO your response should be "no".

Let's return to your zealous view of Rom 3:31

Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law. [Young's Literal Translation]

Paul isn't talking about the believer's faith. Instead he is referring to THE FAITH, Jesus Christ.

Back up to verse 21:

"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. ...28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. .... 31 Do we then make void the law by the faith [Jesus]? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law."

The subject is belief in Christ through justification by faith. Does belief in this doctrine, established by Christ, make void the law? No! Why? Because in the doing and dying of Christ YOU fulfilled the law "in Him"!

[Richard Holbrook]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

King James got it right. You can't trust YLT.

[Robert]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

King James got it right. You can't trust YLT.

Then Paul is contradicting himself if you say it's the believers faith....Because no matter how much you grow you are not establishing the law.

[Richard Holbrook]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

King James got it right. You can't trust YLT.

Then Paul is contradicting himself if you say it's the believers faith....Because no matter how much you grow you are not establishing the law.

I didn't say I was establishing the law.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Then Paul is contradicting himself if you say it's the believers faith....Because no matter how much you grow you are not establishing the law. [/quote']

I didn't say I was establishing the law.

Well, you are telling me that believers establish the law....Are you a believer? If so, and if you take this to mean the believer's faith, then you make void the law....

[Richard Holbrook]

Explain please

[Robert]

Read this carefully and thoughtfully:

Read!

Here's a sample:

Let’s go to number three: grammatically. You see, the word “faith” is the key state word in this verse, 31:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [some translations read: Do we then make void the law through faith?]

Now the word “faith” has more than one meaning in the New Testament. Paul is not saying here, “Do we then make void the law through our faith?” He is not discussing the believer’s faith, which is one of the key definitions of faith in the New Testament. But he’s not discussing that, because, in the original, which is not in the English [translations of the] Bible, in the original, the word “faith” is preceded by the definite article. So what Paul says here is:

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? [some translations read: Do we then make void the law through the faith?]

When he uses the word faith with the definite article, it can have more than one meaning. I want to give you an example of what it can mean before I turn to this verse. Turn your Bibles to a very important passage, Galatians chapter 3, the passage that brought a tremendous controversy, not only in the Christian church, but in ours, 100 years ago. Galatians chapter 3, and I want to look at two verses, 23 and 25. And here Paul does the same thing. He uses the word faith with the definite article. I read in verse 23:

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

Now what is Paul saying in verse 23? The word “faith” here is not applying to the believer’s faith but to the object of faith, which is Jesus Christ. So what Paul is saying here in Galatians 3:23 is: “Before Christ came, historically, before He came to this world, before Christ came and redeemed us by His life and death, the human race was kept in prison. We were all in death row legally before Christ came.”

In other words, even Enoch and Moses, even Elijah, had no right to be in heaven. But they were there because of a promise. If Christ had failed to keep that promise, they would have to come down and die. But the fact is that, legally, the whole world was in prison, sentenced to eternal death, until the faith of Christ came. That is why Paul says in Galatians 3, verses 24-25:

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

In verse 23, the faith had not come; in verse 25, He had already come. But after the faith had come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law [or “under the schoolmaster,” as some translations read] because Christ has set us free.

So the word faith in Galatians 3 does not refer to the believer’s faith, but to the object of the believer’s faith, which is Jesus Christ.

[Richard Holbrook]

OK, if that's true then verse 26 would mean: 26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by Christ Jesus in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

He is still talking about faith here.

[Richard Holbrook]

I wasn't trying to make you mad Robert.

[Woody]

Good Read Robert. Thanks.

[Dr. Rich]

Was there any sin before the law? If the law is how one knows about sin, then how could there by any sin before the law?

[Woody]

There always has been law. That's how we know that Lucifier's rebellion was sin.

[Dr. Rich]

Redwood wrote: "There always has been law. That's how we know that Lucifier's rebellion was sin."

Could you be so kind as to provide the text to prove your statement?

Romans 5:12-13 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned for until the Law (given to Moses), sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

So tell me, how can your statment be true if sin entered into this world by one man? And since the law had not been given until it was given to Moses, just what law did Adam break?

Was Adam righteous or sinful when He was made out of the earth? Didn't the writer of Romans also say that the flesh is evil? Does this mean that God made evil flesh out of earth?

[Richard Holbrook]

Sin didn't originate in this world.

[Dr. Rich]

Great! Now I see that you don't agree with the writer of Romans either. And all this time I thought you were the one who claimed that all of the NT was the inspired word of God.

[Richard Holbrook]

you're in left field DR

I'm gonna start calling you lefty. LOL

[Dr. Rich]

Hey, no problem! LOL

[Robert]

He is still talking about faith here.

Depends....You must look at the immediate context....Also, get a good Greek Bible to see where "the" has been omitted.

Rob

[Robert]

Was there any sin before the law? If the law is how one knows about sin, then how could there by any sin before the law?

Sure, sin began in heaven....There was no visible law there....And from the fall till Moses, again no visible law....

[Dr. Rich]

Come on you guys, you have not answered by questions. And you have not provided any scripture as evidence for your speculation. You make a statement but can't back up your statement with facts/evidence.

So tell me, just how did sin begin in heaven? And what do you mean there was no 'visible law' till Moses?

If the 'wages of sin is death' then don't you think it would be important to know the real meaning of sin?

If John told us that one will not have any sin by abiding in the words of Jesus, then please identify and define for me by using scripture, the understanding of 'SIN'!

Just telling me I am 'in left field' does not answer my important questions. Am I making you work to hard here?

[Richard Holbrook]

First of all, you are the one long on speculation and short on proof. Everything you 3 guys put forth requires us to believe your reasoning and your opinion instead of scripture.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

In your reasoning you have probably thrown out this portion of scripture also. Which leaves you in a very incredible position, so you might want to think twice before hollering "I want proof, I want proof".

There is plenty of proof, but not for anyone so blind that they will not see.