Dr. Rich Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Ron Wrote: "Is there any record in the New Testament of Paul disobeying Old Testament law after accepting Jesus as the Messiah?" Well DUH? Of course there is--lots of places. Paul did not show any love to the 12 disciples did he? If so, show me where. Here is the bottom line (my bottom line): "Trust and Obey, for there is NO other way, to be happy in Jesus, then to Trust and Obey." BTW--Thanks 'wayfinder'. What you wrote sums it all up nicely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Gerry's quote goes much farther than "attitude" it goes to actual "walk" What does that mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 ...whatever Paul was trying to say, it is evident that being "released from the law" does not result in disobedience to God's law. It is because you and I fall short that God had to deliver us from under law. Obedience, in the true sense of the word, is living Christ's life. Disobedience is anything short of that....So if you wish to call yourself obedient you are blind. Call it partial obedience, but not obedience. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Today the Seventh-day Adventists are the kingdom of heaven and those who obey (five wise bridesmaids) enter the marriage feast, those who disobey (five foolish) are not allowed to enter, ever. To eat from the Tree of Life is to obey the commandments of God, obey and live forever, disobey and be dead forever (second death). No comment.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Robert, Where do you get the idea that you can be 'partially' obedient to the will of God and still be in the Kingdom of Heaven? You certainly did not get that from the words of Jesus Christ Himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Amnsn Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Ron Wrote: "Is there any record in the New Testament of Paul disobeying Old Testament law after accepting Jesus as the Messiah?" Well DUH? Of course there is--lots of places. Paul did not show any love to the 12 disciples did he? If so, show me where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Dr. Rich, there is no law in the Old Testament that says one must show love to the 12 disciples. It does say that you must "love your neighbor as yourself". I think the burden of proof would be on you to show that Paul actually disobeyed Old Testament law. I have to agree with Ron here Dr. Rich. You always act like the burden of proof is on us to prove Adventism, but it's not. The pillars of our faith have already been proven. You're the one who has stepped away from the light. So it is you who must do the proving. The things that you propagate tear down almost every aspect of Adventism, yet you still want to be called by the name SDA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Amnsn Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn ...whatever Paul was trying to say, it is evident that being "released from the law" does not result in disobedience to God's law. It is because you and I fall short that God had to deliver us from under law. Obedience, in the true sense of the word, is living Christ's life. Disobedience is anything short of that....So if you wish to call yourself obedient you are blind. Call it partial obedience, but not obedience. Perhaps my meaning would have been clearer if I had said "... does not result in intentional disobedience or disregard for God's law." Rob, your ultra legalistic definition of obedience apparently differs from God's definition of obedience. God testified of Abraham, "Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." (Gen 26:5) We know from reading the story of Abraham that Abraham made mistakes. However, God's law includes provisions for repentance, grace, and forgiveness. God apparently considers a person obedient when, after making a mistake, they follow the provisions instructed by God. For someone who is born again, the purpose of obedience to God is not to obtain salvation or status with God, just as a child's obedience to his parents is not for the purpose of obtaining birth or membership in the family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 How many of the ten commandments do I have to show you that Paul broke will it take for you to remove the glasses with Paul's stigmatism in the lenses? Let’s start with Paul’s own confession. Didn’t he say that no one was sinless? Well then, would not that include him? If not, then would not that be being a false witness? Or don’t you agree that a confession will not hold water? If not, then about the foundation of Paul’s gospel. This foundational verse is Gal. 3:6. Paul is doing what Satan did, using one verse in Gen. 15:6 as proof that all one has to do is believe in God and you will be reckoned by God to be righteous. “Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Yes, Gen 15:6 says “Then he believed in the Lord and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. (or doing right).” But Paul gets into trouble in Romans 4 (read the whole chapter) because in verse 20 Paul states “Yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief…” Now take a look at what really happened with Abram—Gen :15:8, And he said, O Lord God, how may I know that I shall possess it? Do you call this unwavering belief? How about when God told Abraham Sarah was going to be the mother of many nations?? No, Abraham didn’t have unwavering belief—did he? What Paul did was mislead everyone into believing that Abram’s belief was unwavering. This is lying. Bearing false testimony. Breaking the 9th commandment, not to mention the 1st, 2nd and 3rd. In court, your whole testimony would be thrown out if you did something like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Paul quoted Genesis, no sin there. Abraham was circumsised at age 99. Think about that. What kind of unwavering manly faith is that, with no anesthesia? Would you do it? If the Angel hadn't of stopped him Abraham would have killed his own son. Again, what faith. Abraham may have made some mistakes, but he served God, he did what God said. He never willfully went against God, and God saw him as righteous like the text says. So I don't think I would change my whole theology because Paul quoted Genesis and called Abraham righteous. God counted him righteous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 RH, LOL, You didn't take off your glasses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 LOL, I think you need to put some on my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 LOL,, ya, I s'pose so. But thanks, I do like to laugh before hitting the sack. For what it is worth, I don't think Paul knew what he was doing as I do think he was being led by some spirit. Sure, I would love to have Paul's words being the truth for then I would not be arguing here in this thread. I am not woried that we will soon see what is really the truth. Let's just say the 'bell' has rung and you now heard it. You can never unhear it again (as they say in court). Once you told me it was not to late for be to come back--right? You know, I have seriously thought about that issue and I can honestly tell you that I can't. Some time I will tell you why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Holbrook Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 I would be interested to know why. I don't want you to be lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2009 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2009 But Paul gets into trouble in Romans 4 (read the whole chapter) because in verse 20 Paul states “Yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief…” Now take a look at what really happened with Abram—Gen :15:8, And he said, O Lord God, how may I know that I shall possess it? Do you call this unwavering belief? How about when God told Abraham Sarah was going to be the mother of many nations?? No, Abraham didn’t have unwavering belief—did he? What Paul did was mislead everyone into believing that Abram’s belief was unwavering. This is lying. Bearing false testimony. Breaking the 9th commandment, not to mention the 1st, 2nd and 3rd. In court, your whole testimony would be thrown out if you did something like this. Paul is not saying that Abram always had perfect faith or that his faith never wavered. Everyone knows the story of how Abram thought that he had to help God fulfill his promise of a son. You've referred us to Gen. 15: 8, but 15: 6 itself says that "Abram believed in the Lord and He counted it to him as righteousness." So the apostle Paul is merely agreeing with what Inspiration says in Gen. 15: 6. Now read the rest of the story, beginning with Gen. 17, and including chapter 22, which tells of Abraham's test. Also include the testimony of Scripture in Hebrews 11. Watch as Abraham's faith in God grew and developed. Remember that Abram demonstrated faith from the time that God called him to leave Haran. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Robert,Where do you get the idea that you can be 'partially' obedient to the will of God and still be in the Kingdom of Heaven? You certainly did not get that from the words of Jesus Christ Himself. Are you living Christ's selfless life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Perhaps my meaning would have been clearer if I had said "... does not result in intentional disobedience or disregard for God's law." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Amnsn Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 How many of the ten commandments do I have to show you that Paul broke will it take for you to remove the glasses with Paul's stigmatism in the lenses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Amnsn Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn Perhaps my meaning would have been clearer if I had said "... does not result in intentional disobedience or disregard for God's law." The law doesn't care how you sin....Sin is sin, unintentional or not....The law demands one thing: Perfect obedience.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Ron, you have wielded the sword effectively and truthfully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Matthew 5:17, 18 and 19 vs Eph 2:8, Rom 6:14, 1Cor 9:20, Gal. 3:23, Gal. 4:5,21 Paul's doctrine is the same doctrine of Balaam. Paul taught that eating meat sacrificed to Idols meant nothing. Sabbath--Col. 2:16 and Rom. 14:5 Circumcision--1Cor 7:18,19 Gal 5:1-6 Just remember, "Faith in un-verified thought is superstition". Look at the warning in John. 5:43 and Jude 4 and then see that just about every letter by Paul starts out with "I, Paul" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Dr Rich, Good to see you, my less than well guided friend. Who are you responding to? Or were you just thinking out loud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Quote: The law doesn't care how you sin....Sin is sin, unintentional or not....The law demands one thing: Perfect obedience.... Excellent point that so many just don't get. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Robert, are you saying that the moral law did not exist in Genesis? I believe it existed, along with most of the other commandments, statutes and ordinances that were later written down in the Law of Moses.... The law written in stone didn't exist before Moses. Would you like Paul? Romans 5:13 ...for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. What you are trying to tell me is that the law existed in heaven. Well, most of it doesn't even apply to angels....Let's look at this: 1] "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you." Angels have no Father and mother....They were created by God, much like Adam. This doesn't directly apply. 2] "You shall not murder. This applies 3] "You shall not commit adultery. " This doesn't apply....Angels are sexless 4] "You shall not steal. This applies 5] "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor." This applies 6] "You shall not covet..." This applies... Anyway, you get my point. The Ten Commandments were made after the fall and particularly suited to fallen mankind. Paul says the law was given to turn sin into transgression. Before you were a sinner, but you didn't know it. Now comes the law and makes matters worse! So the Ten Commandments, as we know them, didn't exist in heaven. Then what law existed? Was in written in stone? No!!! "Agape" existed....It was self-love (a u-turn agape) that brought death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 will you admit that God's concept of obedience is different than your legalistic view of obedience? God's view of obedience is summed in His laws, especially the spirit of the law...but a far better standard is Jesus Himself for, as we are told, He fulfilled the laws of God. What does the law require of the sinner? 1] Perfect obedience, obey & live 2] Perfect justice, disobey & die (the 2nd death) 3] Perfection of the flesh (holy flesh) - a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. Christ, in His doing & dying, fulfilled all 3 of these. You and I fail in all 3, therefore we are not law obedient. Comprehend? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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