"Released from the Law"

[Robert]

To support my assertion I point you to Leviticus 6:1-7. It is just one of several passages in the Law of Moses which talks about those who have sinned being forgiven after following the provisions set out by God. The passage ends with, "And the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things that one may do and thereby become guilty.

If the law has in it forgiveness then Christ need not have died. The law could have said, "Okay, try not to sin again - you're forgiven!"

Ah, but the law isn't in the forgiveness business....Its job is to demand and condemn those who break it....

[Robert]

God said Abraham obeyed. So which is it?

Okay, read all that is said in the book of Genesis on Abraham's obedience and see if these commands are in the Ten Commandments. I have, and they aren't.....

Rob

[Dr. Rich]

RH, if you would have looked in the box in the post you would have seen it said: RE: Richard Holbrook So I suppose I was answering the post that wanted verses for Paul breaking any old testament law. What I really wanted to say is that we don't have much about Paul breaking any law in the NT because of the editing and the books themselves have been cleaned up. I think I have said enough about this anyway--if no one cares about the confusion Paul caused, then so be it. However, this thread just proves my point--confusion came from the agents of the master of confusion.

[Guest]

Don't make me drive to California! ...LOL

[Lutz13]

RH, if you would have looked in the box in the post you would have seen it said: RE: Richard Holbrook So I suppose I was answering the post that wanted verses for Paul breaking any old testament law. What I really wanted to say is that we don't have much about Paul breaking any law in the NT because of the editing and the books themselves have been cleaned up. I think I have said enough about this anyway--if no one cares about the confusion Paul caused, then so be it. However, this thread just proves my point--confusion came from the agents of the master of confusion.

I believe you're here trying to cause confusion. Why does it matter if Paul broke any laws? Nobody is perfect! "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"(1 John 1:8)

[Guest]

I believe you're here trying to cause confusion. Why does it matter if Paul broke any laws? Nobody is perfect! "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"(1 John 1:8)

Thank you Lutz13

[Guest]

But DR cannot show where he broke any after his conversion.

[wayfinder]

We must look at the whole context, not just one verse.

1John 1:9

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So if we know about a sin we may have we must confess it. When we have confessed all our sin we would be sinless/righteous, John does say cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1John 2:4-7 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.

1John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1John 3:4-10 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Those who are born of Him practice righteousness, sin is lawlessness. Is there any question about who's righteousness is who's. No one who is born of God practices sin, what is sin, lawlessness. I remember reading somewhere, "where there is no law there is no violation". Where there is no law, that would be lawless.

[Guest]

I remember reading somewhere, "where there is no law there is no violation". Where there is no law, that would be lawless.

That would be true if there were no law. Paul was not saying there was no law.

And about 1John. Are we bringing some of the NT back into the fold?

[wayfinder]

RH, I love the NT, you know that, just not as a whole.

Here is another one.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

End of the law, that would mean the law does not continue on. The law ends, no more law, that is lawless. (in the context of righteousness)

[Guest]

Read the whole chapter wayf. You're saying things he's not.

[John317]

Wayfinder, have you looked at other ways that expression, "end of the law," in Romans 10:4, can be understood? There are two ways it may be understood in Paul's theology, both of which have validity:

1) Jesus Christ is the goal of the law; and 2) Christ is the end of the law for the purpose of justification and righteousness.

Consider Charles Williams' translation: "For Christ has put an end to law as a way to right standing for everyone who puts his trust in Him [Christ]."

Another good translation (Letters From Paul, Blackwelder): Indeed, Christ is the fulfillment [of everything in the whole realm] of law for righteousness to every individual who is trusting [in him]."

It would be contrary to what Paul wrote in Romans 3: 31; 6: 1, 15, etc.-- to say nothing of what Christ said in Matt. 5: 17-20-- for him to write that God's moral law came to an end. Paul is not advocating antinomianism; in fact, his epistles clearly oppose it.

[wayfinder]

The idea that Paul is conveying, is that to keep the law for righteousness is an exercise in futility. On the other hand, John says in chp 3:4-10, the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. The practice of the Law for righteousness does not end with Christ, but Christ sets the example we are to follow, this according to His disciple John.

Ro 4:13

For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Ga 2:21

"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

John says nothing about righteousness by faith and he is clear about keeping the law and righteousness. Paul says, if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly; therefore if we could keep the Law, Christ would not have had to die.

Christ died so we could be scantified/have our sins removed, not covered.

John 17:17-19 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

Sanctification comes through the word of God. The word of God is truth. Jesus said for their sakes I sanctify Myself, this can only mean that He placed Himself under the same scrutiny they will experience. Jesus was found to be without sin so that if we confess our sins, we can be cleansed from all unrighteousness.

[Guest]

1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

[Lutz13]

We must look at the whole context, not just one verse.

1John 1:9

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So if we know about a sin we may have we must confess it. When we have confessed all our sin we would be sinless/righteous, John does say cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1John 2:4-7 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.

1John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1John 3:4-10 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Those who are born of Him practice righteousness, sin is lawlessness. Is there any question about who's righteousness is who's. No one who is born of God practices sin, what is sin, lawlessness. I remember reading somewhere, "where there is no law there is no violation". Where there is no law, that would be lawless.

Right. When we sin, He instructs us to confess our sins and He will cleanse us from unrighteousness. This isn't a right away thing. Once you conquer one, there is another right around the corner! If you don't think so, then you are deceived and should pray to God to reveal your blind spots.

[John317]

Those who are born of Him practice righteousness, sin is lawlessness.

Notice it says "practice." In other words, those who are born of God don't go on practicing sin. They confess their sins, resist and overcome their sins. They don't practice lawlessness, or sin. "Practicing" something means doing it willfully and deliberately, with planning. It's something that is done customarily and habitually.

Quote:

No one who is born of God practices sin, what is sin, lawlessness. I remember reading somewhere, "where there is no law there is no violation". Where there is no law, that would be lawless.

But look at the context of this statement found in Romans 4: 15. It is not saying that there is no law. He is saying that "the Law only brings God's anger, because we do not obey it. Only if there is no law to break is there no breaking of the law." (The New Translation).

The first part of verse 15 could also be translated as, "For the Law inflicts punishment" (Richard Weymouth).

Therefore Paul is giving the condition under which there would be no breaking of the law, and that condition could only exist if there was no law. However, THE LAW DOES EXIST.

The first part of the verse says that the law brings God's wrath on us. That could not be if there was no law.

Paul is contrasting one way of gaining righteousness-- that is, by faith-- with the other way, that is, by law. And Paul says that the law only brings wrath because we all fail to keep it, and this proves that there is law.

How did Abraham and his descendants get the promise of God-- by law or by faith in God's promises? Paul's point is that it came through the righteousness of faith, not by law-obedience, because the law only brings God's wrath, or anger, due to disobedience.

The Complete Jewish Bible:

"For the promise to Avraham and his seed that he would inherit the world did not come through legalism but through the righteousness that trust produces. For if the heirs are produced by legalism, then trust is pointless and the promise worthless. FOR WHAT LAW BRINGS IS PUNISHMENT. BUT WHERE THERE IS NO LAW, THERE IS ALSO NO VIOLATION."

[phkrause]

John that's like premeditated sinning if you ask me.

pk

[John317]

Yes, the practice of sin is premeditated sinning. That's a very accurate way of putting it. But it is not only premeditated but it is habitual, or continual.

[wayfinder]

1 John 5:1-3 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born R227 of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

1 John 5:4

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith (conviction of the truth).

Strong's Number: 4102 Pistis

1.conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

Again John stresses observance of the commandments and, incidentally, the fact that they are not burdensome.

[Guest]

belief

[Robert]

RH, I love the NT, you know that, just not as a whole.

Here is another one.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

End of the law, that would mean the law does not continue on. The law ends, no more law, that is lawless. (in the context of righteousness)

A better translation is "Christ is the completion of the law...."

You see Christ fulfilled the law in His life....He lived a perfect life - He died the 2nd death and He was raised with a glorified humanity. That humanity is ours....Hence, we obeyed in Him...we died in Him...we were raised in Him and by faith I am complete before God's law.

[John317]

Notice, too, that John's stress is on an obedience that springs not from the flesh but from faith and from the Holy Spirit. That is also Paul's emphasis in Romans 1: 5; 16: 25, where he refers to the obedience that springs from faith. It is the kind of obedience that God is looking for. He's not looking for rote obedience or obedience that springs from fear but from faith and love.

[wayfinder]

Rob, I know you have said that Strong's is heresy, but here goes.

Romans 10:4 (end of the Law)

Strong's Number: 5056 Telos

1.end

a.termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)

b.the end

1.the last in any succession or series

2.eternal

c.that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue

d.the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose

[Dr. Rich]

RH--you can visit when it isn't so hot--I have a room you can stay in if you want. Was any uncle or relitive of yours a teacher in our schools in Colorado?

[Guest]

Don't think so