Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 JS teaches that all you have to do is accept that Christs perfect life is attributed to you. That your life of sin now is irrelevant, because you have that perfect life covering you. That is directly opposed by the SOP and Bible. Which teaches that Justification and sanctification are both necessary. JS teaches they are one and the same thing, that you will be changed at the coming of Christ. Ellen White categorically stated this was not so. The biblical evidence for this, is founded on a misuse of "we shall all be changed", taking it out of the context of physical change and trying to apply it to character change. So I disagree, JS is not teaching the Bible and SOP. But a form of "once saved always saved". Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 They all are inspired by the Holy Spirit ... just as I am. That was the gift given to each of us by Jesus. I have accepted His gift. And so have each of the authors I mentioned. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 They all are inspired by the Holy Spirit ... just as I am. That was the gift given to each of us by Jesus. I have accepted His gift. And so have each of the authors I mentioned. And how do you test this "inspiration" you have? Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 JS teaches that all you have to do is accept that Christs perfect life is attributed to you. That your life of sin now is irrelevant, because you have that perfect life covering you. That is directly opposed by the SOP and Bible. Which teaches that Justification and sanctification are both necessary. JS teaches they are one and the same thing, that you will be changed at the coming of Christ. Ellen White categorically stated this was not so. The biblical evidence for this, is founded on a misuse of "we shall all be changed", taking it out of the context of physical change and trying to apply it to character change. So I disagree, JS is not teaching the Bible and SOP. But a form of "once saved always saved". Long ago Mark. I stopped believing your accusations. I am not going to start believing them now. Again ... NO references. Just unfounded claims and accusations. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight JS teaches that all you have to do is accept that Christs perfect life is attributed to you. That your life of sin now is irrelevant, because you have that perfect life covering you. That is directly opposed by the SOP and Bible. Which teaches that Justification and sanctification are both necessary. JS teaches they are one and the same thing, that you will be changed at the coming of Christ. Ellen White categorically stated this was not so. The biblical evidence for this, is founded on a misuse of "we shall all be changed", taking it out of the context of physical change and trying to apply it to character change. So I disagree, JS is not teaching the Bible and SOP. But a form of "once saved always saved". Long ago Mark. I stopped believing your accusations. I am not going to start believing them now. Again ... NO references. Just unfounded claims and accusations. Long ago? I have not been on this board that long, are you referring to encounters with me on another id on a different board? Which ID would that have been? But let us consider your claim that my claim are unfounded: Jack: “Justification means all of Christ’s righteousness that He provided for us so that nothing more is required of us to qualify for heaven.’’—Beyond Belief, 103. Jack: “Righteousness ‘in Christ’ [justification] is the only means of our salvation, and unless we resist and reject it, it fully qualifies us for heaven both now and in the judgment.’’—Beyond Belief, 33. Jack: “The righteousness God, obtained for all humanity in Christ, is full of merit. It is this alone that qualifies us for heaven, now and in the judgment. The righteousness God produced in us, on the other hand, has no saving value.’’—Beyond Belief, 170. Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justification plus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. Jack: “God actually and unconditionally saved all humanity at the cross.’’—Beyond Belief, 8. Jack: “All that is necessary for our salvation from sin is already an accomplished fact in Christ.”—Beyond Belief, 118. Jack: “All three of these aspects of our salvation— justification, sanctification and glorification—have already been accomplished in the birth, life, death, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.”—Beyond Belief, 30. Jack: “Full and complete salvation has already been obtained in Jesus Christ . . [it is incorrect to believe that] salvation ultimately depends to some degree on his or her behavior.”—Beyond Belief, 91. Jack: “The entire human race is corporately one ‘in Jesus Christ,’ just as we are one ‘in Adam.’ What Jesus did, we have done, because we are corporately one in Him. His perfect life and death are considered to be our life and death as well.”—Beyond Belief, 37. Jack: “According to Paul, it is impossible for someone who truly understands salvation by grace, and who appreciates Christ’s cross, to go on condoning sin. Righteousness is by faith, and if the faith is there, the righteousness is sure to be there as well—and there is no sin in righteousness. “But that sin no longer has authority to condemn or control a believer, because such a person is no longer under the law’s control but under grace. “A believer is no longer under the law’s authority, sin can no longer bring upon the believer the law’s condemnation of eternal death. The believer is delivered from the power of sin. Jack: “There is a world of difference between sinning under the law and sinning under grace. In this sense, the law and Christ differ radically.”—Beyond Belief, 163-165. Jack: “We often describe the first aspect of salvation [justification]—the objective gospel—as the imputed righteousness of Christ. This is what qualifies the believer for heaven, both now and in the final judgment. We describe the second aspect of salvation— the subjective gospel [sanctification]—as the imparted righteousness of Christ in the life. It does not contribute in the slightest way to our qualification for heaven; it witnesses, or demonstrates, what is already true of us in Christ. Imparted righteousness does not qualify us for heaven.”—Beyond Belief, 32. Jack: “Stumbling under grace, falling into sin, does not deprive us of justification. Nether does it bring condemnation.”—Beyond Belief, 166. Jack: “If a person believes that salvation ultimately depends to some degree on his or her behavior, then the faith such a person is able to generate will naturally be polluted with self-concern.” Beyond Belief, 91. Jack: “When Christ died on the cross, all humanity was legally justified because all humanity died with Him there.”—Beyond Belief, 43. Jack: “In Him we lived a perfect life; in Him we died the penalty for sin.”—Beyond Belief, 48-49. Jack: “Biblically, the doctrine of substitution is based on the concept of corporate oneness. God can legally justify sinners because all humanity corporately obeyed the law in one Man, Jesus Christ. Only when we identify the humanity of Jesus with the corporate fallen humanity He came to redeem can we teach an ethical gospel that is unconditional good news.”—Beyond Belief, 48. Jack: “All that is necessary for our salvation from sin is already an accomplished fact in Christ.”—Beyond Belief, 118. Jack: “God did not give us His only-begotten Son so that we could copy Him, but so that we could receive Him . . God is not looking at us to see how good we are or how hard we are trying to keep His law.”—Beyond Belief, 98. Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 He should have named it "Unbelievable" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Sounds to me like pure Ellen White and scripture. I especially liked this one: Quote: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justificationplus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. Sanctification does not save anyone. Sanctification is just something that each and every Christian has. It is not possible to not have it. But it does not give or contribute to your saved status. That status is a done deal. It was done at the cross. All you have to do is to take it. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 What!? Ellen white dosn't say those things, neither does scripture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 I do not see here how JS and EGW are singing from the same song sheet, so only one of them can be inspired: ------------------------------- Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justification plus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. The desire for an easy religion that requires no striving, no self-denial, no divorce from the follies of the world, has made the doctrine of faith, and faith only, a popular doctrine; but what saith the Word of God? Says the apostle James: "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? . . . Wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?. . . Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:14-24). The testimony of the Word of God is against this ensnaring doctrine of faith without works. It is not faith that claims the favor of Heaven without complying with the conditions upon which mercy is to be granted, it is presumption; for genuine faith has its foundation in the promises and provisions of the Scriptures. . . . {RC 49.3} You repeated several times that works amounted to nothing, that there were no conditions. The matter was presented in that light that I knew minds would be confused and would not receive the correct impression in reference to faith and works, and I decided to write to you. You state this matter too strongly. There are conditions to our receiving justification and sanctification, and the righteousness of Christ. I know your meaning, but you leave a wrong impression upon many minds. While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works. God saves us under a law, that we must ask if we would receive, seek if we would find, and knock if we would have the door opened unto us. {FW 111.1} The True Sign of Sanctification . --Those who dishonor God by transgressing His law may talk sanctification , but it is of that value, and just as acceptable, as was the offering of Cain. Obedience to all the commandments of God is the only true sign of sanctification . Disobedience is the sign of disloyalty and apostasy (MS 41, 1897). ------------------------------ I do not see here that JS is just "quoting" SOP. But I seem him clearly opposing it... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Either you didn't read the quotes, or you really don't know much about scripture or Ellen White. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Jack: “In Him we lived a perfect life; in Him we died the penalty for sin.”—Beyond Belief, 48-49. Translation: Once saved always saved... Notice the past tense: "In Him we lived." Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Sounds to me like pure Ellen White and scripture. I especially liked this one: Quote: Jack: “The gospel of faith plus works, or justificationplus sanctification, is at the heart of Roman Catholic theology. It is a subtle form of ‘legalism.’ ”--Beyond Belief, 25. Sanctification does not save anyone. Sanctification is just something that each and every Christian has. It is not possible to not have it. But it does not give or contribute to your saved status. That status is a done deal. It was done at the cross. All you have to do is to take it. That's not an Adventist belief. You can belong to any of the Sunday churches and believe that. In fact if you believe that why bother to keep the Sabbath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Either you didn't read the quotes, or you really don't know much about scripture or Ellen White. Hmmmm. I thought I did and do. It's all in the doing and dying of Christ by which I am saved. I see that throughout the Bible and EGW. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Sanctification is just something that each and every Christian has. It is not possible to not have it. We are near the close of probation, when every case is to pass in review before God. Now, in probation, is the time God has given us for the formation of pure and holy characters. If this time is not improved, if the thoughts are impure, if the heart is not sanctified, if unholy practices are indulged, be sure that the portion of such will be with the unholy, the debased, the abominable. {HP 196.5} Please notice the bolded section, it is entirely possible for the Christian to not have sanctification... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook Either you didn't read the quotes, or you really don't know much about scripture or Ellen White. Hmmmm. I thought I did and do. It's all in the doing and dying of Christ by which I am saved. I see that throughout the Bible and EGW. No, you are not seeing those texts and quotes that do not agree with yours and JS' position. Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Quote: In fact if you believe that why bother to keep the Sabbath Because keeping the Sabbath helps me to keep in that saved relationship with Jesus. And to not reject Him and His sacrifice for me. All of the ten commandments do that. But they do not make me saved. That was done at the cross. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Quote: In fact if you believe that why bother to keep the Sabbath Because keeping the Sabbath helps me to keep in that saved relationship with Jesus. And to not reject Him and His sacrifice for me. All of the ten commandments do that. But they do not make me saved. That was done at the cross. Because keeping the Sabbath helps me to keep in that saved relationship with Jesus. So your observance of the law keeps you in your relationship with Christ. So if you are disobedient to the law, then you will be "out" of that saved relationship... Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Quote: No, you are not seeing those texts and quotes that do not agree with yours and JS' position. I do have to firmly state that I am NOT a Mark follower. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: In fact if you believe that why bother to keep the Sabbath Because keeping the Sabbath helps me to keep in that saved relationship with Jesus. And to not reject Him and His sacrifice for me. All of the ten commandments do that. But they do not make me saved. That was done at the cross. Amen. Good Quote brother Mark. But this agreement does not make me a follower of you. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Quote: No, you are not seeing those texts and quotes that do not agree with yours and JS' position. I do have to firmly state that I am NOT a Mark follower. That is a good thing... :-) But you are obviously a follower of JS' teachings. You do not seem to entertain any thought outside of them? Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Quote: So if you are disobedient to the law, then you will be "out" of that saved relationship... Obviously I did not say this. And obviously this is a false yo-yo statement of which I would never 'follow'. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Has it ever occurred to you Redwood that JS' is teaching a false gospel? Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Quote: So if you are disobedient to the law, then you will be "out" of that saved relationship... Obviously I did not say this. And obviously this is a false yo-yo statement of which I would never 'follow'. You stated that by keeping the Sabbath you remain in. So obviously, not keeping the Sabbath would have the opposite effect and you would be "out". If that is not the case, then you do not need to keep the Sabbath, if you cannot be "out". Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I have tested it and discovered it is clearly as presented in scripture and the SOP. I don't have to worry about false gospel. It is THE Gospel. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: So if you are disobedient to the law, then you will be "out" of that saved relationship... Obviously I did not say this. And obviously this is a false yo-yo statement of which I would never 'follow'. You stated that by keeping the Sabbath you remain in. So obviously, not keeping the Sabbath would have the opposite effect and you would be "out". If that is not the case, then you do not need to keep the Sabbath, if you cannot be "out". Mark You see, when works have no value, then it does not matter if you keep the Law or not. This has always been the enemies attack, to get rid of the Law. So when we have JS' form of "once saved always saved", we have a problem. We keep the Sabbath to stay "in relationship", but if we do not keep the Sabbath then we are still "in relationship". Two contradictory positions, both need to be accepted for your theology to work. Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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