Lutz13 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 I don't have a full membership on the forum so apparently I am unable to set up a new thread. I will continue on this thread in giving short answers to the questions raised about the First Beast of Rev.13. Preamble: The 1st Beast of Rev. 13 that has 7 heads, 10 horns and 10 crowns IS NOT the same as the 4th beast identified as the Great and Terrible Beast as seen in Dan.7. That Beast is commonly associated with the RCC and the Papacy. The two are totally different because the beast in Dan. 7 has one head and started with 10 horns, 3 were uprooted with another taking 1 taking the place of the 3. 10 - 3 = 7, 7 + 1 = 8. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. Dan. 7:7-8. And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. Rev. 13:1-2. The Daniel 7 beast has ONLY ONE HEAD, upon which are 10 horns. The Rev. 13 beast has TEN HEADS upon which are SEVEN heads. The common SDA interpretation is that these beasts are identical, but clearly they are not. I'll make one for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 MM, Here is why I believe they are the same. Beast from Daniel 7: Blasphemous. Persecutes the saints. Reigns for 1260 days. Arises out of divided Roman Empire. Lion, Bear, Leopard, 10 Horns. Diverse, Church and State. Beast from Revelation 13: Blasphemous. Persecutes the saints. Reigns for 42 months (1260 days) Rome gives power, seat and great authority. Lion, Bear, Leopard, 10 Horns. Beast (State), Church (Object of worship). Notice the beast from Revelation 13. It has the Leopard body, feet like the bear, mouth like the mouth of a lion. The papacy is a composite beast, a make up of those that have gone before it. The papacy today has kept the traditions of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. They just covered them up to look "christian" when they clearly are not. You should look into the clothes that they wear. The hat comes from the god Dagon. The cross with the circle acknowledges the sun god. There are many more. I do not really see Israel practicing blasphemy. The guy in the picture has it written all over him! I would suggest watching this video. He goes over many many symbols that were brought into Catholicism. It is quite interesting. Movie Link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 HEY LUTZ13 IF the list you posted for DANIEL 7 and REVELATION 13 are doing the same things then why are they different??? dgrimm60 The point that I am trying to make is that they are not different. The one in Revelation 13 is a composite of the beasts of Daniel 7. The Papacy absorbed ancient pagan traditions/symbols. It absorbed the Lion, Bear, and Leopard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Amen! This is the truth and nothing but the truth. The hat that the pope is wearing has the shape of the mouth of a fish, after the pagan godfish. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted August 27, 2009 Moderators Share Posted August 27, 2009 This post makes my spirit depart from my body in terror! We have had many good discussions on this topic here and this post looks like we have wasted good space printing the good discussions. The beast in Revelation is a composit beast incorporating all the beasts of Daniel 7, but also going beyond Daniel 7. The beasts are the 7 periods of anti-christ in history. Daniel 2 has 7 parts but emphesises 4 which the rest of Daniel was built on. But there is 1)the head of gold, 2) the breasts and arms of silver, 3)The belly and thighs of brass, 4) legs of iron 5) feet of iron and clay 6) toes of iron and clay 7) the attempt for the toes to join together that end in utter chaos followed by the setting up of the kingdom not made by mans hands. The beast of Revelation 13 is NOT merely the papacy but all the periods of anti-christ: 1) Babylon 2) Medio-persia, 3) Greece, 4) Rome, 5) The Holy Roman Empire (including the role the papacy played in this empire) 6) the deadly wound, where there are the 10 horns and the crowns are on the horns not the head: a period of independent nations and freedom. 7) the deadly wound being healed and as you study Revelation 18 your find that the last head is focused on the merchants of the earth, or the great corporations ruline the world. Today we are seeing a shift from the vision of Thomas Jefferson and our other founding fathers of a nation of the people, by the people and for the people, into the corporate american global empire is growing. If we only focus on a part of the 5th head and make that part of the 5th head the entire beast we are going to be sweped away when the enemy comes a different direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 MM, Here is why I believe they are the same. Beast from Daniel 7: Blasphemous. Persecutes the saints. Reigns for 1260 days. Arises out of divided Roman Empire. Lion, Bear, Leopard, 10 Horns. Diverse, Church and State. Beast from Revelation 13: Blasphemous. Persecutes the saints. Reigns for 42 months (1260 days) Rome gives power, seat and great authority. Lion, Bear, Leopard, 10 Horns. Beast (State), Church (Object of worship). Notice the beast from Revelation 13. It has the Leopard body, feet like the bear, mouth like the mouth of a lion. The papacy is a composite beast, a make up of those that have gone before it. The papacy today has kept the traditions of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. They just covered them up to look "christian" when they clearly are not. You should look into the clothes that they wear. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 The beast in Revelation is a composit beast incorporating all the beasts of Daniel 7, but also going beyond Daniel 7. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart (SDA) Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I'm not wanting to sound a discordant note here. But I am interested to note that the seven heads of the Beast seem to be equated with Babylon, Medo-Persia, etc. I don't know how many of you would be familiar with the work of the early men in our church with regards to these seven heads. But as far as I'm aware they all (at least Andrews, Smith, Jones, and Bates) all taught that the seven heads represented the seven forms (or modes) of government that the Roman State passed through. (It began with Kings, later the State was literally ruled by Consuls, after that the Roman State re-adapted to changing circumsatnces, and moved through another 5 "headships", ending with the Popes who effectively controlled the temporal/secular Empire.) The pioneers seriously considered the view that the seven heads pointed to Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, etc., but they all rejected that view. ____________ I don't have my Bible or books with me, but doesn't Scripture encourage us to treat the old, experienced workers with double honor; carefully considering the work and leading of such men? Stewart. I really don't know whether this makes any Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Yes it does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 The first beast, of Revelation 13, represents the one world government at the end of time. It appears at the time of the feet (Daniel 2) and is the one world order that the dragon sets up to prepare the world for his appearing. The beast is a composite of the first three beasts of Daniel 7 (Babylon, Media-Persia and Greece). Daniel 7:11,12 "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time. Notice that the fourth "beast was slain and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire", this beast, the great and terrifying beast which represented the Empire of Rome is gone forever. The rest of the beasts (Babylon, Media-Persia and Greece) no longer had dominion but their influence/Ideology continued and all three reappear in the first beast of Revelation 13. Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. The first three beasts are all represented in this composite beast. One thing this beast does not represent, in its entirety, is the RCC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Where's the blasphemy on the head of a one world government? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Each head had a blasphemous name on it. Any ruler claiming a devine mandate to rule, without such mandate, blasphemes God. The text states that the dragon gives this beast his throne and great authority and it makes the world worship the dragon. Revelation 13:4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 There is no one world government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 It is coming, soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 They have tried and tried again to make one world governments, but every time someone has tried to set up another one world government, thay have failed. Do you know why wayfinder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 God said it won't happen again. They will not cleave one to another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 QR frame: Well, Pope John Paul is missing only the robe of scales, yes? c’mon, since when has similarity necessarily translated to sameness? Didn’t early Xtians employ the fish as symbolizing Jesus Christ and the fact that they were Xtians? Indeed, and it remains so today... I remember when it was bruited that the Pope wore a triple-crowned hat – a real hysteria generator... Wha’happened since? was it found that Josephus mentioned that the High Priest of Jerusalem wore a triple-crowned head cover? I don’t generally attempt to circumscribe funnin’, but bear in mind that it is questionable to dwell upon the hyperbole of dogmas developed centuries ago vis-à-vis the book of Daniel. Remember, the book of Daniel was sealed by Gd. That sealing remained in effect until only the relatively recent past. Before that, mankind still had no concept of germ theory or still, largely, “ran to and fro” on mare’s shank – why! during even the 19th century – churchfolk hitched horse to buggy to go to church. That hardly suggests that the book of Daniel had earlier been unsealed – though dogmas and doctrines were developed, repeated and/or redux. It is encouraging to see several posts above forwarding concepts that were not set in dogma centur(ies) ago, but show signs of recent development. ____________________ The above is not to take away from existing mythologies that aver that the first sentient beings arrived on earth – ‘falling’ from space into its seas and/or rivers – from which they emerged. We may see frightful ‘beings’ soon emerge from beneath our oceans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Yes, God hasn't had His angels blow their trumpets before. When the devastation of the first four trumpets happens, the people will welcome a one world order/government. The seven heads are seven kings/rulers, it is a global village. Did you see the movie Independence Day? The plot of this movie is that a global threat has come and the world is in danger of being destroyed. We already see some semblance of what can happen when the world is threatened by an unseen enemy, tighter government controls on almost everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 You must think the 2nd coming is a long way off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 The second coming will be the coming like a thief, anytime between now and end of June or early July 2012. The trumpets would start around spring equinox 2016. The coming in the clouds would be in the fall of 2019. It is not that far away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutz13 Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 QR frame: Well, Pope John Paul is missing only the robe of scales, yes? c’mon, since when has similarity necessarily translated to sameness? Didn’t early Xtians employ the fish as symbolizing Jesus Christ and the fact that they were Xtians? Indeed, and it remains so today... I remember when it was bruited that the Pope wore a triple-crowned hat – a real hysteria generator... Wha’happened since? was it found that Josephus mentioned that the High Priest of Jerusalem wore a triple-crowned head cover? I don’t generally attempt to circumscribe funnin’, but bear in mind that it is questionable to dwell upon the hyperbole of dogmas developed centuries ago vis-à-vis the book of Daniel. Remember, the book of Daniel was sealed by Gd. That sealing remained in effect until only the relatively recent past. Before that, mankind still had no concept of germ theory or still, largely, “ran to and fro” on mare’s shank – why! during even the 19th century – churchfolk hitched horse to buggy to go to church. That hardly suggests that the book of Daniel had earlier been unsealed – though dogmas and doctrines were developed, repeated and/or redux. It is encouraging to see several posts above forwarding concepts that were not set in dogma centur(ies) ago, but show signs of recent development. ____________________ The above is not to take away from existing mythologies that aver that the first sentient beings arrived on earth – ‘falling’ from space into its seas and/or rivers – from which they emerged. We may see frightful ‘beings’ soon emerge from beneath our oceans. Closing your eyes to a truth won't change that truth. It is crystal clear to see what is going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 The second coming will be the coming like a thief, anytime between now and end of June or early July 2012. The trumpets would start around spring equinox 2016. The coming in the clouds would be in the fall of 2019. It is not that far away. And how did you arrive at this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 It is a long story and I will tell you sometime, if you are interested. I did send an explanation to jasd, have not had a response as yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 >>Closing your eyes to a truth won't change that truth.<< Exactly! Quote: Quote:jasd ...bear in mind that it is questionable to dwell upon the hyperbole of dogmas developed centuries ago vis-à-vis the book of Daniel. Remember, the book of Daniel was sealed by Gd. It is not that I purport, “It is I who have the truth re this or that.” What I do suggest is: our doctrines ought to be as faultless as we are able to develop them, especially, should we be able to avail to ourselves such as that asserted to reside with the BRI and its supposed erudition. To simply ignore the adjuration(s) of Gd that the book of Daniel be sealed is to borrow and infuse our arguments with discordance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 jasd, You do have a way with words, and it appears, to me, that you are honest with yourself, you would be amazed at how hard that is for most people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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