The Beast of Revelation 13

[Lutz13]

>>Closing your eyes to a truth won't change that truth.<<

Exactly!

Quote:

Quote:jasd

...bear in mind that it is questionable to dwell upon the hyperbole of dogmas developed centuries ago vis-à-vis the book of Daniel. Remember, the

book of Daniel was sealed by Gd.

It is not that I purport, “It is I who have the truth re this or that.” What I do suggest is: our doctrines ought to be as faultless as we are able to develop them, especially, should we be able to avail to ourselves such as that asserted to reside with the BRI and its supposed erudition.

To simply ignore the adjuration(s) of Gd that the book of Daniel be sealed is to borrow and infuse our arguments with discordance.

Right, sealed until when?

"But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase"(Daniel 12:4) The book is no longer sealed.

[Guest]

Amen Lutz

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: jasd

>>Closing your eyes to a truth won't change that truth.<<

Exactly!

Quote:

Quote:jasd

...bear in mind that it is questionable to dwell upon the hyperbole of dogmas developed centuries ago vis-à-vis the book of Daniel. Remember, the

book of Daniel was sealed by Gd.

It is not that I purport, “It is I who have the truth re this or that.” What I do suggest is: our doctrines ought to be as faultless as we are able to develop them, especially, should we be able to avail to ourselves such as that asserted to reside with the BRI and its supposed erudition.

To simply ignore the adjuration(s) of Gd that the book of Daniel be sealed is to borrow and infuse our arguments with discordance.

Right, sealed until when?

"But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase"(Daniel 12:4) The book is no longer sealed.

If the prophecies of Daniel are sealed UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END then don't you think that it would be important to know when the TIME OF THE END would occur?

If these times are not definable then we can't trust God to let his bondservants know the times and dates that God has set with His own authority, and the events that will shortly take place as described in Revelation.

[Guest]

We do know MM.

[Kevin H]

God said it won't happen again. They will not cleave one to another.

No, God does NOT say that it will not happen again, Adventist tradition has said that, But what God does say in saying that they will not cleave one to another, is that the attemtp will last for a very short time and end up in utter chaos. It is not going to work out and be a nice long period like the other parts of the image. The last union will also be different in that it is not some great government as such but a union of economic cooperation.

It is universal enough so that the whole world will face the issues that the 3 worthies faces with the image, Daniel with the lions den, John with the Domitation persecution. And universal enough for a universal death decree.

[Lutz13]

If the prophecies of Daniel are sealed UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END then don't you think that it would be important to know when the TIME OF THE END would occur?

To understand when the time of the end started, you would need to have an understanding of Daniel chapter 11 . The time of the end started in 1798.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

God said it won't happen again. They will not cleave one to another.

No, God does NOT say that it will not happen again, Adventist tradition has said that, But what God does say in saying that they will not cleave one to another, is that the attemtp will last for a very short time and end up in utter chaos. It is not going to work out and be a nice long period like the other parts of the image. The last union will also be different in that it is not some great government as such but a union of economic cooperation.

It is universal enough so that the whole world will face the issues that the 3 worthies faces with the image, Daniel with the lions den, John with the Domitation persecution. And universal enough for a universal death decree.

I agree with what you have said. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Fortunately there is nothing to fear as long as we have our faith in Jesus.

[BobRyan]

1. In Rev 7 the four winds are witheld until the saints are sealed. When the sealing is over so the Latter Rain will have been ended - and the four winds are the nations angry with one another and eventually (soon after) it is the nations in the battle of Armageddon against God.

Essentially John is describing Armageddon in Rev 7 as the thing that follows the sealing of the saints -- which means that the other plagues of Rev 16 come in quick succession leading to Armageddon.

2. Rev 13 does describe a "forced" global unity where the lamb-like beast "causes aLL who dwell on the earth" to worship the first beast. We know that the setting up of such a state is connected with the "image to the beast" (the unholy union of church-state on the subject of worship) and leads from there to the "mark of the beast" that is directly opposed to the seal of God.

3. We also know from Rev 14 that the first angel HAS sounded "The hour of His judgment HAS come" -- the 1844 event marking the start of the judgment is already long past -- judgment HAS come.

We also know that While the 2nd angel did sound in the summer of 1844 (before the Oct 22 event) -- we also know that it's perfect fulfillment is yet future.

The same goes for the 3rd angel's message that sounded AFTER the Oct 22 event - it will yet swell into the loud cry of Rev 18 -- in the future.

But it tells us that the issue will be between those who "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" and those who "have the mark of the beast".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

As noted before - the first beast of Rev 13 is the Papacy and is identified by no less than 10 markers in Rev 11-13 and Dan 7 through 8.

1. The 666 statement applies to the title for the pope so explicitly admitted in the Catholic document "The Donation of Constantine" -- purported to be a NON-Catholic document of emperor constantine in the 4th century - but now known to a CATHOLIC document from the 6th century. That document has been used in a number of courts over the centuries establishing Rome's claim to civil power.

2. The RCC is the only power that took over all of the former Roman empire with even greater influence -- lasting for 1260 years.

3. The RCC claims to have changed times and laws.

4. The RCC was a horrifically persecuting power in terms of their war on the saints.

5. The demise of the RCC power and the rise of the lamb-like beast were in conjunction just as the text states.

6. And as the video points out in detail the symbols borrowed from paganism are rife in that church.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

At first Constantine observed an attitude of formal correctness toward paganism. He remained its Supreme Pontiff, paid homage to the sun god on the official coinage, and in general was careful not to alienate the pagan masses…But he gradually revealed his true feelings. He imposed restrictions on pagan practice and publicly displayed the Christian symbols He attached the standards of the army to a cross emblazoned with the monograme of Christ and issued coins picturing himself wearing a helmet stamped with the same monogram…he increasingly identified the interests of the state with those of Christianity.

(Bokenkotter "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" page 38)

“The emperor showed great generosity to the Church in lavishing donations on it and erecting numerous sumptuous basilicas, including the magnificent one over the supposed site of the tomb of Peter at Rome and another over the tomb of Christ in Jerusalem. He surrendered HIS Lateran palace in Rome to the bishop of Rome for a residence and it remained the Papal residence until 1308. When in 324 he moved the capital of the Empire to Byzantium, which was renamed Constantinople after him, he erected numerous churches there…

"This alliiance with the state profoundly influenced every aspect of the church's thought and life. It carried many advantages, but it also entailed some serious drawbacks; ... Mass conversions where social conformity was the chief motivating factor; the widening gap between clergy and laity thanks to the official status conferred on them; persecution of dissenters as a menace to the unity of the state. The church would never be the same again - for better and for worse - and so Constantine's conversion is certainly one of the greatest turning points in the history of the Catholic church and of the world." Ibid - Pg 39

Ibid - Page 42

"the liturgy itself was considerably influenced by the Constantinian revolution. Millions of pagans suddenly entered the church and some of their customs inevitably crept into the liturgy; the use of the kiss as a sign of reverence for holy objects, the practice of genuflection, devotion to relics, use of candles, incense and other ceremonial features derived from the imperial court. Under this pagan influence Christians began to face the east while praying which made it necessary for the priest to lead prayers while his back was toward the congregation."

…

pg 43

for a long time the celebrant was left considerable freedom to improvise in conducting the liturgy. Even wording of the canon was left to his discretion.

[skyblue888]

Thanks for these posts. Very interesting.

sky

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

If the prophecies of Daniel are sealed UNTIL THE TIME OF THE END then don't you think that it would be important to know when the TIME OF THE END would occur?

To understand when the time of the end started, you would need to have an understanding of Daniel chapter 11 . The time of the end started in 1798.

What is said by many (SDA's and non-SDA's alike) is that in 1798 C.E. the Pope was captured by Napolean's general Berthier, and that this marks the end of the 1260 day/year prophecy a.k.a. 42 months of Dan.13:5 which is purported to have begun in 538 C.E.

The way that these dates were arrived at are important, because if either of these dates are wrong then the timing for the entire prophecy is wrong.

These dates make no sense to me for two reason: 1) absolutely NOTHING of any earthly significance happened in 538 C.E. and 2) Nothing of any earthy significance happened in 1798 C.E. that had not happened at least 5 times before. (ref. Catholic Encyclopedia)

The reason given for the date 1798 C.E. is that the RCC Pope was taken captive by war. This kind of event is not exclusive to 1798. The Pope being captured and taken into captivity or killed has happen at least 5 times in history BEFORE the incident in 1798 C.E. It is a fairly common occurrence so which one is the one significant to the prophecy and how do you decide which it is?

If, as I believe, the capturing of the Pope is not a significant event to this prophecy then going backward 1260 years from 1798 and getting 538 C.E. would also not be significant. If you check the historical record nothing unusual happened in 538 C.E. that has any bearing on, or is described in any prophecy.

This coupled with the fact that (as Wayfarer showed) the Empire of Rome was destroyed and put in the burning fire from which it will NEVER return (Dan.7:11), and the "dominion" (ruler-ship over territory and people) of the 'little horn' (Papacy) was taken away forever* shows me that the while the RCC will be one of the 7 heads of the beast in Rev. 13 it is not in and of itself THE Beast.

That being the case 1798 C.E. IS NOT the appointed time of the end as described in Daniel.

*[The Papacy controlled actual territory in Italy called the Papal States, over which the Pope had complete dominion over the land and the people. In 1869-70 C.E. the Italian Government annexed these Papal States taking them out from under Papal authority. This was done by force by the Italian Government under great protest by the RCC and the Papacy. In exchange for this territory the RCC and the Papacy was granted one square mile of property in downtown Rome as an independent country, and other significant financial benefits. This area became known as Vatican City. To this day the Papacy has not acknowledged the validity of this use of eminent domain by the Italian Government.]

[Guest]

MM what is C.E. ?

[John317]

These dates make no sense to me for two reason: 1) absolutely NOTHING of any earthly significance happened in 538 C.E.

Check out what happened in 538 AD. http://hubpages.com/hub/Battle-of-Rome-537-538-AD

What happened was the Ostrogoths were terribly defeated at Rome, a defeat from which they never recovered. It left the pope capable of ruling the Western church as the emperor wanted. So it was the year of the beginning of the rule of the bishop of Rome over the Western church.

See Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

It just so happens that this power, which fulfills prophecy as the little horn power which came out of the Roman Empire, received what appeared at the time to be a deadly wound in 1798-- exactly 1, 260 years later.

The Bible also says this same power would regain its former position and influence, and we have seen that it's doing that, too.

[Lutz13]

The reason given for the date 1798 C.E. is that the RCC Pope was taken captive by war. This kind of event is not exclusive to 1798. The Pope being captured and taken into captivity or killed has happen at least 5 times in history BEFORE the incident in 1798 C.E. It is a fairly common occurrence so which one is the one significant to the prophecy and how do you decide which it is?

[skyblue888]

Exactly!

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

These dates make no sense to me for two reason: 1) absolutely NOTHING of any earthly significance happened in 538 C.E.

Check out what happened in 538 AD. http://hubpages.com/hub/Battle-of-Rome-537-538-AD

What happened was the Ostrogoths were terribly defeated at Rome, a defeat from which they never recovered. It left the pope capable of ruling the Western church as the emperor wanted. So it was the year of the beginning of the rule of the bishop of Rome over the Western church.

See Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

It just so happens that this power, which fulfills prophecy as the little horn power which came out of the Roman Empire, received what appeared at the time to be a deadly wound in 1798-- exactly 1, 260 years later.

The Bible also says this same power would regain its former position and influence, and we have seen that it's doing that, too.

Exactly!

[jasd]

>>You do have a way with words,<<

Thanks, I think... Should that be a good thing – it would be because I copy from others of the list.

>>...that you are honest with yourself,<<

Spent too many years of my life less than honest in all things – regrettably. As I quit smoking, drinking, lyin’-cheatin’-stealin’, and sundry other sad habits cold turkey – likewise, I strive to get past – what’s it called? oh, gobbledygook – cold turkey. For what it’s worth.

>>...you would be amazed at how hard that is for most people.<<

Couldn’t be harder than it’s been for me.

I’ve not responded to your proffer of specific dates (that is, 2012, 2016, etc) yet - for the reason that I’ve not yet been able to wrap that universe between my ears around it. :-(

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

To simply ignore the adjuration(s) of Gd that the book of Daniel be sealed is to borrow and infuse our arguments with discordance.

>>Right, sealed until when?

"But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase"(Daniel 12:4) The book is no longer sealed.<<

A coupla of things: First, you’ve placed your primary emphasis upon the noun phrase “time of the end”. The clauses following - qualify, or define, what you’ve emphasized; that is, they amplify its determination, or exposition. The emphasis ought to rather lie with “many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase”.

The dogmas being forwarded, for the most part, are simply repeats from a much earlier time when, per the increase of knowledge and men running to and fro, ‘all things continued as they have since the fathers’; whereas, expositing the book of Daniel was to be held in abeyance until such as our present time – Today – not five-hundred years ago, no, not even one-hundred and fifty years ago – Now.

Second, as pertains your statement, “The book is no longer sealed” – indeed, that is correct; so why do I recognize so much of what is proffered re the various beasts, as having been developed and advanced much before the ‘unsealing’? Given that, I believe the term

‘wrested’ might attach, yes?

I just noticed that you’re located in Oregon. Are you aware that Oregon figures, more or less, prominently in Writ? I’ll soon post my purport to that effect in my Loose Ends thread; you may find it somewhat interesting.

[jasd]

>>1. The 666 statement applies to the title for the pope so explicitly admitted in the Catholic document "The Donation of Constantine" -- purported to be a NON-Catholic document of emperor constantine in the 4th century - but now known to a CATHOLIC document from the 6th century. That document has been used in a number of courts over the centuries establishing Rome's claim to civil power.<<

The RCC also venerates the mother of our Saviour, yet the .Org rejects that practice. The RCC made holy and sanctified Sunday as Sabbath, yet the .Org rejects that also. Yet, those representing the .Org (and those of other .orgs, as well) select this and/or that as convenient to their argument – and reject this and/or that. Isn’t that called 'picking and choosing' – a rather less than complimentary dialogic position...

I’ve often encountered the objection on these boards, “Let scripture interpret scripture.” Okay, well, Writ directly correlates the number 666 to [G]old.

Not to nitpick..., however, Revelation 13:17 seems to make the correlation between 666 and “the number of his name” – rather than to “title”. Anyway, it is not unknown that the name

Ellen Gould White yields the Roman numeric value 666... what’s that say? Absolutely nothing.

>>2. The RCC is the only power that took over all of the former Roman empire with even greater influence -- lasting for 1260 years.<<

That must be a bank-shot from the date AD 538, yes? Umm, Uriah Smith puts the date for the earliest limiting point of that particular prophecy at AD 553. He is recognized as one of the ‘founding lights’, yes? So, with such variableness of views as exists within the believing community re the ‘at-that-time’ closed contents of the book of Daniel – one can hardly be doctrinaire about this or that ‘fact’, can one?

>>3. The RCC claims to have changed times and laws.<<

If the above is a reference to the Sabbath and the Decalogue, then indeed, they have effectually done so. However, Writ phrases the matter thusly, “Think to change times and laws” (Dan 7:25). I suspect that all can agree that the operative words are “Think to...”, rather than to actually or effectually – do so. Moreover,

it may be that the passage speaks to attempts to realize actual changes to literal times and physical laws, as is currently being attempted by science in practice...

>>4. The RCC was a horrifically persecuting power in terms of their war on the saints.<<

Indeed. However, unless Catholic Europe had census takers over the centuries under discussion – it is inarguable that Red Communism more “horrifically persecuted” their many more scores of millions – and in shorter time.

>>5. The demise of the RCC power and the rise of the lamb-like beast were in conjunction just as the text states.<<

You’ll have to make a case for that, rather than to assert...

>>6. And as the video points out in detail the symbols borrowed from paganism are rife in that church.<<

1 Cor 9:22 ...I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.

1 Cor 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake,

Sorry, I’m on dial-up and can neither view nor respond to whatever is purported as facts, relevant or otherwise, on the video; that said,

the RCCs may or may not be as one wishes; however, the arguments should bear...

[Guest]

Even though the whole world may go along with the change of the Sabbath, it dosn't actually change God's law. So in that respect they only think they changed times and laws.

[skyblue888]

Right on Richard.

[Musicman1228]

If you are trying to find the truth about an historic event it is best to go to the source for the information. In this case my source is newadvent.org which is the Catholic church web site. I have included the link to the encyclopedia so you can confirm what I am outlining here. There is a lot of material to wade through but the truth is worth it.

As opposed to what we have been taught by the Adventist church and many on this forum there was a Pope actually in Rome prior to 537 C.E. and under the protection of the Ostrogoth ruler Theodoric who was actually friendly with the Pope, Silverius (having influenced his election to the Papacy), and was neutral to the Catholic church and it’s dogma. This relationship was stabilizing politically for both the Pope and Theodoric.

There was a lot of intrigue involving the Empress Theodora in Constantinople, money, influence peddling, murder and a future Pope named Vigilius who came to Rome in 536 from Constantinople with letters from the Empress recommending him as Pope. Suffice it to say that when the dust settled after Belisarius garrisoned Rome in 537 (not 538) Vigilius was now Pope, having deposed poor Silverius with the help of Belisarius. Interestingly enough Silverius was then placed into captivity by the new Pope (not the general) where he died a short time later. In 539 Belisarius sacked the palace of Theodoric in Ravenna which ended the Ostrigoth rule.

Rather than the Pope entering Rome after Belisarius (Roman Emperor Justinian’s general) drove out the Orstrigoths (as we have been taught) there was already a Pope in residence in Rome when Belisarius showed up in Italy in 535 C.E., and later in 537 when he entered Rome. Also note that it was not the general but the new usurper Pope that placed the unjustly deposed Pope Silverius into captivity.

This information eliminates 538 C.E. as a significant year in association with the prophecy of Rev.13, and also then calls into question the understanding of our early Advent brethren in saying that anything important in prophecy happened in 1798.

Catholic Encyclopedia

[Guest]

MM what is C.E. ?

[teresaq]

...

As opposed to what we have been taught by the Adventist church and many on this forum there was a Pope actually in Rome prior to 537 C.E. ...

the issue is not whether there were popes or not. that is common knowledge for those who study history and the catholic site does not have a moratorium on that.

the issue is when power was handed to the pope from the civil authorities.

i am quite sure your site does not deny this fact, right?

But the imperial acceptance of the Roman pontiff's assertions of primacy—already largely conceded in the West—had denied the claims of all rivals, and given him official status Now Vigilius, owing his pontificate to imperial influence, and bolstered by this new legal recognition of the pope's ecclesiastical supremacy, marked the beginning of a long climb toward political power which culminated in the reigns of such popes as Gregory VII, Innocent III, and Boniface VIII. The temporary nature of Justinian's union of East and West, and the subsequent decrease in the concern of the Byzantine emperors with Western church affairs, only left the pope with a freer hand to develop that power. The change in the character of the Papacy from Vigilius on, and the final result of that change, have been well described: "From this time on the popes, more and more involved in worldly events, no longer belong solely to the church; they are men of the state, and then rulers of the state." 60 {1950 LEF, PFF1 516.1}

This transaction engendered new energy in Rome As the Papacy began to assume more of a political character, and entered the path which led on toward temporal dominion the voice of the Roman bishop took on a new authority throughout all Christendom. The growth of that irresistible tyranny before which Europe would often bow during the subsequent thousand years, was now begun. By enshrining in the imperial law the

long-claimed primacy of the pope, Justinian placed the cornerstone of that towering ecclesiastical structure that was to cast its shadow through succeeding centuries over the whole of Europe, and that was to intercept the guiding light of the Scriptures by its elaborate ceremonies in all their ancient heathen splendor—its ecclesiastical calendar crowded with thinly concealed pagan festivals, its pilgrimages, saint worship, and adoration of the virgin and by its insistence on obedience to Rome, as the supreme duties of life. {1950 LEF, PFF1 516.2}