The Beast of Revelation 13

[jasd]

>>How do we know that a jesuit is not stirring confusion on this board? I know this has come up here in the past. Still, it needs to be brought up again.<<

Oy ya! yumpin' yiminy cricket! we may even have an agitprop from govt postin' tah this here thread...

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Skyblue888

But then, we have a problem because we have one that is, and in John's day, that one was Pagan Rome and the other one which had not yet come was Papal Rome. But what about the beast of Revelation 11, Atheistic France, and the lamb-like beast of Rev.13, Apostate Protestantism? So if we take John's day as the point of reference, we have to say, 5 have fallen, one is, and THREE are yet to come! But does the Bible say that? It doesn't.

But if we take the point of reference given us directly from verse 3 of chapter 17, which is the time after 1798, we now ask the question: which are the five which have fallen? It is, very obviously:

1.Babylon

2.Medo-Persia

3.Greece

4.Pagan Rome

5.Papal Rome

Interesting. There are other ways of interpreting that text. So it is one of those things where I will just say. I do not know!

Another interpretation was that in 1929 the Lateran Treaty gave Rome back to the RCC. Rome was now its own country. Since 1929 there have been 7 Popes. Benedict being the 7th pope or king of this very small country.

Looks a bit like this:

I cannot say for sure if that is true or not because I truly do not know.

In this interpretation, how do you determine the point of reference for the five that have fallen? What will happen to this interpretation if the present pope died tomorrow and was replaced by another pope other than John Paul II?

Many people believe that in 1929 the "wound" was healed but that is not true because in order for the near "deadly wound" to be healed the papacy has to regain her temporal power and that would mean that she again would hold her supremacy over all the kings of the earth. For now that is far from being the case. On the contrary, ever since 1798 she has been under the restrain of secular powers.

sky

[wayfinder]

Never in the history of the RCC and popes have they ever received a fatal wound, through this very day.

The RCC and popes were convenient targets of protestant eschatology.

I am not a defender of the RCC, I am saying that there are many Christian religious organization with as much or more culpability as the Catholic organization.

[skyblue888]

1798 was not a fatal wound but a near deadly wound

"as if it had been mortally wounded" Rev.13:3.

It is a fact that in 1798 the papacy was stripped of her temporal power under Napoleon.

But this wound is to be healed before the close of probation and the papacy will regain her supremacy.

Who are you to claim that these things are not so?

sky

*from what denomination or religious group are you?

[wayfinder]

Re 13:3

one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed after the beast;

Strong's Number: 4969 Sphazo

1.to slay, slaughter, butcher

2.to put to death by violence

3.mortally wounded

Strong's Number: 2288 Thanatos

1.the death of the body

a.that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended

b.with the implied idea of future misery in hell

Strong's Number: 4127 Plege

a blow, stripe, a wound

Re 5:6

And I saw between * the throne (with the four living creatures ) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

Strong's Number: 4969 Sphazo

The same Greek word is used to discribe the Lamb that was slain. What God is saying to John is that the fatal wound is exacly that a wound that kills.

The horn with eyes and a mouth is the RCC and judgment is decided in favor of the holy ones and his (pope)dominion is taken away and completely destroyed forever. The states of the chruch (papal states) were taken away in 1869-70 when they were anexed by the Italian government.

Da 7:26

'But the court will sit and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

[Lutz13]

In this interpretation, how do you determine the point of reference for the five that have fallen? What will happen to this interpretation if the present pope died tomorrow and was replaced by another pope other than John Paul II?

[John317]

Re 13:3

one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed after the beast;

The language used shows one of the heads is not actually killed but that it "seemed to have had a fatal wound," or " as if it had been slain." In other words, it's saying that it only appeared to have a mortal wound. The power will return to its former position. I believe there can be no doubt that this is what we see happening to the papacy.

[Guest]

Either that or EGW was inspired by the devil, which is not the case. Can you imagine Satan inspiring Desire of Ages? Or Steps to Christ? Come on wayfinder, get real.

[Kountzer]

I've seen ELder Kenneth Cox preach on this several times. He does a good job, but I still have a time grasping it.

[Kountzer]

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[Guest]

David Asscherick does a good job too.

http://hopevideo.com/david_asscherick.htm

[Musicman1228]

So Richard, you will go with the interpretation of EGW with regard to the beast of Rev. 13:3 in spite of the fact that she disagrees with the exact meanings of the words in the text. These words were clearly defined by wayfinder and NOT taken out of context. I'm not complaining, I just find it interesting.

[Guest]

I find it interesting that you guys can believe she was inspired by Satan.

[Kevin H]

Type and anti type is on the right track and useful, but a more accurat understanding would be exogeses and analogy. Every Bible prophecy has a local fulfillmen, or situations that could have lead to possible fulfillment, but the principles cycle over history.

For example, the original setting of Daniel 9:14 was the last literal 2300 days of the Babylonian empire (the 3rd year of Behshazzar brings us to 2300 days from the end of Babylon), but in Daniel 9 it is reapplied to the 70 weeks of years prophecy and the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. The 2300 days have different meanings depending on if you are applying it to it's original setting of Daniel 8 or it's re-application in Daniel 9.

It's late at night and I have to go back to work in the morning so this will be brief, with probably misspellings and words avoided for fear of misspelling, but cover the highlights that we can fill in the details of:

From Daniel to John there were 4 major kingdomes; Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece and Rome. Rome had 10 emperors from one family, The last 3 were plucked up by the rise of the Flavanian family, a father and 2 sons. The father plucks up the 3 emperors of the previous ruling family, his son Titus destroys the temple to Yahweh and Jerusalem and his brother, Domitian, resurects the Neroidan persecution of Christians and sends John to Patmos, and places new emphesses on emperor worship.

The emperors expeced people to pass by and bow down to the image of the emperor. The Rabbies tell us that Jews asked if it was ok to adjust their sandels in front of the image. This question was even more urgent under the rule of Domitian as he takes the bowing beyond respect to the emporer to actual worship of the emporer. The original Revelation setting of the mark of the beast is the emperor worship that Domitian enforced, do you bow and worship the emporer really believing in what you are doing (the mark in the forehead) or are you simply adjusting your sandel as you pass by the image (the mark in you right hand). It looked like Daniel 7 was being fulfilled.

On the one hand John recognizes that this could well be the fulfillment od Daneil 7; but not for any aragent reason of something special about the Flavians. First Daniel 7 could have been fulfilled soon after Daniel's time; but even if the Flavians were to become the little horn of Daniel, it was not based on them but based on the church preaching again and returning to it's first love and the gospel spreading to the whole world. (The theam of Revelation is "Preach again"-- that if the church preaches it will be martered but the gospel will be spread to the Whole world, not just the Jewish world that Paul and the earlier apostels thought Jesus meant by spreading the gospel to the world, and the Lord will come). But in case the church does not preach again, John moves from the 4 major parts of Daneil 2 and the 4 parts of Daniel 7 into the 7 actual parts of Daniel 2 with Rome being only the 4th of 7 powers (taking away from Domitian the conseat that he was the one prophecied in Daniel)

As for 666: In the time of Revelation a lot of people saw it prestegious for their name to equal 666. To the Hebrews and their view of 7 they would see 666 as incomplete. Also, according to Jim Fleming, a Jewish Rabbi (not sure the name, Jim only calls him one of his coligues at Hebrew University where Jim also teaches) who is an expert on second century Judiasm, has come to see that the doctrin of the trinity was actually formed by Jewish Rabbies to talk about the 3 aspects of God from a Hebrew perspective to the Greek thinking world. So this would also be seen by Jews and Christians of a trinity of evil. In the old testament there is a character who's name equals 666: Nimrod, a hunter who set himself up before the Lord and founded Babylon. And in John's day there was another 666 (or 616 depending if you use his full name or not) Nero with his persecution of Christians.

666 is setting ourselves up before the Lord and the healing of the deadly wound of the Nerodian persecution.

As we study the consepts of the Antichrist in the past: Including the role of the pope and the entire Holy Roman empire; The role of Domitian and the Flavian family, Babylon, Abimelech (the book of Judges have a group of Saveours and an anti-judge, an anti-anointed, after showing what types of people that God can raise up and an idea of what a Judge should not be) we will learn principles that we will meet again.

In Hebrew the word for the future is the back side of God and pictures us as walking through life backwards, while God knows the past and the future, we are as if we are going though history backward, we see the past but not the future. Seeing what happened in the past will make us recognize the issues when they come. If we don't look at the role of Antichrist in the past, these types of what is coming, we will not be preparing for when the end arrives. But on the other hand, if we look at only one of these types and make that type the entire message, we are also not preparing for the antitype.

Too many of us either speculate about the future, or focus on only one piece of the puzzel of the past. Both will fail us. But if we study what did happen, what could have happened, we will recognize what is happening when it happesn. I hope you find thins useful

[Lutz13]

I find it interesting that you guys can believe she was inspired by Satan.

I wouldn't be surprised. They also claim Paul was inspired by Satan.

[Lutz13]

Also, did anyone watch that video with many Sunday denominations kissing the popes hand and what not?

[skyblue888]

The point of reference given in chapter 17 of Revelation is 1798,,, this is found in verse 3 where it says that John was taken in the Spirit into the wilderness where he saw the papacy wounded at the hand of Napoleon. The papacy then lost her temporal power over the kings of the earth. Then from that point on, "five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come." The five that had fallen by 1798 were Papal Rome, Pagan Rome, Greece, Medo Persia, Babylon. The one that inflicted a deadly wound to Papal Rome in 1798 was Atheistic France under Napoleon and the one that was yet to come after that was Apostate Protestantism when Church and State should impose Sunday worship. It is this that will prepare the way for the Papacy to regain her supremacy, and then her wound will be healed. All nations will follow the example of the United States in making an image to the Papacy by enforcing Sunday worship. This will become universal. Thus the whole world will worship the papacy and its image but the true people of God will not pay homage to this spurious sabbath and they will be persecuted for keeping the seventh-day of the week as the true Sabbath of the Lord and a buy-and-sell decree will be brought against them and finally the death decree but they will not bow down to the decrees of apostate religion and then probation will close.

sky

[Twilight]

The point of reference given in chapter 17 of Revelation is 1798,,, this is found in verse 3 where it says that John was taken in the Spirit into the wilderness where he saw the papacy wounded. Then from that point on, 5 had fallen, one is, and one is yet to come. The five that had fallen were Papal Rome, Pagan Rome, Greece, Medo Persia, Babylon. The one that inflicted a deadly wound to Papal Rome in 1798 was Atheistic France and the one that is yet to come is Apostate Protestantism which when Church and State shall enact the Sunday Law and which will prepare the way for the Papacy to regain her supremacy, that is for her wound to be healed. And then all nations will follow the example of the United States in making an image to the Papacy by enforcing Sunday worship. Thus the whole world will worship the papacy and its image but the true people of God will not pay homage and they will be persecuted and a buy-and-sell decree will be brought against them and finally the death decree and then probation will close.

sky

It is interesting that atheism was used to slay the Papacy.

It seems so entrenched now (atheism), that it seems difficult to imagine it coming under the subjugation of religious thought again...

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The point of reference given in chapter 17 of Revelation is 1798,,, this is found in verse 3 where it says that John was taken in the Spirit into the wilderness where he saw the papacy wounded. Then from that point on, 5 had fallen, one is, and one is yet to come. The five that had fallen were Papal Rome, Pagan Rome, Greece, Medo Persia, Babylon. The one that inflicted a deadly wound to Papal Rome in 1798 was Atheistic France and the one that is yet to come is Apostate Protestantism which when Church and State shall enact the Sunday Law and which will prepare the way for the Papacy to regain her supremacy, that is for her wound to be healed. And then all nations will follow the example of the United States in making an image to the Papacy by enforcing Sunday worship. Thus the whole world will worship the papacy and its image but the true people of God will not pay homage and they will be persecuted and a buy-and-sell decree will be brought against them and finally the death decree and then probation will close.

sky

It is interesting that atheism was used to slay the Papacy.

It seems so entrenched now (atheism), that it seems difficult to imagine it coming under the subjugation of religious thought again...

Exactly Mark! Well said!

[Lutz13]

The point of reference given in chapter 17 of Revelation is 1798,,, this is found in verse 3 where it says that John was taken in the Spirit into the wilderness where he saw the papacy wounded at the hand of Napoleon. The papacy then lost her temporal power over the kings of the earth. Then from that point on, "five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come." The five that had fallen by 1798 were Papal Rome, Pagan Rome, Greece, Medo Persia, Babylon. The one that inflicted a deadly wound to Papal Rome in 1798 was Atheistic France under Napoleon and the one that was yet to come after that was Apostate Protestantism when Church and State should impose Sunday worship. It is this that will prepare the way for the Papacy to regain her supremacy, and then her wound will be healed. All nations will follow the example of the United States in making an image to the Papacy by enforcing Sunday worship. This will become universal. Thus the whole world will worship the papacy and its image but the true people of God will not pay homage to this spurious sabbath and they will be persecuted for keeping the seventh-day of the week as the true Sabbath of the Lord and a buy-and-sell decree will be brought against them and finally the death decree but they will not bow down to the decrees of apostate religion and then probation will close.

sky

Makes a lot of sense Sky. It will be interesting to see how things play out.

[skyblue888]

Yes it will be!

[Guest]

Also, did anyone watch that video with many Sunday denominations kissing the popes hand and what not?

Yes I did.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I find it interesting that you guys can believe she was inspired by Satan.

I wouldn't be surprised. They also claim Paul was inspired by Satan.

And that's not all.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Also, did anyone watch that video with many Sunday denominations kissing the popes hand and what not?

Yes I did.

I did as well. :-)

[shadow]

EGW was not inspired by Satan. She was misled by him.

How does the antichrist deceive the whole world.

I wasn't as fortunate or maybe unfortunate as most of you because my mother changed denominations as often as she changed her hat. I can tell you this however, Anglicans, Baptist, Pentecostals etc. all believe that the antichrist will come from the RC, Pope or along those same lines. So how does this Being deceive everyone but the elect when he comes from the exact place where they expect him to come from.

Ahh, Satan has the whole world looking just where he wants them to look.

We need to keep our eyes on Jesus, not EGW, not Paul but on the son

of God. God gave his son a job to do. Did Jesus complete his testimony or did God have to send others to clean up after him. John 17

verse 4.