Victory - Iraqi Freedom

[Dr. Shane]

AILEEN McCABE

CanWest News Service

Monday, January 31, 2005

CREDIT: Associated Press

An Iraqi woman holds her child while voting at a polling station in the centre of Az Zubayr, southern Iraq, on Sunday.

CREDIT: AP

An Iraqi was shot in the face by an insurgent near a polling place in Mosul yesterday. He was taken to a hospital and is expected to survive.

It was historic, it was bloody and - amazingly - the Iraqi election yesterday was more successful than anyone dared hope.

Defiant Iraqis came out in unexpected numbers to vote for their first democratic assembly in half a century. And, in the process, they gave U.S. President George W. Bush the first foreign-policy victory of his second term.

More important, the turnout gave some credence to Bush's claim that if you draw a line from Afghanistan to the Palestinian territories, through Ukraine and into Iraq, a clear new picture emerges. "Freedom is on the march and the world is better for it," he said Friday as he watched his new secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, sworn in.

And when Rice hit the U.S. talk-show circuit yesterday morning, she picked up on Bush's theme.

"What we are seeing here is the emergence of an Iraqi voice of freedom," she said.

Voter numbers in themselves cannot be the only indicator of a successful Iraqi election, however. How those numbers break down along ethnic and religious lines is also crucial

[Dr. Shane]

World Leaders Praise Iraqi Vote

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The presidents of France and Russia, top opponents of U.S. policy in Iraq, joined world leaders Monday in praising this weekend's landmark Iraqi elections as a success of democracy over terrorism, but the welcome was tempered by concern that Sunni Arabs be included in a future government.

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Looks like world opinion is changing.

[Dr. Shane]

France, Germany, Russia hail Iraq poll success

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Both sides of Europe's divide over the Iraq war united Monday to praise the Iraqis who braved insurgent threats to vote, and the European Union's foreign policy chief said the step toward democracy would pay off in the provision of more aid.

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[Dr. Shane]

Bush says election "a resounding success"

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"By participating in free elections, the Iraqi people have firmly rejected the anti-democratic ideology of the terrorists. They have refused to be intimidated by thugs and assassins," the president said from the White House after the polls closed.

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[Dr. Shane]

Courage and euphoria as Iraq votes

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Only days before, the White House had been briefing that to hold elections in Iraq at all would be an achievement, reflecting fears that the turnout would be low.

London, Washington and the interim Iraqi government now feel vindicated by the massive turnout in Kurdish and Shia areas.

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[Bravus]

I don't want to engage in partisan sniping today of all days, I just want to cheer for the courage of the Iraqi people. Amazing and inspiring.

[Dr. Shane]

Of course democracy in Iraq may still fail but the large turnout, especially amid all the violence and threats of violence, is a very good sign that the Iraqi people want to be self-governing and should serve as a big moral boost to them.

[bevin]

Quote:

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London, Washington and the interim Iraqi government now feel vindicated by the massive turnout in Kurdish and Shia areas.

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Would it be "vindication" in the USA to have an election where all the Caucasians and Blacks voted, but none of the Hispanics did?

The elections themselves are an okay thing, but until an overwhelming portion of the majority of the population starts trying to stop the armed rebellion against the USA-backed regime, they still have a huge problem in Iraq.

It ain't a democracy until the election stops the fighting.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

There are large groups of people that don't vote in the US every election cycle. However they still have the right to vote.

It is hard to downplay the success of this election. It was very successful and showed just how much Iraqis want to be free. Denying that just shows your true colors.

[there buster]

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It ain't a democracy until the election stops the fighting.

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By that standard, the 1864 election wasn't "democratic." The South didn't vote at all, and kept fighting for months afterward.

Any number of places that are now considered successful democracies have had elections under threat of violence, sometimes for years. South Korea, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Northern Ireland.

Thugs always try to prevent ordinary people from having their say. What's sad is when thugs find ready apologists.

[bevin]

Quote:

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Thugs always try to prevent ordinary people from having their say. What's sad is when thugs find ready apologists.

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The issue in Iraq is NOT thugs, and it is not the success of the vote amongst two of the country's three major groups.

The issue is

• A very large minority group is not committed to the result
• These people is deliberately providing a safe haven to the much smaller group of actual fighters

The reason that they are doing this is simple - the large minority group has not bought into the concept of "we will live by the rules created by these elected representatives".

The reason that they have not bought into it is also obvious, is that they fear those rules will do them major harm.

Democracy's success depends on the minorities trusting that the elected officials will PROTECT, NOT TRAMPLE ON, MINORITIES.

The Bush administration is running into the same problem here in the USA. Bush and Bushites believes that, since they are the ruling power, they are allowed to pass laws that seriously constrain the behaviour of huge portions of the society.

This behaviour causes those groups to fight back. Here, in the USA, it is still a battle of words and lawyers.

In Iraq, where the perceived threat is much higher, and the history of physical oppression much more recent, the minority groups are already using violence.

It is important that a government be trusted. That is why it is important that a government must not lie. That is why the continuous stream of lies and deceit from the Bush administration causes such concern.

/Bevin

[Neil D]

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Any number of places that are now considered successful democracies have had elections under threat of violence, sometimes for years. South Korea,

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I don't know about the other places, but I have lived in South Korea....What you were trying to say regarding it, is somewhat an inaccurate statement. South Korea, while claiming to be a democracy and holding elections, still retains some vestages of a dictatorship, and not in accord with the will of the people...In fact, the elected President, in many respects, acts like a thug type in control of a democracy, with body guards and controling the military. US presence there keeps North Korea out and can regien [sp]in the current goverment.

[bevin]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=19&u=/ap/20050201/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_mideast

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Some commentators believe a Shiite-influenced Iraq may forge a strategic alliance with Shiite-controlled Iran, a worrying prospect for the Gulf region's predominantly Sunni-controlled regimes, who are opposed to Shiite minorities in their own countries seeking a greater say.

Egypt's pro-government Al-Ahram newspaper said Sunni-led regional powers, like Saudi Arabia and Jordan, "deeply disagree with the potential results of the (Iraqi) elections, which will escalate existing fears (concerning increased regional Shiite influence)."

Iraqi Shiite leaders insist they do not seek a government based on neighboring Iran's religious establishment, while Iran has tried to cool concerns of a Shiite power grab.

"We are ready to cooperate with future government of Iraq, regardless of its tendency," Iranian government spokesman Abdollah Ramezanzadeh said Monday.

Shiite-Sunni tensions are problematic for several Gulf regional countries.

Shiites are a minority in Sunni-dominated Saudi Arabia, except for the Eastern Province, which has a slight Shiite majority and much of the kingdom's oil wealth. Shiites are generally shunned in Saudi by conservative clerics as renegades.

In Sunni-majority Kuwait, sectarianism has not been a divisive issue, but tensions occasionally flare.

Saudi and Kuwaiti newspapers, however, paid little attention to the low Sunni Muslim voter participation or Shiite rise in power, instead lauding the defiance of Iraqis and the risk they took to vote.

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/Bevin

[Neil D]

Let the culture wars begin.......

Question:

Will the civil war happen BEFORE the US pull it's troups out, or during or after? Will the Sunni's control the oil or will one culture dominate the other?

Stay tuned to Bushes legacy!

[Dr. Shane]

What is sad is that Bush-haters would love nothing better than to see civil war in Iraq and terrorists to take control. Sad that they cherish hatred so much that they hope for thousands to die and be oppressed again.

We need to pray for these Bush-haters that Jesus will touch their hearts and put His love for George Bush in them.

[Neil D]

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What is sad is that Bush-haters would love nothing better than to see civil war in Iraq and terrorists to take control.

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That's not true, Shane...What we are saying is that because Bush came in, and has no exit stratigy, because he didn't think it thru, there is virtually garenteed a civil war.

It has absolutely nothing to do with weather we hate Bush or not, but rather how much of a mess we are going to clean up after he leaves office....

[Bravus]

I'm not even slightly ambivalent about this - I want Iraq to be peaceful, free and safe. I can say that i think they'd be doing that largely in spite of Bush rather than because of him, but there's no way in the world I want them going through hell to score any sort of political point.

[Dr. Shane]

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I want Iraq to be peaceful, free and safe.

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I think most reasonable people do. I also think you shared our joy in seeing a large turnout for the recent election.

However if you read some news reports you can see from the way the future possibilities are discussed that there is a group of people that would love things to go bad so they could say, "I told you so". These same people were happy (yes happy) when we didn't find WMDs in Iraq.

[Dr. Shane]

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That's not true, Shane...What we are saying is...

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"we"? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Why do you use the word "we"? Are you admitting to being a Bush-hater?

[Neil D]

You don't read, do you? Let me repost what I have said-

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It has absolutely nothing to do with weather we hate Bush or not, but rather how much of a mess we are going to clean up after he leaves office....

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[there buster]

Just sad.

[aldona]

Just tagging on here...

A reply to an editorial in today's news paper.

(quote)

Premature triumphalism

When they defeated Saddam's military they claimed victory. "Mission accomplished," they said. Only things got worse.

Then when they captured Saddam they claimed victory again. The organised resistance would crumble, they said. Only things kept getting worse.

Then when they appointed an interim government they claimed victory again. It wasn't an occupation any longer, they said. Only things still kept getting worse.

Now there's been an election they've claimed victory again. Democracy has triumphed, they said.

But no, Anne Franklin (2/2), we "hand-wringers" and "carpers" haven't gone and hidden under a rock. It's just that the quiet nagging voice of reason has been drowned out, for a little while, by the once-again-premature triumphalist jingoism.

Gordon Drennan, Burton, SA

(end quote)

Brother Shane will probably call him a Bush-hater, though he does not mention Bush at all.

There are a lot of people of all political persuasions who feel this way.

aldona

[there buster]

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the continuous stream of lies and deceit from the Bush administration

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When I taught grade school, it was always rewarding to help 3rd graders understand the difference between intentional lying, saying what one believes to be true but which turns out to be mistaken, and honestly reporting what others have said--even though they may have been mistaken.

Sad to see so many regress so far.

Say it ain't so, Mary Jo.

[Bravus]

There's a third category, though - honestly repeating what you hear from Ahmed Chalabi because he says what you want to hear, and ignoring lots of other people, doesn't really quite fit either of those scenarios. Not lying exactly, but certainly wishful thinking...

[Dr. Shane]

When we said mission accomplished we were refering to defeating Saddam's army and freeing the Iraqi people from Saddam. That was done with historic speed. Never before has an invading had victory so quickly.

Many Bush-haters pretend to be concerned about how Bush has hurt the American image abroad. Now that the first Iraqi election has been an amazing success they refuse to recognize it. However some of America's greatest critics in France, Germany and Russia are indeed taking a second look at what America has done and expressing appreciation. It looks like Bush is on his way to winning world opinion and Bush-haters can't stand it and will never admit it.