How much of Scripture is inspired?

[Linc]

Hey ... any question that you might bring here will bring an onslaught of different thoughts and answers. But you would need a mountain of wisdom to figure out which one goes along with your image of God.

Thats my main question about this forum, and maybe you or somebody else here can help.

Is the theology corner of this forum frequented by people with some wisdom or I can prepare myself for the same "bla..bla..bla" of other forums?

I don't want to sound arrogant or pass the impression that I find myself smarter than other people but unfortunately my experience on other forums made me came to the conclusion that I wasted my time...big time.

[Woody]

Linc

It is $1 for the first month, that gives you a good opportunity to test things, it used to be free but we got a lot of -drive-by-shooters, and they usually do are not willing to contibute a dollar to blast their babble, if you know what I mean.

Thanks

Stan

Yes. Linc ... It won't break you and it is the best way to get to know us. Give us a try. If you try us you'll like us.

[SivartM]

Is the theology corner of this forum frequented by people with some wisdom or I can prepare myself for the same "bla..bla..bla" of other forums?

You can count on 90% blah blah and 10% wisdom.

The ratio is much better in most of the other forums, though. Except in the political forum I think it's 100% blah blah. :D

[Guest]

I think Siv just proved his own point.

You will have to decide who you listen to though. Every wind of doctrine is blowing right now in the SDA church.

Soon the battle will be waged fiercely between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. Soon everything that can be shaken will be shaken, that those things that cannot be shaken may remain.--Testimonies, vol. 9, pp. 15, 16. {ChS 56.3}

Satan hopes to involve the remnant people of God in the general ruin that is coming upon the earth. As the coming of Christ draws nigh, he will be more determined and decisive in his efforts to overthrow them. Men and women will arise professing to have some new light or some new revelation whose tendency is to unsettle faith in the old landmarks. Their doctrines will not bear the test of God's word, yet souls will be deceived. {CCh 344.4}

Everything that can be shaken will be shaken; but rooted and grounded in the truth, you will abide with those things that cannot be shaken. The law of God is steadfast, unalterable; for it is the expression of the character of Jehovah. Make up your mind that you will not by word or influence cast the least dishonor upon its authority. {MYP 30.1}

[SivartM]

I think Siv just proved his own point.

Precisely. I represent the 10%, and everyone who disagrees with me compose the 90%. :)

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I think Siv just proved his own point.

Precisely. I represent the 10%, and everyone who disagrees with me compose the 90%.

I am in 10% agreement with you on this SivartM

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

Hey Richard: Now you are using some quotes on inspiration that I can agree with for a change.

Kevin - It is difficult for me to believe Richard's interpretation is as you seem to believe. I have seen his posts reflect radical fundamentalism on the nature of inspiration. I was a fundamentalist when I registered for college classes, but one question from my professor cleared my misconceptions. He asked me if inspired Bible authors were God's pens or His penmen? I replied immediately that they were His penmen, and suddenly i realized the implications of that. The nature of inspiration became very clear to me then, and it is hard for me to understand why it is so difficult for others to understand. There is only one answer. The Lord is the author and finisher of our faith. It is not by our desires, that knowledge of truth comes to us, but by the will of the Lord. I praise the Lord for His loving kindness, in showing me so many of His precious gems of truth, and at the same time i do not blame others for lack of knowing. The Lord chooses some and not others, and there is no explanation as to who or why. But, no need for sorrow, for i believe eventually the Lord will allow everybody to see.

Oldsailor- Richard was quoting Mrs. White, and since she is the source for the view of inspiration that I understand and what was taught in college, so of course I can agree with THOSE quotes. While I dissagree with the view that Richard has been promoting here and what Elder Pipim teaches about inspiration, here Richard was quoting Mrs. White, so I was congratulating him for quoting from a better source.

[Woody]

Most ANY source would be better than Pipim. That much I agree with.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

...if you look up the source Mrs. White used you will find out that it was considered herisy and the pastor who originally preached those words lost his ministry over those sermons as people saw him as attacking the Bible. Even Mrs. White's quoting him sparked controversery in our church.

Could you please provide some documentation for this? For instance, what was the name of "the pastor" you refer to? Also, if you know it, can you give the source(s) where you got your information? Or maybe suggest titles of books where this info is likely to be found? Thanks.

I'm sorry but I do not remember his name. It was pointed out back in the 1970s in my college Spirit of Prophecy class, and at campmeeting about 4 or 5 years ago the current professor of Ellen White at the Seminary was making a presentation and I have burried someplace his handout where he picked a couple of paragraphs from the pastor and showed how Mrs. White used but modified what he wrote. (He tended to see inspiration as more of a subjective expirence of the prophets and she changed it to a very objective expirence)

[Guest]

Oldsailor- Richard was quoting Mrs. White, and since she is the source for the view of inspiration that I understand, of course I can agree with those quotes. While I dissagree with the view that Richard has been promoting here and what Elder Pipim teaches about inspiration, here Richard was quoting Mrs. White, so I was congratulating him for quoting from a better source.

Uh....thanks?

[Linc]

Fair enough !! I'm gonna give it a try....gonna fork one dollar LOL and lets see!!

I have to wait to my wife to get home so she can correct my post since

my english is not that good and I want to make sure that I'm expressing myself

correctly.

Look forward to some help from you guys. I'm sure that people here are more

spiritual and smart than me so it could be a blessing to belong to this community.

God bless !!!

[Woody]

Cool. Hey Linc ... bring it on. We are ready. And there are people here from many countries and some don't speak that gooda English. But we don't let that bother anything. We even allow Canadians to speak here.

[John317]

Fair enough !! I'm gonna give it a try....gonna fork one dollar LOL and lets see!!

I have to wait to my wife to get home so she can correct my post since

my english is not that good and I want to make sure that I'm expressing myself

correctly.

Look forward to some help from you guys. I'm sure that people here are more

spiritual and smart than me so it could be a blessing to belong to this community.

God bless !!!

If the above is an example of how you express yourself, I'd say you are doing GREAT!

Many for whom English is their primary language don't speak or write so well as you.

Keep coming back, please.

[Kevin H]

Fair enough !! I'm gonna give it a try....gonna fork one dollar LOL and lets see!!

I have to wait to my wife to get home so she can correct my post since

my english is not that good and I want to make sure that I'm expressing myself

correctly.

Look forward to some help from you guys. I'm sure that people here are more

spiritual and smart than me so it could be a blessing to belong to this community.

God bless !!!

Amen John and welcome Linc!

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Hey ... any question that you might bring here will bring an onslaught of different thoughts and answers. But you would need a mountain of wisdom to figure out which one goes along with your image of God.

Thats my main question about this forum, and maybe you or somebody else here can help.

Is the theology corner of this forum frequented by people with some wisdom or I can prepare myself for the same "bla..bla..bla" of other forums?

I don't want to sound arrogant or pass the impression that I find myself smarter than other people but unfortunately my experience on other forums made me came to the conclusion that I wasted my time...big time.

you asked, so i will give my opinion. lol

this is more than likely the same "bla..bla..bla" of other forums. it is mostly about proving ones "machismo", i guess you could call it. but it isnt as bad as some other forums.

[Woody]

Quote:

this is more than likely the same "bla..bla..bla" of other forums. it is mostly about proving ones "machismo", i guess you could call it. but it isnt as bad as some other forums.

That would be my assessment also.

[Guest]

4. Some Doubts about the Bible are Instigated by Satan.

"Men arise who think they find something to criticize in God's Word. They lay it bare before others as evidence of superior wisdom. These men are, many of them, smart men, learned men, they have eloquence and talent, the whole lifework [of whom] is to unsettle minds in regard to the inspiration of the Scriptures. They influence many to see as they do. And the same work is passed on from one to another, just as Satan designed it should be" (Selected Messages, 1:17).

"Man can be exalted only by laying hold of the merits of a crucified and risen Savior. The finest intellect, the most exalted position, will not secure heaven. Satan had the highest education that could be obtained. This education he received under the greatest of all teachers.

When men talk of higher criticism, when they pass their judgment upon the word of God, call their attention to the fact that they have forgotten who was the first and wisest critic. He has had thousands of years of practical experience. He it is who teaches the so-called higher critics of the world today. God will punish all those who, as higher critics, exalt themselves, and criticize God's Holy word" (Review and Herald, March 16, 1897).

[Guest]

Adopt the Right Presuppositions and Attitudes toward the Word

To rightly divide the Word, Seventh-day Adventist students of the Bible must adopt the right presuppositions and attitudes consistent with the nature of the Bible as God's holy, inspired and trustworthy Word. The following are some key assumptions and attitudes that

can aid the interpreter:

1. The Bible. The Bible is God's inspired Word.

The Holy Spirit inspired the human writers with thoughts, ideas, and objective information and guided them in communicating the message. Thus, in the written Word, just as in the Incarnate Word, Jesus Christ, there exists an indivisible union of human and divine elements, neither of which should be emphasized to the neglect of the other (2 Pet 1:21; cf. The Great Controversy, pp. v, vi).

Although written in an ancient Near Eastern/Mediterranean setting, the Bible transcends its cultural backgrounds. Since human nature is essentially the same, and since God's expectations of human beings do not change, irrespective of their culture and time, the Bible

speaks to all cultural, racial, and situational contexts of all ages. The message of Scripture, the written Word, is therefore no more culturally conditioned than is the message of Jesus Christ,

the Incarnate Word, who lived in the same culture and proclaimed God's eternal message to the entire human race.

Because the Bible is not culturally conditioned, the accounts in Scripture--including the Bible's history, science, miracles, chronologies, prophecies, etc.--must be trusted as authentic

and reliable.

[Guest]

2. The Human Interpreter.

Since human beings are finite and sinful, they cannot on their own arrive at a saving knowledge of truth without the Holy Spirit's guidance. Thus, while human reason is to be employed to the fullest, confidence in one's natural mental powers actually blocks spiritual understanding. Reason must never be king; it must always be the servant within the context and under the authority of God's Word.

As a sinner, every interpreter comes to Scripture with certain individual, cultural, and religious biases or prejudices (what scholars refer to as "preunderstandings"). These preconceived ideas or blind spots tend to obstruct the correct understanding of the Word. The way to surmount them is through the Spirit's twofold work of regeneration and sanctification, during which the mental powers of the believer are redirected and renewed day by day to conform to the true biblical worldview. Interpreters receive this divine help by approaching Scripture in humble dependence upon the Holy Spirit.

[Guest]

3. The Holy Spirit's Guidance.

The attitude of submission does not mean that the interpreter must abdicate the powers of reason or private judgment. Instead, submission ensures that these powers will be sanctified through the Spirit's work of illumination (John 14:26; 16:13, 14; 1 Cor 2:10-14; 1 John 2:27).

One way by which an interpreter expresses humility and submissiveness before God is by prayer. Bible students must pray before and after reading the written Word. Through prayer they are connected with the mind of the Holy Spirit, the real Author of inspired Scripture.

To benefit fully from the Spirit's illumination, the interpreter must be willing to submit to the teachings of Scripture. Psalm 119:34 is a model prayer that illustrates the correct attitude

for approaching the Scriptures: "Give me understanding, that I may keep thy law and observe it with my whole heart." Christians must not only distrust themselves and their thoughts, they must also be willing to obey whatever the Bible teaches them.

"Many a portion of Scripture which learned men pronounce a mystery, or pass over as unimportant, is full of comfort and instruction to him who has been taught in the school of Christ. One reason why many theologians have no clearer understanding of God's Word is, they close their eyes to truths which they do not wish to practice. An understanding of Bible truth depends not so much on the power of intellect brought to the search as on the singleness of purpose, the earnest longing after righteousness" (The Great Controversy, p. 599).

"Whenever men are not seeking, in word and deed, to be in harmony with God, then, however learned they may be, they are liable to err in their understanding of Scripture, and it is not safe to trust to their explanations. When we are truly seeking to do God's will, the Holy Spirit takes the precepts of His word and makes them the principles of the life, writing them on the tablets of the soul. And it is only those who are following the light already given that

can hope to receive the further illumination of the Spirit" (Testimonies for the Church, 5:705).

[Guest]

4. Other Considerations.

Following are some important considerations before one

actually starts to study the Scriptures.

(a) Select an appropriate Bible version. Where one cannot read the original languages in which the Bible was given, one must choose a Bible translation. Select a Bible version that is faithful to the meaning contained in Hebrew or Greek, giving preference to translations done by a broad group of scholars rather than by an individual, a small group, or a particular denomination.

Also, remember that there are two major approaches adopted by Bible translators. On one side are literal, "formal-equivalent" versions which attempt to offer word-for-word, clause-for-clause, sentence-for-sentence translation of the original language. The King James

Version and the New American Standard Bible (ASB) are examples of this approach. As far as possible, this approach preserves the original wording of the Bible, even though it may sometimes be difficult to understand or awkward to read.

On the other side are paraphrases and "dynamic equivalent" versions, such as the Living Bible and the Clear Word, which employ contemporary expressions to present the same kind of impact the Bible had on its original hearers. While this approach makes the Bible "come alive," it often loses many of the nuances of the original language, and it is much more likely to reflect the translator's biases. In using paraphrases, Bible students must be aware of their dangers. The preface of the Living Bible contains this important statement:

"There are dangers in paraphrases, as well as values. For whenever the author's exact words are not translated from the original languages, there is a possibility that the translator, however honest, may be giving the English reader something that the original writer did not mean to say. This is because a paraphrase is guided not only by the translator's skill in simplifying but also by the clarity of his understanding of what the author meant and by his

theology. For when the Greek or Hebrew is not clear, then the theology of the translator is his guide, along with his sense of logic, unless perchance the translation is allowed to stand

without any clear meaning at all. The theological lodestar in this book has been a rigid evangelical position."

The author of The Clear Word Bible made the same point in his preface: "This is not a new translation but a paraphrase of the Scriptures. It is not intended for in-depth study or for public reading in churches. Those who are better qualified have given readers of the Holy Scriptures excellent translations for such purposes and undoubtedly will continue to do so as additional manuscripts come to light."

Thus, the two approaches to Bible translations--word-for-word and paraphrases--have their strengths and weaknesses. Between the two extremes are versions which seek to enjoy the best of both worlds, such as the Revised Standard Version, which lies closer to the

word-for-word approach, and the New International Version, leaning toward the dynamic equivalence side.

With so many Bible versions in English, it is important to choose carefully the version in which to study the Bible. Two helpful guides to selecting English Bibles are the books So Many Versions and The English Bible from KJV to NIV.

Serious Bible students may want to adopt a suggestion that some have found useful: Use at least four Bible versions: (1) the King James Version, with its majestic language and hallowed associations; (2) a word-for-word version (e.g. the New American Standard Bible); (3) a

paraphrase (e.g., The Clear Word Bible or The Living Bible); and (4) one from the middle e.g., the Revised Standard Version or the New International Version). While concentrating on one version for reading and memorizing, it is best to compare the various versions

regularly. The best Bible version, however, is still the original Hebrew and Greek.

[oldsailor29]

The basic problem is the belief that scripture is inspired. Scriptures themselves were not inspired, but the writers of scriptures were inspired. "All scripture inspired" is referring to all scripture which was written by inspired people. There is a big difference, and if you check your interlinear Greek Bible, you should be able to see that the King James version is not a literal translation.

[pnattmbtc]

I have seen his posts reflect radical fundamentalism on the nature of inspiration. I was a fundamentalist when I registered for college classes, but one question from my professor cleared my misconceptions. He asked me if inspired Bible authors were God's pens or His penmen? I replied immediately that they were His penmen, and suddenly i realized the implications of that. The nature of inspiration became very clear to me then, and it is hard for me to understand why it is so difficult for others to understand.

Not just Richard, but quite a few here seem to have a rather fundamentalist view of Scripture. An interesting concept is how such a view of Scripture gets in the way of understanding truth.

[karl]

Let's toss the fundamentalist label and each say what we think those Bible penmen got wrong and what they got right.

That's the whole argument. The rest is just name-calling.

Should we believe what the whole Bible says or should we subscribe to German higher criticism? How about Darwinism? Liberal theology? Each of the winds of doctrine take a portion of the Bible and then decide that other, balancing parts are not inspired or not properly recorded. Actually, most of the time they are not even dealt with - just ignored.

[SivartM]

Should we believe what the whole Bible says

Which "the whole Bible says"? The Baptist "whole Bible says"? The Calvinist "whole Bible says"? The Shepherd's Rod "whole Bible says"? Any of the various Adventist "whole Bible says"?

Most people say the believe in what the "whole Bible says". Many of them can explain how every verse in the Bible fits their systematic theology.