How much of Scripture is inspired?

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Should we believe what the whole Bible says

Which "the whole Bible says"? The Baptist "whole Bible says"? The Calvinist "whole Bible says"? The Shepherd's Rod "whole Bible says"? Any of the various Adventist "whole Bible says"?

Most people say the believe in what the "whole Bible says". Many of them can explain how every verse in the Bible fits their systematic theology.

Well, then, obviously none of them are right, so you're all you've got left.

You'll have seek Him for yourself.

Me too.

I think that's what He wants.

[SivartM]

Good answer. Best answer I've seen.

[Twilight]

I have posted a sub thread for this discussion with some questions here:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...t/showflat.html

[Dr. Rich]

Problem is, IF you say that the whole bible IS the word of God or even the inspired word of God AND anything in it actually isn't, then you have just called God a liar. Serious stuff folks!

[SivartM]

Er, no, you just had an incorrect belief. Do you believe in salvation by doctrine?

[Dr. Rich]

SivartM wrote: "Er, no, you just had an incorrect belief. Do you believe in salvation by doctrine?"

If I have an incorrect belief, then please correct me--show me don't just tell me. Jesus said the truth will set one free from sin. Truth is what He brought to this world. He said that His words were the words of the Father and in them, if one will abide in those words, and in them alone, is what brings one to salvation. It is open for everyone, but not everyone will accept the task of doing the will of the Father.

Revelation 12:17 presents the truth regarding those who find salvation. They are the ones who keep the ten commandments (all of them) and the words (testimony) of Jesus (given to us by His eyewitnesses.)

It is everyone's choice-abide in the words of Jesus and live, or in the words of others like Luke, Paul or EGW or Muhammad or ANYONE other than Jesus Christ alone and die the second death.

[Musicman1228]

In the old west many towns had a rule that when coming into town you had to 'check your guns at the door', by giving them to the Sheriff while you were in town. Today many Christians have that same rule with respect to their brains (logic and reason) when they go to church. This is because faith is much more important to a Christian than is knowledge, understanding and wisdom.

Who was it that said we must 'check our brains at the door' when we go to church or Bible study? It certainly was not Jesus Christ, who said;

" . . . and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:32.

The operative word there is KNOW. This is not 'believe', 'wish', 'hope', or 'have faith'. To KNOW something requires hard work, patience, perseverance, logic, reason, and dedication in finding the truth. Most Christians today (and many on this forum) would rather believe what they already know because it is convenient and safe rather than put their current paradigms to the test, thereby risking the need to change. This would require very hard work and (according to them) why go through all that when salvation is merely matter of accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior. It is this attitude that demonstrates the 'wide way' of thinking. It is the other that demonstrates the 'narrow way' that Jesus spoke of as the only way to the Kingdom of Heaven.

It is my understanding that whichever way is easiest is the way to destruction, and whichever way is the most difficult is the way to eternal life. To me this means that if the majority believes that Paul's theology is the way to salvation and the minority believes that Jesus Christ is the Way then I must go with what Jesus Christ taught (through His eyewitnesses). If I am wrong in this thinking I would certainly appreciate someone pointing out 'WHY'.

[John317]

...if you check your interlinear Greek Bible, you should be able to see that the King James version is not a literal translation.

The KJV is pretty close to a literal translation. It is far more literal than the NIV. Where possible, the KJV translators attempted to translate one Greek word for an English word. However, they didn't attempt to consistently translate one Greek word by the same English word from beginning to end.

If anyone wants a translation that does this, they might want to get the Concordant Literal New Testment along with the Concordant Greek Text which is an ultraliteral English translation in the sublinear. It consists of a Greek text restored from uncial manuscripts (Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, Alexandrinus) and their ancient editors with the variant readings in the superlinear.

There are no translations that are totally literal. It would be impossible for most people to read and understand. The two that are closest to being literal translations are Robert Young's Literal Translation and Rotherham's Emphasized.

Young's Literal is based on the Traditional NT text, whereas Rotherham's is based on the Wescott and Hort Greek text.

[SivartM]

Today many Christians have that same rule with respect to their brains (logic and reason) when they go to church. This is because faith is much more important to a Christian than is knowledge, understanding and wisdom.

[Dr. Rich]

Come on man, if you don't understand it is because you don't want to. Paul said IF anyone -even an angel from Heaven-preaches another gospel other than what he preached, let them be cursed (damned). Well, Hmmmm?? So tell me, should the Angel that Jesus sent to John be cursed or damned?

Paul said his gospel was of the good news about Jesus. Jesus' gospel was the good news about the Kingdom of Heaven. So, which is the gospel to be given to the world before the end comes? Is is the good news about Jesus given to us by Paul, or about the Kingdom of Heaven and how one can get into it, given to us by Jesus? Go fish!???

[SivartM]

Come on man, if you don't understand it is because you don't want to.

I could just as easily say that you don't understand me because you don't want to.

I really don't want to argue about this. You are just going to repeat the same "arguments" you've told everyone on this forum for ages... we must only read the words of Jesus, et cetera, et cetera.

[Musicman1228]

I did not call out anyone by name, nor did I cast aspersions concerning any one individual in my previous comments. I apologize if my comments were construed in any negative manner. My only interest is expressing that I am not going to leave one stone unturned in my own search for truth, even if this means occasionally lightly treading on another persons paradigms (toes, if you will). This forum is useful to me in this regard because I know that here I will find both of the kinds of people I described in my previous post; those that are hungry for truth and 'damn the torpedoes, sail straight ahead', and those that are only interested in maintaining the status quo regardless of the evidence.

Both of these types of personalities (and those in between) challenge my thinking on a variety of topics so that I can better know myself and my own beliefs better. I do appreciate the challenge and try not to take either the negatives or positives too personally.

[SivartM]

You're looking for the truth? Kind of ironic... he's right up there.

And sorry if I sounded rude.

[Guest]

if one will abide in those words, and in them alone,..... Revelation 12:17 presents the truth regarding those who find salvation. They are the ones who keep the ten commandments (all of them) and the words (testimony) of Jesus (given to us by His eyewitnesses.)

I've looked Rich, and I can't seem to find it in the Bible where it says "His words alone" or that they have to be "eyewitnesses". Come to think of it, the only place I've ever seen that written, is in your posts.

Could it be that you are the one preaching a different gospel? Because you are putting words in Jesus' mouth that he never said.

[Guest]

The operative word there is KNOW. This is not 'believe', 'wish', 'hope', or 'have faith'.

That's where you're wrong MM. The operative word that Jesus used more than any other, was "believe", which is synonymous with faith. Over and over again He tells people to "believe" in something that they cannot see, touch, feel, or PROVE. In other words, He calls for his followers to have to have faith, more than any other one thing that he asks of them.

MM, unless you can prove that Jesus is the Son of God, and that He is the creator of all things, then your whole belief system is based on faith. Which is not a bad thing. That's exactly what is called for. But you need to stop telling people that they don't need it. You are fighting against the Kingdom of Heaven when you do this.

I think we can agree that faith is believing in something you can't see, feel, touch, or prove. Right? Let me show you just a few of the many times that Jesus calls on his followers to have faith:

Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes.

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, whatever things you desire, when you pray, believe that you will receive them, and you shall have them.

Luk 8:12 Those by the wayside are they that hear; then comes the devil, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mar 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he said unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except you see signs and wonders, you will not believe.

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Joh 11:40 Jesus said unto her, Said I not unto you, that, if you would believe, you should see the glory of God?

Matt 11:22 And Jesus answering said unto them, Have faith in God.

Do you still believe that Jesus never said anything about needing faith?

In every one of these texts, Jesus is telling his people to believe in something that they can neither see, touch, or prove. (The very definition of faith.) And even more so with us because we have never seen him.

This is but a small portion of the many times Jesus is calling for his followers to have faith. Like I said earlier, this is the one thing that He calls for more than anything else. And you claim to be one of the wise ones spoken of in the book of Daniel, yet you couldn't see this basic truth that has been right in front of your eyes the whole time.

The word in most of these texts that is tranlated "believe" is the word "pisteuo". Strongs #G4100

pisteuo

pist-yoo'-o

From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit

[pnattmbtc]

Come on man, if you don't understand it is because you don't want to. Paul said IF anyone -even an angel from Heaven-preaches another gospel other than what he preached, let them be cursed (damned). Well, Hmmmm?? So tell me, should the Angel that Jesus sent to John be cursed or damned?

Paul said his gospel was of the good news about Jesus. Jesus' gospel was the good news about the Kingdom of Heaven. So, which is the gospel to be given to the world before the end comes? Is is the good news about Jesus given to us by Paul, or about the Kingdom of Heaven and how one can get into it, given to us by Jesus? Go fish!???

It's the same Gospel. Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven was near to those with whom He came in contact because He was bringing it. Kingdom of heaven = Jesus Christ. Same truth, same gospel.

[Guest]

Amen

[pnattmbtc]

There are very, very few people who believe that Jesus was a turtle. Perhaps you should join that group.

Cool.

[Musicman1228]

Believe in what? It is your belief that one must believe in the person of Jesus Christ to be saved. Jesus said that we must believe in His words (the truth) in order to be saved. For most Christians the words 'faith' and 'trust' are synonymous, but are they? Did Jesus Christ the Son of God have 'faith' in His Father? No, I don't think so. Jesus KNEW His Father, and had complete trust in Him. If that is your definition of 'faith' then I'm all for it. But if your definition of 'faith' is believing in something or someone that you cannot see or completely understand then that is where I must respectfully disagree. Jesus had no need for that kind of faith.

Jesus even implied in the story of the mustard seed that the less faith and more trust in your Father in Heaven you have the more you can do for the Kingdom of Heaven. It is my impression that if you have faith only the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains. Any more than that causes problems. In other words; the less faith the better.

Will we need faith in Heaven? Are we not to be in the world and not of the world? If we are actually in the Kingdom of Heaven then we are NOT in the world, and as such we do not need faith, because our faith has turned to complete trust in Jesus Christ and our Father.

I find it very revealing that Paul asks us to develop more and more faith; which I take to mean develop more and more disbelief in the words of Jesus Christ and more faith in his 'different' gospel. Frankly, I want to get to the place in my life when I have completely eliminated the need for faith in God, because at that point I will be sealed in the truth and in righteousness and will no longer need the faith with which I started my Christian journey. To put is as simply as I can; children need faith, adults have trust. We all start as a child, but eventually we need to put away childish things.

[Guest]

Unless you can prove that Jesus is the son of God, and/or that He created the world, then everything you believe about God and the scriptures, is based on FAITH.

Jesus told people to believe on him for salvation more than anything else, and yet you poo poo the idea. How could you have read my last post, and still say that Jesus doesn't require faith. You must have just narely glanced at it.

The old testament even says the just shall live by faith. Habakkuk 2:4 and yet you don't believe that either.

About the adult thing, you may want to pay more attention to what Jesus actually said, instead of what you want him to say, or try to make Him say to uphold your twisted paradigm.

Mat 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

Quote:

Believe in what? It is your belief that one must believe in the person of Jesus Christ to be saved. Jesus said that we must believe in His words (the truth) in order to be saved.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It's hard to beleive that such a Jesus follower as yourself, can look at all the texts where he says believe, and still not have a clue as to WHAT he is talking about.

I'll tell you like I told Rich on another thread:

Read the new testament and pray for guidence from the Holy Spirit this time, and you will see WHAT Jesus is calling on you to believe. That He is the Son of God, and that He came to deliver us FROM sin, (not in sin). And yes, keeping the commandments is part of that, but He will give you the power to do it, because you can't do it on your own. The difference between the old and new covenant, is that one depends on man's power, and the other one depends on God's power.

When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Matt 19:25,26

So even after all the times Jesus told his followers to believe, you still don't see the significance in it. Do you believe He said it all those many times for no reason? Or just to be saying it?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

When you ask: Believe in WHAT? You are questioning Jesus, not me.

I have faith in the Word of God. I can't prove any of that stuff really happened, because I wasn't there. And neither were you. We both believe it because we believe there is a God in heaven, who has told us the truth through his Word. We take it on faith, because neither one of us can prove that there is a God. So quit telling people you don't have any faith.

BTW the stuff that you tell people is going to happen in 2016. Is not going to happen. Just so you can say you heard it here first. I know you have faith that it will, but it's not going to happen that way. In fact, time may not even last that long.

[John317]

Believe in what? It is your belief that one must believe in the person of Jesus Christ to be saved. Jesus said that we must believe in His words (the truth) in order to be saved.

I'm not altogether clear on what you mean here but you appear to be denying that it's essential to believe that Christ was/is the Messiah, the anointed One sent to this earth to live and die for us. We are certainly to believe in the person of Jesus Christ. He Himself said, "If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8: 24). He said the same thing in many ways thoughout the Gospels.

To truly believe on Him as the Son of God means to believe His words. In fact, it means to eat His words and make them a part of our very lives. That's what He meant when He spoke of eating His flesh and drinking His blood.

Quote:

For most Christians the words 'faith' and 'trust' are synonymous, but are they?

Yes, they are really synonymous, as a close study of the Bible and the way it uses the words translated as "faith" will show. It's true that people today often use them differently, but from the perspective of the Bible, they are interchangeable. Any standard Greek-English Lexicon defines "pistis" as "faith, trust, belief, confidence." "Pistos" is translated as "faithful," "believed," "believing," "faithfully," "believers," etc. "Pistuo" may be translated as "believe" or "have faith," etc. For instance, when Jesus said, "Be not afraid, only believe," He was telling us, "Only have faith," "only trust firmly in God." "Have faith in God." Compare Mark 11: 22 and Mark 5: 36. These verses are really saying the same thing.

Quote:

Did Jesus Christ the Son of God have 'faith' in His Father? No, I don't think so. Jesus KNEW His Father, and had complete trust in Him. If that is your definition of 'faith' then I'm all for it.

That's the NT way of using the word. Faith is having complete trust and confidence and reliance and belief in God and in Christ. It's all those things. One can't have "faith" without also obeying and doing what God commands. The saving "faith" the Bible speaks of is not just an intellectual belief like 1+2=3, nor is it merely an acceptance of the fact that the historical Jesus lived in Palestine about 2000 years ago.

Jesus lived every moment by faith in His Father. Jesus only knew anything on the basis of what His Father revealed to Him. He didn't depend on His human powers and abilities. He trusted God in the same way that we must trust Him. Jesus knew the prophecies about His destiny, but from day to day, Jesus trusted God to lead Him to do His will.

Quote:

But if your definition of 'faith' is believing in something or someone that you cannot see or completely understand then that is where I must respectfully disagree. Jesus had no need for that kind of faith.

I think you'd agree that we are called to trust, or have faith in, someone we've never seen before. I've never actually seen Christ with my physical eyes but only with the eye of faith. We only understand Him as we study and believe (have faith, trust) in the Scriptures which testify, or witness, to Him.

I agree with you Jesus wants us to have a living, saving faith in Him, and not merely a faith consisting of claims.

Quote:

I find it very revealing that Paul asks us to develop more and more faith; which I take to mean develop more and more disbelief in the words of Jesus Christ and more faith in his 'different' gospel.

Paul was talking about true faith in Christ and in the gospel as opposed to trusting one's works of the law. The different gospel that Paul warns his readers of is the false gospel that was being taught by "the circumcision," who taught that people needed to be circumcised and become a Jew before they could be saved.

Quote:

Frankly, I want to get to the place in my life when I have completely eliminated the need for faith in God, because at that point I will be sealed in the truth and in righteousness and will no longer need the faith with which I started my Christian journey. To put is as simply as I can; children need faith, adults have trust. We all start as a child, but eventually we need to put away childish things.

Nowhere does the Bible make this distinction, though. In fact, Jesus said those who would enter the kingdom must become as a little child. I believe that the more mature we become as believers, the more faith, or trust, we have in God, not less.

It's true that the faith, or trust, of a mature believer is stronger and firmer than the faith he started out with, but it is still faith. It is still the empty hand that reaches up and receives the sure promises, and unmerited favor, of God. And it's by daily practicing this kind of firm reliance on God now that helps us grow spiritually in order that we'll be so sealed in the truth that we can't be moved.

Maybe we're in basic agreement but we're using a different vocabulary to express our ideas.

[Musicman1228]

John317 said, "I think you'd agree that we are called to trust, or have faith in, someone we've never seen before. I've never actually seen Christ with my physical eyes but only with the eye of faith. We only understand Him as we study and believe (have faith, trust) in the Scriptures which testify, or witness, to Him."

I have seen Jesus Christ and so have you, John; through the eyewitness testimony of the Disciples of Jesus Christ. Jesus even said that we would believe in Him through their testimony. This is important and you said it correctly in your own way; it is impossible to believe in Jesus Christ from the testimony of someone who is like us, that is, someone who has not seen Jesus Christ with their own physical eyes. We must rely on the eyewitnesses and their accounts of the life of Jesus Christ and who He is for our knowledge and understanding of who He is and what He taught.

Yes, John, I believe we are in basic agreement on this issue. You said it well, and I will amplify on that theme: you said that we mature as believers as we know Jesus more. As we mature we need the blanket of faith less and less as we learn to walk on the solid foundation of trust in Jesus Christ and His words.

[pnattmbtc]

We know Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit, who uses the Scriptures (among other things) to speak to us. If it weren't for the work of the Holy Spirit, it wouldn't have been possible for those who lived before Christ came in the flesh to have believed in Him.

[karl]

We know Christ through the work of the Holy Spirit, who uses the Scriptures (among other things) to speak to us. If it weren't for the work of the Holy Spirit, it wouldn't have been possible for those who lived before Christ came in the flesh to have believed in Him.

Nor us.

What do you think about Christ's statement that it was expedient for Him to go away so that the Spirit would come? I've heard it said that if we had Christ in Person, we wouldn't want the Holy Spirit, but that just doesn't really explain it for me. Why could we not want and appreciate both?

Most of the things of God are solid, but this explanation is a little squishy for me.

Dya think they can't occupy the same space or something?

[Musicman1228]

Jesus and the Holy Spirit can, do and did exist in the same space/time continuum. When Jesus 'breathed' the Holy Spirit onto the Disciples in the upper room He had not yet ascended to His father for the 2nd and final time (the 1st time was right after His resurrection). He and the Holy Spirit were in the same room at the same time. The Holy Spirit was always where Jesus is/was/will be.

The reason that Jesus told His Disciples that if He did not go the Holy Spirit could not come is simply stating a fact; Jesus had told them He was going away, He also knew they still had a lot to learn about truth, so without Him in their presence they would need the Holy Spirit to complete their training. The Holy Spirit is an extension of God and Jesus Christ that connects those who are in the Kingdom of Heaven but still dwell on earth (in the world but not of the world) to their source for Truth who now lives in Heaven.

Here is a critical point: The Holy Spirit was IN Jesus while He was here on earth because He had NO sin in Him. No form of God can live within a human being and connect spirit to Spirit if sin lives in that human being. At the time Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit out to the Disciples they still had sin in them. Jesus told them to "receive the Holy Spirit". The implication that we read into this incident is that Jesus wanted them to receive that Spirit right now, but this is not borne out by previous statements of Jesus concerning the work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said;

“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." John 14:25,26.

Notice the use of the forward projecting word "will". This implies a future event.

" When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." John 16:13.

Again, here in this verse Jesus is speaking of future events; the guiding, the speaking, the declaring are all future in nature, more than implying that when certain conditions within them are met these things will finally occur.