karl Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 If polls are all you can give me, I'll accept the Gallup poll... What are you looking for? I don't see why it would make one shred of difference what these polls show. Why can't we agree that killing babies is bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 4, 2010 Members Share Posted January 4, 2010 You're the one who brought up polls. Killing born babies is murder, I will agree to that. Therapeutic abortions I don't consider as "killing babies"... And I still maintain that it is a woman's right to choose. I may not agree with her choice, but it IS her choice, made between her and her God. If she asks my opinion, I will give it to her. But I'm not going to force my own beliefs onto her because I believe she has the right to make up her own mind. Abortion is sad, not "bad." Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Don't want to confuse anybody with facts, but a recent Quinnipiac University survey shows opposition to abortion American voters mostly disapprove of the pro-abortion health care bill, by a 53-36 percent margin. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 4, 2010 Members Share Posted January 4, 2010 Your the one who brought up polls. Killing born babies is murder, I will agree to that. Therapeutic abortions I don't consider as "killing babies"... And I still maintain that it is a woman's right to choose. I may not agree with her choice, but it IS her choice, made between her and her God. If she asks my opinion, I will give it to her. But I'm not going to force my own beliefs onto her because I believe she has the right to make up her own mind. Abortion is sad, not "bad." Seems to me that now that you found a poll to show it the other way, all of a sudden polls are no good. And your right about the HC poll that shows that people are against the abortion part and that's because they would have to help fund it. I think like every poll that is out there, if you ask the question in such a way that you can get the answer you want from that. And that statement about how many ministries that are pro-choice, that help those that have gone through that ordeal. Makes as much sense as someone saying how many times has a pro-choice person killed a pro-life person, whereas people that are pro-life (ironic I'd say) have killed people that are pro-choice? As far as I can tell people that are pro-life have done quite a bit of killing of the other side. Whereas people that are pro-choice have not gone around killing the otherside. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 thats because pro-choice people are all about others rights, while self-proclaimed "pro-lifers" are all about control, from my experience. Quote: To show the relation of the secular power to the church, as held by Romanists, we quote the answer of the same writer to the argument that the only weapon committed to the church is "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." To this he replied: "As the church has ecclesiastical and secular princes, who are her two arms, so she has two swords, the spiritual and material; and therefore when her right hand is unable to convert a heretic with the sword of the Spirit, she invokes the aid of the left hand, and coerces heretics with the material sword." In answer to the argument that the apostles never invoked the secular arm against heretics, he says, "The apostles did it not, because there was no Christian prince whom they could call on for aid. But afterward, in Constantine's time, . . . the church called in the aid of the secular arm." -- Dowling's History of Romanism, pp. 547,548. p. 139, Para. 2. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 As far as I can tell people that are pro-life have done quite a bit of killing of the other side. Whereas people that are pro-choice have not gone around killing the otherside. pk I'm not if favor of killing anyone, but I don't think you have grasped the impact of what you tried to say above. It should go like this: Millions of unborn babies killed versus a handful of baby killers killed. In this war, the babies are losing. Everybody knows this. It is self-evident. Not enough people care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Originally Posted By: pkrause As far as I can tell people that are pro-life have done quite a bit of killing of the other side. Whereas people that are pro-choice have not gone around killing the otherside. pk I'm not if favor of killing anyone, but I don't think you have grasped the impact of what you tried to say above. It should go like this: Millions of unborn babies killed versus a handful of baby killers killed. In this war, the babies are losing. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk It would be nice if your "reasoning" were "unassailable" too. You present many redherring arguments abut the Church to bolster your abortion theory claims. Your reference to Vance Ferrel materials, your reference to "Adventist leaders cooperated with Nazi regime, your accusation of the Adventist Church promoting genocide, your calloused assertions of where you send your tithes and why, your cries of victim complex by accusing people of saying you are not a "legitimate Adventist;" why you have provided a long litany of complaints about the Church in your "documentation;" which in fact do not reflect just how the current Conference Guidelines On Abortion are indeed a blanket approval by same for abortion, or, Pro Choice. What your many bitter laments tell me and others is that you have a major problem with the Church in general. That being said; it doesn't follow that I see you as any less than me or anyone else in the Church. I think you can do with less of your false dichotomies, and more of correct context for what I am saying here about the official Conference Guidelines. I am saying that these guidelines do not mean what you say they do; and I am saying that you, either intentionally or unintentionally, are misrepresenting the Church's true position on it all by drawing in your many other problems and complaints with the Church. Overaged, Thanks for answering my comments. I did answer most of your arguments contained in this posting. Of course, you may have not read them yet. This might be due to the fact that the volume of posting makes it difficult to keep track of everything. I have 80 posting I haven’t had a chance to either read or respond to. I will try to succinctly address some of your concerns here: 1. Vance Ferrell material. The name rings a bell but for some reason I can’t recall having named him in my comments to you. Can you help? 2. Adventist Cooperation with the Nazi Regime. This was published by the Adventist Review. Did you think that I had made this up? I did give you the link to the article and I will give it to you again: http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=92 . 3. Adventist Promoting Genocide. Can you give me the reference? I do not recall having used such expression. If I did, I would like to clarify the same. What I believe is that when a church defends the pro-choice position on abortion, then it indirectly facilitates the killing of innocent unborn children. Adventist women would be less likely to choose the abortion alternative if the church had a pro-life attitude towards abortion similar to the Adventist pioneers. We are complaining that our church is not growing in the U.S. How can it grow, if we condone the killing of the future generation of Adventists, and if some of our hospitals provide ELECTIVE abortions to their patients? 4. The Tithe Issue. Can you explain why you consider my sending a portion of my tithes and offerings for the promotion of my pro-life views as “callous”? I did mention that on several occasions I did send pro-life donations to my local church and to the General Conference. My pro-life donations were returned with the note: The church does not have a pro-life program; of course, because the church is pro-choice. Pro-choice means pro-killing of innocent human beings under many circumstances. 5. The Legitimacy of my Adventism. I have been accused of being a Catholic Jesuit simply because I happen to agree with the Catholic position on abortion, which mirrors that of our Adventist pioneers. Is this a sin? Am I wrong in clarifying that I am a second generation Adventist and that most of my schooling was in Adventists institutions? 6. Guidelines on Abortion. You keep referring to the “Guidelines on Abortion” as “Conference Guidelines on Abortion.” For me the term “Conference” means the local conference. Am I wrong? 7. My Problem with the Church. Yes, I consider the killing of innocent human being a “major” problem. It represents the violation of the Sixth Commandment. If we condemn Rome for having altered the true meaning of the fourth Commandment, we need to look in the mirror and admit that we have done something similar to the Sixth Commandment of the Decalogue. Should I sit silent? And we have done this not only by what we condone, but also by what we do in our own medical centers when we provide ELECTIVE abortions to our patients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 4, 2010 Members Share Posted January 4, 2010 Adventist women would be less likely to choose the abortion alternative if the church had a pro-life attitude towards abortion similar to the Adventist pioneers. non sequitor Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Adventist women would be less likely to choose the abortion alternative if the church had a pro-life attitude towards abortion similar to the Adventist pioneers. non sequitor Do you know what a non sequitur is, Pam? Nic's statement above, even though you disagree with it, is a good example of a sequitur. Something feasibly happening if something else happens. The fact that you disagree with the conclusion does not make it a non sequitur. A non sequitur is when the conclusion cannot be derived from the premise, even if you agree with it. It is like saying, "Because there are 365 days in the year, spiked hair is ugly, or bile is green, or rocks act as a heat sink." None of these conclusions can be feasibly derived from the premise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 4, 2010 Members Share Posted January 4, 2010 Yes, I know what a non sequitor is. Nic's conclusion does not reasonably follow his premise. Thank you for letting me know your thoughts on the matter. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Yes, I know what a non sequitor is. Thank you. Nic's conclusion does not reasonably follow his premise. Are you then claiming that there would be MORE Adventist abortions if the church took a stand like that of the Adventist Pioneers? If you believe the conclusion Nic drew from his premise does not reasonably follow, what do you propose WOULD reasonably follow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Adventist women would be less likely to choose the abortion alternative if the church had a pro-life attitude towards abortion similar to the Adventist pioneers. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Adventist women would be less likely to choose the abortion alternative if the church had a pro-life attitude towards abortion similar to the Adventist pioneers. Originally Posted By: karl Are you then claiming that there would be MORE Adventist abortions if the church took a stand like that of the Adventist Pioneers? If you believe the conclusion Nic drew from his premise does not reasonably follow, what do you propose WOULD reasonably follow? [/quote']karl, for real!! presenting an ------ claim and accusing the other person of it is -------. as i said, stuff just starts coming out without reason or rhyme! and nic has not proven his claim, in spite of his thousands and thousands of words! or perhaps you could start providing the "proof", yourself instead of just making claims? You're going to have to elucidate, Teresa. I have no idea what you mean by what you wrote above. I'm not making any claims other than suggesting that Nic's conclusion is a reasonable one, even if you disagree with it. Nic said fewer Adventist women would choose abortion if the church took a stand similar to that of the Adventist Pioneers. Pam said Nic's conclusion was a non sequitur. So if, as Pam says, Nic's conclusion does not reasonably follow from his premise, what do you think DOES reasonably follow from Nic's premise? What do you think would happen to the choices of Adventist women who have unwanted pregnancies if the SDA church came out against abortion the way the Adventist Pioneers did? Do you think the choices for abortion would rise or fall? Straightforward question. I don't understand all the protest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 4, 2010 Members Share Posted January 4, 2010 I'm not claiming anything, except that I would not judge a woman who had an abortion. In the pioneer days, abortion was hardly mentioned, much less openly discussed in the home. I have that information from ones who lived during those years. My grandmother and great grandmother. The conclusion Nic drew from his premise is that the church is now pro-life. I agree that that is probably true. What difference does that make on a woman's choice? We are not Catholics who need a Pope to tell us what to do. God gave each of us a mind to use. Why do you not let a woman use her mind, instead of being so pompous as to know what is best for someone else? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda) Originally Posted By: karl Are you then claiming that there would be MORE Adventist abortions if the church took a stand like that of the Adventist Pioneers? If you believe the conclusion Nic drew from his premise does not reasonably follow, what do you propose WOULD reasonably follow? [/quote']karl, for real!! presenting an ------ claim and accusing the other person of it is -------. as i said, stuff just starts coming out without reason or rhyme! and nic has not proven his claim, in spite of his thousands and thousands of words! or perhaps you could start providing the "proof", yourself instead of just making claims? Nic said fewer Adventist women would choose abortion if the church took a stand similar to that of the Adventist Pioneers. you havent proven the pioneers took a stand. and who, exactly, took a count as to how many "adventist" women have abortions? Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 There is no way that anyone can know with absolute certainty that there are more women who oppose elective abortion than support it. No way. And that's a fact. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Killing born babies is murder, I will agree to that. Therapeutic abortions I don't consider as "killing babies"... And I still maintain that it is a woman's right to choose. I may not agree with her choice, but it IS her choice, made between her and her God... I don't agree that a woman has a "right" to abortion. If she does, where did she get that "right"? Where did the "right" come from? No such "right" is stated in the Bible nor in the Constitution. So I don't believe any such "right" exists. That said however, banning abortion has been shown to be counterproductive if we are trying to reduce the number of abortions performed. If what we really want to do is to reduce the number of abortions performed, then keeping abortion legal and placing restrictions on it is what has been shown to effectively reduce the number of abortions performed. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 5, 2010 Members Share Posted January 5, 2010 I said A WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE....CHOOSE....CHOOSE....CHOOSE....CHOOSE... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 5, 2010 Members Share Posted January 5, 2010 There is no way that anyone can know with absolute certainty that there are more women who oppose elective abortion than support it. No way. And that's a fact. Polls are not always accurate. Statistics can be manipulated. The only way to know with absolute certainty is to query every woman on earth. That is not possible. And that's a fact. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs There is no way that anyone can know with absolute certainty that there are more women who oppose elective abortion than support it. No way. And that's a fact. Polls are not always accurate. Statistics can be manipulated. The only way to know with absolute certainty is to query every woman on earth. That is not possible. And that's a fact. as i said before i have watching this movement since it started. the goal is to manipulate and bully til the opposition is either brainwashed or gives up to have some peace, as can be seen by the posts here. so i wouldnt doubt that the polls are close to accurate. the same thing has been done with any other subject some group wants to take over. the only thing ive seen that prevents such tactics to work is to draw closer and closer to God and be well-studied as to what the truth is. the trinity-antitrinitarian wars were real doozies. they even slaughtered each other in churches!! the argument? the trinitarians believe Christ is eternally begotten. the antitrinitarians that Christ was begotten once, way back before eternity. the exact same thing practiced here with abortion, and with homosexualty in other places, will be done with the sunday law. the exact same tactics! Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Shane, Would you make the same argument in favor of legalizing rape incest, stealing, and murder? I have went over this before. Please don't ask me to repeat myself over and over. That gets real tiring. Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Your second argument is based on statistics usually provided by either Planned Parenthood... No. The stats I have read come out of the various countries. Living on the border and being bi-lingual, I ofter watch Mexican news from Mexican channels and read Mexican newspapers published in Mexico. Planned Parenthood is not my news source. If you use the same arguments in defense of your understanding of certain issues, you should not be surprised if I respond the way I previously answered your arguments. Are you the only one entitled to repeat yourself again and again? What I say is for the sake of others, instead of trying to annoy you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda) meanwhile more children are sold into prostitution. more children die slow, painful deaths of starvation. more children are living on the streets surviving the best they can. more infants and girls are raped because men believe sex with a virgen will cure aids. thats just the tip of the iceberg. Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. im not going to address any more of these meaningless posts in light of what is truly important. [/quote'] So because of all those dangers we should kill them first? With that kind of reasoning, I think you are right not to comment anymore. Go take care of the truly important things. And about those texts you quoted, I don't see what they have to do with abortion. I didn't see one that says: "I was in danger, so you snuffed out my life". Yes! If those texts apply to abortion, then perhaps this other text is also in the Bible: "I was being aborted, and you saved me from a sure death!" By the way, I once asked a Loma Linda graduate M.D. whether he would have offered an abortion to Mary, the mother of Jesus, and he surprised me with the following answer: “I would not have hesitated a moment.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Do we as a church have the right to consider ourselves to be “God’s Remnant” on earth, those who “keep God’s Commandments” and at the same time defend women’s right to butcher their own children? That is not the church's position. Can you illuminate me as to the churchs's true position? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Yes it is.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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