Woody Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Until you are in someone else's shoes regarding abortion, you don't have a right to tell that person what to do. IMHO Or to condemn them. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 Rudywoofs good point. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Until you are in someone else's shoes regarding abortion, you don't have a right to tell that person what to do. IMHO Until you are in someone else's shoes regarding murder, you don't have a right to tell that person what to do. IMHO If something is clearly wrong, we should warn others. If you believe that abortion is wrong, but you just sit there and don't DO anything, then you might as well approve of it. Tell people that it's wrong and why. This is not something trifling. This involves human lives. How can people just shrug it off and say "It's their choice"? It IS their choice, but whatever they choose, abortion is still wrong. Don't judge them. Don't be against them. Be FOR the mother and FOR the baby. Being only for the mother is child abuse, and being only for the baby is insensitive to the mother. We're Christians. Why on earth would you WANT to justify snuffing out human lives that God created? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 What is your view of spontaneous abortion? Does God "murder" then??? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 What is your view of spontaneous abortion? Does God "murder" then??? What is your view of post-birth child death? Does God "murder" them??? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 You are avoiding answering my question. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 You are avoiding answering my question. No, I'm not. The answer to my question is the answer to yours. Unless you believe that God actually does kill innocent already-born children. We live in a sinful world. God isn't the one causing the problems here. Do you think that it is wrong for Satan to cause miscarriages, or that it's his choice? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 [quote name='teresaq(sda)Let me know when 1. anyone is able to shrink someone back into a cell and stick it back in the womb 2. when we will be able to determine whether someone will be a beethoven' date=' Jesus, manson or hitler when they grow up. [/quote'] Teresa, Since we can’t shrink people back to the size of a tiny cell, and since we can’t read the future of a fertilized cell, wouldn’t you agree that the safest solution would be to let God be God? He can read the future, yet he lets the cell develop without any personal interference, shouldn’t we do the same? Would you shoot at a target in a dark if you can't tell whether the object behind a bush is an animal or another human being? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 So you believe all miscarriages are Satanic-induced? I suggest you read a good OB/GYN book before coming to that conclusion. Abortion is a choice, and a difficult one. I stand by my first statement that unless you've been there, you don't have a right to tell a person what to do. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 There is not a concensus on this issue. As a Christian ... I refuse to impose my personal belief on others. Redwood, Are you saying that, since there is no consensus, then it is morally acceptable for our church to participate in the killing of innocent babies and reap the profits generated by this billion dollars industry? Would you say the same about the violation of the other Commandments of the Decalogue like engaging in stealing and the murder of those who had the luck to have been allowed to be born? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 The others have consensus. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 So you believe all miscarriages are Satanic-induced? I suggest you read a good OB/GYN book before coming to that conclusion. Abortion is a choice, and a difficult one. I stand by my first statement that unless you've been there, you don't have a right to tell a person what to do. Yes, I believe that death is the result of sin, which is caused by Satan. Of course it's a choice. Murder is a choice, lying is a choice, adultery is a choice. Nobody wants to justify those by implying that whatever someone chooses is right. So why justify the intentional deaths of unborn babies? I don't have to be in that situation to know that killing a baby that God created is wrong. Unless you have to be a former drug addict to know that drugs are wrong, and you have to have had an affair to know that adultery is wrong, and you have to rob a bank to know that stealing is wrong. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Good point Siv. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 The key word in all that is "I". Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 The key word in all that is "I". That's the key word for a lot of people who have abortions, too, I imagine. At least with the ones who don't think about what abortion actually means. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Interesting that the founding 'fathers' of our church never attempted to impose their beliefs on abortion through forced legislation. In fact ... the founding fathers never officially mentioned abortion to my knowledge. Redwood, Are you serious? Are you aware that abortion was illegal in our country until 1973? Why would they engage in making abortion illegal if abortion was already illegal? Since you are under the wrong impression that our Adventist pioneers were silent on this issue, then let me quote the following from my doctoral dissertation: James White Quote: Few are aware of the fearful extent to which this nefarious business, this worse than devilish practice, is carried on in all classes of society! Many a woman determines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has as many children as he can support, instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten. The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure; for the father, although he may not always aid in the murder, is always accessory to it, in that he induces, and sometimes even forces upon the mother the condition which he knows will lead to the commission of the crime. [2] John Harvey Kellogg Quote: The idea held by many that the destruction of foetal [sic] life is not a crime until after “quickening” has occurred is a gross and mischievous error. No change occurs in the developing human being at this period. The so-called period of “quickening” is simply the period at which the movements of the little one become sufficiently active and vigorous to attract the attention of the mother. Long before this, slight movements have been taking place, and from the very moment of conception, those processes have been in operation which result in the production of a fully developed human being from a mere jelly drop, a minute cell. As soon as this development begins, a new human being has come into existence--in embryo, it is true, but possessed of its own individuality, with its own future, its possibilities of joy, grief, success, failure, fame, and ignominy. From this moment, it acquires the right to life, a right so sacred that in every land to violate it is to incur the penalty of death. How many murderers and murderesses have gone unpunished! None but God knows the full extent of this most heinous crime; but the Searcher of all hearts knows and remembers every one who has thus transgressed; and in the day of final reckoning, what will the verdict be? Murder? MURDER [sic], child murder, the slaughter of the innocents more cruel than Herod, more cold-blooded than the midnight assassin, more criminal than the man who slays his enemy--the most unnatural, the most inhuman, the most revolting of all crimes against human life. [3] J.N. Andrews Quote: One of the most shocking, and yet one of the most prevalent sins of this generation, is the murder of unborn infants. Let those who think this a small sin, read Ps. 139:16. They will see that even the unborn child is written in God’s book. And they may be well assured that God will not pass unnoticed the murder of such children. [4] John Todd Quote: As to guilt, I want all to know that, in the sight of God, it is willful murder. “The willful killing of a human being at any stage of its existence, is murder. It is quenching immortal existence, it is destroying what, in a few months or weeks, would bear God’s image: and if anyone thinks she can do it without the guilt of murder, she is greatly mistaken. The very remembrance of this guilt has often upset the reason, and by remorse, turned the doer into madness.” [5] Uriah Smith Quote: You show me a church that fails to take a stand on political issues that involve moral principles, [6] and I’ll show you a church that is spineless, irrelevant, and morally bankrupt. . . . No issue is too controversial for us to address and honestly in pages of our church paper. [7] Ellen G. White Quote: If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering [8] his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them. [9] http://sdaforum.com/page114.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 You appear to have an interesting concept of who are founding fathers are. And also ... a lack of understanding of what "official" means. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 You appear to have an interesting concept of who are founding fathers are. And also ... a lack of understanding of what "official" means. I think you are the one lacking knowledge of who the founding fathers are. That list of names Are the founding fathers. James White being the foremost. I've seen you say EGW founded the church, but that isn't true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 The Founders of our Church are considered to be James and Ellen White and Joseph Bates. I think Ellen White would turn over in her grave to learn that John Harvey Kellogg founded the church. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 James White and Joseph Bates. Ellen Harmon came later, and ended up marrying James White. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 What about William Miller, without him there would be no Adventists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 What about William Miller, without him there would be no Adventists. He was not a founder because he never joined the church. He was an Adventist ... but not a Seventh day Adventist. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 That is right, he was dead when the Seventh-day Adventist church organized. I was just saying that without him and his courage to make his prophetic understanding public we would not have any of those who did organize into the SDA church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 He was instrumental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Chibibis Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 It has been repeatedly stated that we do not have the right to impose our will on others. Actually, we not only have the right, but it is necessary if we are to live in a civilized society. We do it through the rule of law. As citizens in a constitutional republic, we are responsible to see that just, equitable and humane laws are established. When laws are enacted or courts make rulings that create bad laws, then citizens have an obligation to work to make corrections. If this doesn't happen, society deteriorates over time. It appears that the Seventh-day Adventist church made a very bad decision when its leaders chose to switch directions and in effect, approve of abortion and allow this to be done in its hospitals and clinics. The church may one day pay a terrible price of a very tarnished image with little chance of recovery when public awareness in and especially out of the church reaches a "tipping point" and the commercial media picks up on this and begins to heap contempt on us for preaching the law and practicing what millions of Evangelicals and others strongly believe is murder for profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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