Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Until you are in someone else's shoes regarding abortion, you don't have a right to tell that person what to do. IMHO Rudywoofs, Interesting comment! Does this mean that the Adventist pioneers who spoke so clearly about abortion had no right to do this? Are you saying that the nine Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court who legalized abortion had no right to rule on this issue, since they had not walked on “someone else’s shoes”? Are you suggesting that only burglars and murderers have a right to talk about the validity of the Decalogue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 If the Adventist church is not pro-life, it should be Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 What is your view of spontaneous abortion? Does God "murder" then??? Rudywoofs, Good question! Have you ever investigated the cause for spontaneous abortions? Do you think that that there is any evidence that God is the one causing them? Is God the author of disease? Jesus dedicated his life to heal all kinds of diseases. Abortion is antithetical to what Jesus’ mission was. He said: “I have come that you may have life, and that you might have it more abundantly.” He also stated: “Let the children come to me.” How can those children who are poisoned or dismembered before taking their first breath come to Jesus? Because of sin, nature does cause spontaneous abortion. Well, nature also kills through tornados, tsunamis, and earthquakes. Should we feel free to imitate nature? Should we say: “The earthquake killed thousands in Indonesia, lets go and kill a few thousands more?” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Quote: Of course it's a choice. Murder is a choice, lying is a choice, adultery is a choice. Nobody wants to justify those by implying that whatever someone chooses is right. So why justify the intentional deaths of unborn babies? I don't have to be in that situation to know that killing a baby that God created is wrong. Unless you have to be a former drug addict to know that drugs are wrong, and you have to have had an affair to know that adultery is wrong, and you have to rob a bank to know that stealing is wrong. Sivart, How true! We are free to do wrong and to make wrong choices. Adam and Eve made a wrong choice, and see the awful results of their choice! Now what is it that they did? Did they commit murder? Did they kill their first baby? The answer is “No.” They simply stole an apple, or forbidden fruit. I have never stolen an apple, as far as I remember. Does this mean that I have no right to tell my little boy that stealing apples is wrong? I have never killed anybody in my life, does it follow then that I have no right to tell my children that murder is wrong? I am so glad that you have the courage to stick to the right in spite of the strong opposition we are faced with on this forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 You appear to have an interesting concept of who are founding fathers are. And also ... a lack of understanding of what "official" means. Redwood, Please, read the context! I was talking about the Adventist church, not the founding fathers of our nation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 It has been repeatedly stated that we do not have the right to impose our will on others. Actually, we not only have the right, but it is necessary if we are to live in a civilized society. We do it through the rule of law. As citizens in a constitutional republic, we are responsible to see that just, equitable and humane laws are established. When laws are enacted or courts make rulings that create bad laws, then citizens have an obligation to work to make corrections. If this doesn't happen, society deteriorates over time. It appears that the Seventh-day Adventist church made a very bad decision when its leaders chose to switch directions and in effect, approve of abortion and allow this to be done in its hospitals and clinics. The church may one day pay a terrible price of a very tarnished image with little chance of recovery when public awareness in and especially out of the church reaches a "tipping point" and the commercial media picks up on this and begins to heap contempt on us for preaching the law and practicing what millions of Evangelicals and others strongly believe is murder for profit. Pete, God must have sent you here at the right moment to say what was needed to be said! God has granted the government the heavy responsibility of protecting the lives and property of the human being under its jurisdiction. The Lord is a God of order. This is what we are studying this quarter in our Sabbath School. God expects the government to create laws which are fair and just for all concerned. The Roe v Wade decision was a bad law which took away the right to life of our future generation. This law must not be defended, and much less be taken advantage of to enrich the bank accounts of Adventists who own a large number of abortion clinics. They may make large donations to the Adventist institutions, but such funds will not be blessed by the Lord. It was reported in our “Ministry” magazine a few years ago that five of our hospitals were offering elective abortions to their patients. This is a disgrace to our cause. As a church we have failed the test of loyalty to God’s Commandments the second time. The first time took place over half a century ago when our church cooperated with the Nazi regime while six millions Jews were being exterminated. Now fifty millions have perished with the blessing of the Adventist Church. A few years ago, the German and Austrian leaders of the Adventist Church issued a public apology for this failure of the church to stand for what is right. The hospitals owned by the Catholic Church do not perform abortions. The Pope might be wrong on the state of the dead and about hell, but he is right about the state of the living. We often talk about the time of tribulation forgetting that such a time is here for the unborn. We fear a future death decree against the Sabbath keepers, forgetting that the death decree against the innocents has already been in force since 1973. Unless we repent, we will soon be a bunch of blind leading the blind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 The Founders of our Church are considered to be James and Ellen White and Joseph Bates. I think Ellen White would turn over in her grave to learn that John Harvey Kellogg founded the church. Redwood: Who started our medical work? Did Kellog play a roll in this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 If the Adventist church is not pro-life, it should be Olger, I say amen to that! Actually, I think that the right to life should be a fundamental belief of the Adventist Church. Our belief in "Present Truth" requires this. I know of nobody who has lost his life for worhipping on the wrong day of the week; while fifty millions perished when the U.S. Supreme Court legalized the killing of the innocents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I support our church and the stand it is taking in the face of severe extremist opposition. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Chibibis Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 The Seventh-day Adventist church claims that its God given mission as His remnant people is to proclaim the third angel's message. The call to "come out of Babylon" is the final warning to the world and has the purpose of rescuing God's people who are still in the other denominations and religions. It is said that there are about 2 billion Roman Catholics and a large number of Evangelicals and other Christians. We know that virtually all Roman Catholics and a significant number of people in other denominations believe that abortion is murder. How can these good Christian people take seriouly our claim that we are God's remnant church? They must think it is a sick joke to hear us tell them that they must leave their churches to avoid the dreadful warnings contained in Rev. 14:9-11 and join our church which approves and supports what they are firmly convinced is murder of innocent unborn babies. As well meaning as their intentions may have been, it is unbelievably irrational that our church leaders have erected such an insurmountable obstacle which has the potential to prevent literally billions of people from accepting our message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Quote: How can these good Christian people take seriouly our claim that we are God's remnant church? There seems to be some kind of contest or competition as to which church is the Remnant Church. I don't think it's healthy. A few weeks ago I went to one of our churchs and across the street was a church with the name of God's Remnant Church. But they were closed on Sabbath so I was not able to explore it more. Anyways ... my point is that it is not important to try to be so exclusive as to claim to be the Remnant. Just go about doing the will of God by spreading the Gospel. God will take care of the rest. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I support our church and the stand it is taking in the face of severe extremist opposition. Our Adventist Church redefined the true meaning of the Sixth Commandment of the Decalogue and you support this? Please contrast this with what the Catholic Church did to the Fourth Commandment! It altered its true meaning, but this did not create a genocide of a large group of human beings, while the legalization of abortion did cause the extermination of fifty million innocent human beings. How can we justify this with a clear conscience? By doing this, we end with blood on our hands! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I justify it by not accepting your extremist and anti-organizational premise. God is leading our church. It is not Babylon. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I justify it by not accepting your extremist and anti-organizational premise. God is leading our church. It is not Babylon. Is it anti-organizational to say that our church is wrong about something? When has evaluating our beliefs ever hurt the church? Jones and Waggonner were "anti-organizational", but Ellen White endorsed this anti-organizational belief of theirs and now we take it for granted. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 The Seventh-day Adventist church claims that its God given mission as His remnant people is to proclaim the third angel's message. The call to "come out of Babylon" is the final warning to the world and has the purpose of rescuing God's people who are still in the other denominations and religions. It is said that there are about 2 billion Roman Catholics and a large number of Evangelicals and other Christians. We know that virtually all Roman Catholics and a significant number of people in other denominations believe that abortion is murder. How can these good Christian people take seriouly our claim that we are God's remnant church? They must think it is a sick joke to hear us tell them that they must leave their churches to avoid the dreadful warnings contained in Rev. 14:9-11 and join our church which approves and supports what they are firmly convinced is murder of innocent unborn babies. As well meaning as their intentions may have been, it is unbelievably irrational that our church leaders have erected such an insurmountable obstacle which has the potential to prevent literally billions of people from accepting our message. Pete, Well said! No wonder some Adventists have left the Adventist Church for the Church of Rome. When I was young, we Adventist used to identify Rome with the “Beast of Revelation.” Well, I ask: what do beasts of prey do? They attack the weakest and most vulnerable victims and kill them. How can we equate what beasts do with what the Catholic Church has done for the unborn? The Pope has championed the cause of the innocents in spite of the ever growing willingness to justify the destruction of the large segment of the human race. Quite often I hear the argument: “What about rape?” Well here is a segment of the story of a successful artist who was conceived as a result of rape. I am posting only a small bite of this incredible story of forgiveness, but I hope this will entice you to read the entire story: “A child Conceived in Rape. Already shaken by the traumatic sexual assault, Ann made a shocking discovery when she went to stay with her parents in Jackson, Miss. "At that time, I didn't know I was pregnant," she said. "Three months later, I found out I was, and my parents didn't want me to have the baby, let alone keep it." Her mother insisted that she have an abortion. But Ann adamantly refused. "I didn't believe in destroying her, so I had her," Ann said in the video. "And they forced me to give her up." Now that little baby, Juda Myers, is grown and shares her inspirational story of life. "She knew I was a human," Myers told WND. "She said she couldn't kill a kitten or a puppy, much less a human baby." ... Read More: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=112324 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 There seems to be some kind of contest or competition as to which church is the Remnant Church. I don't think it's healthy. A few weeks ago I went to one of our churchs and across the street was a church with the name of God's Remnant Church. But they were closed on Sabbath so I was not able to explore it more. Anyways ... my point is that it is not important to try to be so exclusive as to claim to be the Remnant. Just go about doing the will of God by spreading the Gospel. God will take care of the rest. Redwood, The will of God was clearly expressed when the Author of life wrote on two tables of stone: "You shall not murder." Are you suggesting that violating God’s clearest command is doing God’s will? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 I justify it by not accepting your extremist and anti-organizational premise. God is leading our church. It is not Babylon. Redwood, My position is aligned with what God wrote on two tables of stone, and you call this “extremist and anti organizational”? Have you forgotten how God’s people are defined in Revelation 14:12? Are you trying to redefine what the Adventist Church has been teaching since the days of Ellen and James White? Are we supposed to act like a bunch of sheep which follow the leader, and if the leader jumps of the cliff, all the others blindly follow? Did I say that the church was Babylon? It was called to be the "Remnant" of God. Israel was likewise called to be God's chosen people, but in the end it failed. Our church needs to rectify what went wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 Excellent points Nic. You are absolutely right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 “A child Conceived in Rape. Already shaken by the traumatic sexual assault, Ann made a shocking discovery when she went to stay with her parents in Jackson, Miss. "At that time, I didn't know I was pregnant," she said. "Three months later, I found out I was, and my parents didn't want me to have the baby, let alone keep it." Her mother insisted that she have an abortion. But Ann adamantly refused. "I didn't believe in destroying her, so I had her," Ann said in the video. "And they forced me to give her up." Now that little baby, Juda Myers, is grown and shares her inspirational story of life. "She knew I was a human," Myers told WND. "She said she couldn't kill a kitten or a puppy, much less a human baby." ... Read More: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=112324 Thank you for this story, Nic. That is amazing. Imagine if Ann had aborted the baby... and there would be one less person for God to love, one less person to change the world. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 12, 2009 Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 I think your putting words in Redwoods post. If you read his prior posts he said he was against abortion, did he not. So I don't see that in what he said. But like most here I've read that they are against abortion but are for choice. Again you can't place abortion with the stealing, honoring your parents, or any of the others. Abortion as far as I know is not illegal. Morally it could be considered wrong. And besides its between God and the individual not you and them, or me and them. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I think your putting words in Redwoods post. If you read his prior posts he said he was against abortion, did he not. So I don't see that in what he said. But like most here I've read that they are against abortion but are for choice. Again you can't place abortion with the stealing, honoring your parents, or any of the others. Abortion as far as I know is not illegal. Morally it could be considered wrong. And besides its between God and the individual not you and them, or me and them. pk But if it's wrong... it's just as wrong as any of those things. And we should take as strong a stand against abortion as stealing, honoring your parents, etc. If you believe that abortion is wrong, then there is no excuse for keeping quiet about it as it is "between them and God". Should we tell people that adultery is wrong? That stealing is wrong? That dishonoring your parents is wrong? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 12, 2009 Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 Your using an interesting word, "if" its wrong. The other ones your using are wrong period. Again Abortion is not Illegal in the USA, stealing is, murder is are they not? pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Murder is against God's law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 12, 2009 Members Share Posted October 12, 2009 Absolutely Richard and so is stealing. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.