Is the Adventist Church Really Pro-life?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

After 138 pages, I do believe my answer to the original question would be..."Frankly my dear, I don't give a _____!"

Deeply spiritual,CoAspen. If you really felt that way why did you waste your time and ours by posting on this thread?

I was wondering the same thing.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

After 138 pages, I do believe my answer to the original question would be..."Frankly my dear, I don't give a _____!"

Exactly my feelings on the matter, CoAspen. But I can't say it because someone in this forum will take what I say and use it against me.

What would be more fun than following this thread?

(Trying to fill in CoA's long blank.)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Wait..there's more. And it's "on topic"...

"But Miz Scarlett, I'se don' know nuthin' 'bout birthin' babies!"

NOW, I can say, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a reservoir!"

[Nic Samojluk]

from Reason for Posting Dissertation here

Quote:

he managed to successfully pass the last examination

split infinitive needs correcting

Quote:

friends an acquaintances he has decided

needs a comma, correct spelling of "and"

Quote:

dissertaion

correct spelling of dissertation

Quote:

Readers Corner:

use apostrophe on Reader's

The Dissertation

Quote:

FROM PRO-LIFE TO PRO-CHOICE

THE DRAMATIC SHIFT OF

SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS’ ATTITUDE

TOWARDS ABORTION

there should be a colon [:] after PRO-CHOICE

Under Acknowledgements

Quote:

Many books have been written and many studies have been conducted dealing with the controversial issue of abortion, but very few of them have been authored by Seventh-day Adventist scholars, and much less by someone who is not a paid employee of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Actually, none has been written by someone who is completely detached from the trappings of church employment, where fear of loosing the source of one’s income might tempt the author to compromise on the integrity of the data available to the investigator.

run-on sentences. Make smaller.

Here is an edited version of this paragraph:

Many books have been written and numerous studies have been conducted dealing with the controversial issue of abortion. Very few, however, of these have been authored by Seventh-day Adventist scholars. Indeed, none have been written by someone who is completely detached from church employment [leave out "trappings"] where fear of losing one's job may tempt the author to compromise the integrity of the available data.

Under "Abstract"

Quote:

From the moment of its inception the members of the Seventh-day Adventist [sDA] religious denomination portrayed themselves as the apocalyptic Remnant that keep the commandments of God in the midst of almost universal apostasy.

Hyperbole...

Edited version:

From its earliest times, the members of the Seventh-day Adventist [sDA] denomination saw themselves as the apocalyptic Remnant church that kept the commandments of God in the midst of what they considered to be a nearly worldwide apostasy. (YOU NEED REFERENCES HERE)

Quote:

One of those commandments clearly forbids killing, yet abortions are taking place inside SDA operated hospitals, both therapeutic and even elective in some of them, while conflicting statements are made by leading officials of the church, with the current president of the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist affirming that the SDA church is pro-life.

You are using a run-on sentence for the whole thing. Cut it up into smaller pieces.

Edited version:

One of those commandments, the sixth, forbids killing. It is submitted that abortions are the killing of the unborn. Abortions, however, are taking place inside SDA-operated hospitals, both therapeutic and elective abortions. The SDA church's leading officials and the current General Conference President have made conflicting statements, affirming that the SDA church is pro-life. (YOU NEED REFERENCES HERE)

Quote:

To elucidate this apparently enigmatic contradiction, the author of this study decided to investigate this incongruous ethical situation, and made the following discoveries:

Edited version:

To elucidate the apparent enigma, the author of this study investigated the incongruous ethical situation. He made the following discoveries: {A-L YOU NEED REFERENCES]

Edited version:

Early SDA pioneers appear to manifest opposition to abortion.

Quote:

B. B. Two thirds of those who have expressed their opinions in the leading, recently published, SDA books and periodicals seem to be on the pro-life side of this issue, but lack the power to set the official policy of the church.

"seem to be" is not factual...

I could go on, but this would take forever. I didn't change anything you said, Nic. I only made it more readable.

Pam,

This was a great surprise, and it represents what I have been asking for from the beginning. You have partially redeemed yourself with this action. You have provided evidence that you are able to contribute with constructive criticism. It will take me some time to examine and digest all your suggestions and I do have the intention of using them to improve my work. I will report later on.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Thank you, Nic. It took me a long time to do it because my computer isn't working very well. But I did try to keep your own thoughts in mind with the editing.

[Overaged]

Doug,

Thanks for the time and effort you have invested in correcting a few misunderstanding between our position and that of our opponents. I would like to set a few additional details straight. I believe that as long as we stick to the facts of the case, many things will become crystal clear to the unbiased reader.

1. The Availability of Sources. This morning, I counted the number of references I did list in my dissertation. They total 746. Less than one percent of the same came from the LLU Library Heritage Room. A major source for my research came from the official SDA “Ministry” magazine, which is available online. Much of the other references are also online, and I did provide the Internet links whenever the data was online.

2. The Alleged Claim to Expertise. I do not recall having ever claimed to be an expert and I did not suggest that people should believe my word because I hold a Ph. D. degree from an accredited university. A doctoral degree does not make people infallible. This is why I took the trouble to document a total of 746 sources, and provided the link to the information whenever it was available. Our opponents are raising a red herring and they should stop doing this!

[Overaged]

Pam,

This was a great surprise, and it represents what I have been asking for from the beginning. You have partially redeemed yourself with this action. You have provided evidence that you are able to contribute with constructive criticism. It will take me some time to examine and digest all your suggestions and I do have the intention of using them to improve my work. I will report later on.

She doesn't need to "redeem" herself to you or to anyone else here.

[Nic Samojluk]

Thank you, Nic. It took me a long time to do it because my computer isn't working very well. But I did try to keep your own thoughts in mind with the editing.

I understand! Thanks!

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged,

You state:

Quote:

To me; you are just attacking the church in general, on a number of issues. But on the issue of abortions, I see your arguments as one big "red herring." The official Conference Guidelines do in fact advise people to consider abortion alternatives; the Church is very strong on this; but you are trying to give other impressions, based on a number of other issues, not in fact related to abortions.

Those who are in the pro-abortion camp also claim that women should consider abortion alternatives and that abortion should be legal, available, and few. What has been the result of such policy? The genocide of fifty million innocent unborn babies. Would you recommend that we apply the same attitude towards other, less consequential illegal acts like stealing, rape, and sexual abuse of little children?

Should society say: “Before stealing consider other alternatives, but remember that stealing should be legal, available, and few.” Why do you make an exception when dealing with abortion? If my car is stolen, I can collect my insurance and buy another. This kind of restitution is not available to the baby being aborted. Deprivation of life is an irreversible action for which there is no undoing.

Right now there is a member of the Adventist Church in good standing who owns nearly 20 abortion clinics in California. In addition, a few years ago our “Ministry” magazine reported that five of our hospitals were offering ELECTIVE abortions to their patients. Elective, of course, means there is nothing wrong with the baby. Why is this allowed? Because the General Conference “Guidelines on Abortion” document is a worthless piece of paper. It is not prescriptive, but rather descriptive.

Each hospital is free to write its own guidelines. In one room of an Adventist hospital a physician is saving the life of a baby, while in the next room another doctor is killing a perfectly formed baby waiting for the right to be born. Are you happy with this? Do you still think that this is a red herring? Why would I spend thousand of hours and mortgage my house for a red herring? Does your argument make sense? If you want to discuss the “other issues” we may do so. Bring them up.

Abortion is not the only sacred cow we Adventists have sacrificed for the sake of expediency and profit. So far, I have tried to be faithful to my baptismal wow. It is not I who have changed, but my church. It does no longer resemble the church I originally joined nearly seven decades ago. Fortunately, we are still faithful regarding the sacredness of the Sabbath, the state of the death, and so on. This is why I am still a member.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Pam,

This was a great surprise, and it represents what I have been asking for from the beginning. You have partially redeemed yourself with this action. You have provided evidence that you are able to contribute with constructive criticism. It will take me some time to examine and digest all your suggestions and I do have the intention of using them to improve my work. I will report later on.

She doesn't need to "redeem" herself to you or to anyone else here.

I have made peace with Pam. Do not try to resurrect what has died an has been buried!

[Nic Samojluk]

Just to be clear, Pam did not use the word illegitimate. Rather, Nic used the word first, then I did. Pam and Aubrey are different persons.

Also, I provided further definitions of the word illegitimate. Which definition is being used could explain some of the confusion found here. Additionally, I provided information regarding my use of the word in my post. I will not repeat that post. It is recorded in this thread.

The reader will also find in this thread my opinion on which entity is rightful to judge a human decision when it regards meting out eternal consequences.

Aubrey,

I think that you need to read my previous posting dealing with this with a little bit more care. If you think that I broke any of the AJU rules for graduation and should not have been granted the degree, you need to contact the university and ask for an explanation. They were acting under the supervision of the accredited committee and I was not the only student who was allowed to graduate under the online terms of the university. And remember that there exist a number of differences between a regular university program and an online program. An online program does not require physical presence at the university campus for any of the learning activities connected with the granting of a degree.

Now, Aubrey, isn’t it time that we dealt with the real issue before us? Do you disagree with the heart of my research? Do you think that I was wrong when I suggested that the Adventist Church has deviated from the clear pro-life attitude of the early Adventist pioneers? Why have you persistently tried to avoid this basic question? It is the topic of this blog after all. Can you tell us where you stand on this core issue?

[Overaged]

Overaged,

You state:

Quote:

To me; you are just attacking the church in general, on a number of issues. But on the issue of abortions, I see your arguments as one big "red herring." The official Conference Guidelines do in fact advise people to consider abortion alternatives; the Church is very strong on this; but you are trying to give other impressions, based on a number of other issues, not in fact related to abortions.

Those who are in the pro-abortion camp also claim that women should consider abortion alternatives and that abortion should be legal, available, and few. What has been the result of such policy? The genocide of fifty million innocent unborn babies. Would you recommend that we apply the same attitude towards other, less consequential illegal acts like stealing, rape, and sexual abuse of little children?

Should society say: “Before stealing consider other alternatives, but remember that stealing should be legal, available, and few.” Why do you make an exception when dealing with abortion? If my car is stolen, I can collect my insurance and buy another. This kind of restitution is not available to the baby being aborted. Deprivation of life is an irreversible action for which there is no undoing.

Right now there is a member of the Adventist Church in good standing who owns nearly 20 abortion clinics in California. In addition, a few years ago our “Ministry” magazine reported that five of our hospitals were offering ELECTIVE abortions to their patients. Elective, of course, means there is nothing wrong with the baby. Why is this allowed? Because the General Conference “Guidelines on Abortion” document is a worthless piece of paper. It is not prescriptive, but rather descriptive.

Each hospital is free to write its own guidelines. In one room of an Adventist hospital a physician is saving the life of a baby, while in the next room another doctor is killing a perfectly formed baby waiting for the right to be born. Are you happy with this? Do you still think that this is a red herring? Why would I spend thousand of hours and mortgage my house for a red herring? Does your argument make sense? If you want to discuss the “other issues” we may do so. Bring them up.

Abortion is not the only sacred cow we Adventists have sacrificed for the sake of expediency and profit. So far, I have tried to be faithful to my baptismal wow. It is not I who have changed, but my church. It does no longer resemble the church I originally joined nearly seven decades ago. Fortunately, we are still faithful regarding the sacredness of the Sabbath, the state of the death, and so on. This is why I am still a member.

Well; atleast your last paragraph reveals that i am right. You do have other issues with the Church; and which you bring into this.

A few posts ago, you had accused me of not reading your "dissertation," and I would like to set the record straight on that first. I would like to know how you can possibly know that - just because you don't like an answer I give? FYI I have copied the entire document from your web site, turned it into a PDF document, and made proper tags in the margin so I can click on each title and have the content show in same screen. I did this for faster and easier comparison. And, I cannot, at this point change my mind on anything I have said so far.

You make reference above to spending "thousands of hours and mortgaging your home;" as if, like your "degree" this would bolster your case somehow, but it does not. I am only interested in what's right here. As are many others.

You tried to convince us all here that only 1% of the "references" for your "dissertation" were derived from The Heritage Room," yet; we can note that in one chapter alone, which I just finished looking at, you have 50% of the "references" from your own forum and web site! Of course, this only adds to the "scholarly" nature of it, eh? Some chapters, it is more. We could go through them all one by one and discuss just how available much of your reference base is to the general public, but I think people can see that for themselves. I won't waste my time there.

Nic, you do bring up a valid point re INDIVIDUAL Adventists or Adventist institutions who have made the unfortunate choice of supporting abortions, or performing them. They are wrong. Period. I have never once said that I support such evil. Quite the opposite. But what I am saying is that I don't see it as the right thing to do when someone such as yourself sees all this and just starts accusing the Church, as a collective whole, of being "pro-abortion," or "pro-choice;" and of things like "genocide." That would be like saying that because Koresh was an Adventist, then all Adventists must be like him. And there are lots of people who actually believe that now. The minute you start accusing the entire Church, and the General Conference, of supporting abortions, the way you have here, and in your dissertation, you fall into The Catholic Church camp on this issue. Your position echoes their's perfectly. Is their position somehow better because you are an Adventist and you have adopted it? And on that note; would you allow for any form of the "exceptions" named in the official Conference guidelines? (I don't approve of certain of those exceptions).

But, the Church guidelines are clear. There is no room for doubt here. Their major focus is on the preventative end of this. It does not support "elective" abortions. And this seems to be what you are really against, but then so am I. I am not sure how you can argue about that; but I am sure you will. I have 14 years experience in nursing, and to me; the whole area of "exceptions" could definitely be revamped; but this does not make the Church out to be in the position you have portrayed them as. You should not attack the Church like you are. LOL, you will need to mortgage a second house if you keep it up, and if you live long enough to keep it up, to that extent. You have a little website on the go already; why not use it to get some education and awareness going that would accomplish the Conference Guidelines goals of prevention? You should strengthen whats right instead of working against it so. LOL, YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH HOUSES TO KEEP THIS THING GOING!

I don't think that Andrew Jackson University is an Adventist institution; and not that that is wrong for you to attend there because of; but you might want to consider carefully how their "apologetics" course, which you claim to have included in your degree has affected your dissertation, AND your views on the Adventist Church.

Others on this thread are correct when they say that your work is nothing new and that discussions on this topic have always taken place; your work has not been responsible for kindling some great flame on that count. There are many who have gone before you.

[Outta Here]

Aubrey,

I think that you need to read my previous posting dealing with this with a little bit more care. If you think that I broke any of the AJU rules for graduation and should not have been granted the degree, you need to contact the university and ask for an explanation. They were acting under the supervision of the accredited committee and I was not the only student who was allowed to graduate under the online terms of the university. And remember that there exist a number of differences between a regular university program and an online program. An online program does not require physical presence at the university campus for any of the learning activities connected with the granting of a degree.

Now, Aubrey, isn’t it time that we dealt with the real issue before us? Do you disagree with the heart of my research? Do you think that I was wrong when I suggested that the Adventist Church has deviated from the clear pro-life attitude of the early Adventist pioneers? Why have you persistently tried to avoid this basic question? It is the topic of this blog after all. Can you tell us where you stand on this core issue?

Nic, you also may need to read my previous posts with more care. I do not think that you broke any of the AJU rules for graduation. It is the validity of the university itself that is in question. Why would a non-fully accredited university grant a PhD? That seems a bit shady to me, and illegitimate.

Would you go to an internist who received his MD from a non-fully accredited university?

The question at hand: do I disagree with the the heart of your research? No, but neither do I agree with it. I have not bothered to read your research.

I have stated previously in this thread that it does not matter to me if the Adventist church has deviated from the original attitudes of the early Adventist pioneers. It is my opinion that no entity, other than God Himself, has the right to judge a human decision when it regards meting out eternal consequences.

I disagree with a number of Adventist positions. This is one of them.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

re: V. THE GREAT CONTROVERSY

Nic, none of the hyperlinks to Ministry Magazine that you included are working. They take me to a page stating:

404 File Not Found

The file you requested /docs/MIN/MIN1971-03/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=3 could not be found. The files may have been moved by the publisher to a different spot. You'll need to find out, so the correct hyperlinks can be included.

Also, citing your own website is questionable.

Quote:

III. A PRO-LIFE HERO

"Doss never issued a public statement about abortion, but given his respect for human life, and his willingness to risk his own life in order to save the lives of others, it might be proper to assume that, had he lived in our time, he would likely be willing to defend the life of the unborn. "

Desmond T. Doss’ position on the sacredness of human life: Pro-life.

You cannot assume something not in evidence. Doss may well have been pro-choice. We will never know since he has passed away.

[Nic Samojluk]

Aubrey,

Thanks for clarifying a few details about your non-position on the issue of abortion. In your posting, you made the following observation:

Quote:

I do not think that you broke any of the AJU rules for graduation. It is the validity of the university itself that is in question. Why would a non-fully accredited university grant a PhD? That seems a bit shady to me, and illegitimate.

Not fully accredited? Did you miss my previous posting where I did address this? AJU does claim to be fully accredited in their web site. What happened is that the university decided to drop the Ph.D. program for some unknown to me reason. My current guess is that it might have proved to be unprofitable. This was done under the advice of the accrediting committee. The important detail is that those who were in the program were granted time to complete the program and to graduate. We were fully informed in advance that the program would be discontinued. What is wrong with this? Notice their claim:

Quote:

"Andrew Jackson University caters to the needs of online learners. Certificates of proficiency and accredited online degree programs provide the flexibility you need to complete your degree with tuition that won’t break the bank." http://www.aju.edu/Programs/programs_main.asp

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged,

Thanks for your lengthy answer. I would like to respond to some of the comments you made:

Quote:

Well; at least your last paragraph reveals that i am right. You do have other issues with the Church; and which you bring into this.

The issues I have with my church are directly connected with the teachings and praxis where the Adventist has departed from the church I joined almost seven decades ago and from the clear attitudes of the early Adventist pioneers. Is this wrong? I have been tried to be faithful to the sacred principles of the church I joined many years ago. My loyalty is to the original church I joined, not to the new version of it!

Quote:

You tried to convince us all here that only 1% of the "references" for your "dissertation" were derived from The Heritage Room," yet; we can note that in one chapter alone, which I just finished looking at, you have 50% of the "references" from your own forum and web site! Of course, this only adds to the "scholarly" nature of it, eh?

The chapter you are referring to was included under the suggestion of my major AJU professor. She told me that it was proper to include what I had written before on this topic. If you believe that this was unwise, you will have to talk to her. Now, what does this have to do with the “less than one percent of data I gathered from the LLU Library Heritage Room?

Quote:

But what I am saying is that I don't see it as the right thing to do when someone such as yourself sees all this and just starts accusing the Church, as a collective whole, of being "pro-abortion," or "pro-choice;" and of things like "genocide." That would be like saying that because Koresh was an Adventist, then all Adventists must be like him.

Suppose that David Koresh had been a regular member of the Adventist Church, and imagine if his ideas had been condoned by the General Conference and included in a document similar to the Guidelines on Abortion. Would you then argue that the church had nothing to do with his teachings? The example you have chosen does not support your argument!

By the way, when I blame the church for the status quo regarding the abortion issue, I am talking about those who thanks to their influence supported the church’s deviation from the original pro-life attitude into a pro-choice one. I am glad that you are examining my dissertation. If you persist in doing this, you will discover that, based on the data I analyzed, it seems that two thirds of those who expressed their opinion in our literary mediums between 1970 and 2006 were on the pro-life side; while only one third supported the pro-choice position.

What happened is that the power to decide was in the hands of that one third segment of Adventists and they prevailed in imposing their minority views on the denomination. The power to determine the position of the church was granted to the Loma Linda University. This was akin to granting the tobacco industry the right to regulate everything concerning the production, advertising and sale of cigarettes. There was a conflict of interest which the church ignored.

Do I blame the entire church for this situation? Nonsense! I blame that one third which is responsible for the church’s deviation from the example set by the early Adventist pioneers.

Quote:

Their major focus is on the preventative end of this. It does not support "elective" abortions. And this seems to be what you are really against, but then so am I. I am not sure how you can argue about that; but I am sure you will.

If your argument is right, then what is the church doing to stop or prevent Adventist hospitals from providing elective abortions to their patients? The job of physicians has always been to save the lives of their patients—not to kill them! The blood of those innocent victims is claiming for justice. I believe that in this respect we have a dereliction of duty by the church.

Quote:

I don't think that Andrew Jackson University is an Adventist institution; and not that that is wrong for you to attend there because of; but you might want to consider carefully how their "apologetics" course, which you claim to have included in your degree has affected your dissertation, AND your views on the Adventist Church.

I think that in this respect you are making a wrong assumption. The course in apologetics dealt with the defense of the Christian faith regardless of any specific denomination. I learned nothing from said course about the topic of my dissertation.

Quote:

Others on this thread are correct when they say that your work is nothing new and that discussions on this topic have always taken place; your work has not been responsible for kindling some great flame on that count.

I already answered this objection. Perhaps you missed said posting. If you go back, you will find it. Twenty years ago the “Ministry” magazine reported that the topic of abortion was going ten to one when compared with any other topic being discussed in their publication. When the Guidelines on Abortion document was adopted by the church the magazine decided to drop the subject from consideration. Following this, I made many attempts to resurrect the dialogue, but no Adventist magazine would allow me to say even a word edgewise. Whatever got published was in defense of the pro-choice position of the church.

When “Adventist today” learned that I was about to get my dissertation approved, Dr. Ervin Taylor asked me to write an article about the topic, which they published. Then several Adventist websites began to publish blogs dealing with the subject. Was this a coincidence? I don’t know, and I don’t care who gets the credit. The truth is that today I am having a hard time keeping up with everything that is being discussed about the abortion issue among Adventists. You can draw your own conclusions about this.

[Nic Samojluk]

Pam,

Thanks for alerting me to the fact that those links are not working. This sounds very fishy! I would seriously question the reason for making the pages of our official magazine unavailable to our Adventist readership. This is the second time that someone has notified me of this, and at first I assumed that there was some kind of temporary electronic impediment. The fact that this situation persists suggest that this is not the result of an accident but that it was done for a purpose. Of course, perhaps I should not be jumping the gun.

I did foresee the possibility that the links might some day be unavailable. This is the reason I documented the source the hard way. You may have to avail yourself of an Adventist library in order to verify the sources. By the way, I did post the last date those links were accessed by me. This is standard practice because everybody knows that what you see on the Internet today may be swallowed by a black hole the next minute. This is the reason we have libraries with books on their shelves.

Perhaps the online location of the Ministry archive material was moved for a reason unconnected with a desire to make my work harder. I need to investigate this. My problem is that I can’t find the time to do everything that needs to be done. I can hardly keep up with answering all the comments and arguments surrounding this issue. I am merely doing my best, and I do not have the funds to hire secretarial help.

The observation you made about Desmond T. Doss’ attitude towards abortion is a valid one. With him, as with many others, I had to take an educated guess, and I am not vouching for the accuracy of said guestimate. When surveys are made, there is always a margin of error. They take the best sample of the population they can given the circumstances. Besides, people do alter their opinion sometimes. What they believed today may not mirror what they believe later on.

This is the reason for taking a large sample in order to minimize the chance of major errors. My reason for attributing a pro-life attitude to Desmond Doss is as follows: He was ready to die for his respect for the right to life even of those who were determined to kill him; he was living at a time when abortion was considered to be a violation of God’s law by society. My guess could be theoretically wrong, but this is rather unlikely. Do not forget that my objective was not to land on the moon. When you deal with surveys and with historical facts, you are forced to take the best guess you can. This is why I made the following disclaimer on my dissertation:

Quote:

It should be understood that the attitude of many Adventists is rather fluid, and that what they have expressed in the past, does not necessarily reflect their current position on abortion today. This is illustrated by the fact that some individuals who were labeled as pro-choice on the basis of some of their writings were re-labeled as pro-life later on based on additional writings they published on a different date or venue. http://sdaforum.com/page116.html

I hope this helps! If you keep reading the material, you will find many additional reasons for believing that my work does not even come close to the strict scientific requirements of hard science. That was not my purpose. I do welcome constructive criticism and my hope is that someone else will take the time to do follow up studies in order to either confirm or disconfirm my original thesis.

[Overaged]

Overaged,

Thanks for your lengthy answer. I would like to respond to some of the comments you made:

quote] Well; at least your last paragraph reveals that i am right. You do have other issues with the Church; and which you bring into this. /quote]

The issues I have with my church are directly connected with the teachings and praxis where the Adventist has departed from the church I joined almost seven decades ago and from the clear attitudes of the early Adventist pioneers. Is this wrong? I have been tried to be faithful to the sacred principles of the church I joined many years ago. My loyalty is to the original church I joined, not to the new version of it!

quote] You tried to convince us all here that only 1% of the "references" for your "dissertation" were derived from The Heritage Room," yet; we can note that in one chapter alone, which I just finished looking at, you have 50% of the "references" from your own forum and web site! Of course, this only adds to the "scholarly" nature of it, eh? /quote]

The chapter you are referring to was included under the suggestion of my major AJU professor. She told me that it was proper to include what I had written before on this topic. If you believe that this was unwise, you will have to talk to her. Now, what does this have to do with the “less than one percent of data I gathered from the LLU Library Heritage Room?

I can see that you have definitely applied yourself diligently to the non-Adventist apologetics techniques, to determine Adventist truth. As I said; it would be very interesting to look into how that course has actually affected your work, and what you write. You say the exact same things as Catholics and anti-Adventists have been saying to me.

The issues you have with your Church, when added to your dissertation, are simply the prodromal stage of an outright assault, and it changes the abortion question entirely from the real situation at hand. There are people in the Church trying to do something about this the right way.

This percentage of info you keep referring to is debateable at best; and any specific figure is not important to what I said. My point remains that you use as a springboard "references" that are either not easily accessible or not easily verifiable, (or both), by the general public. This is a typical "apologetics" ploy to give the appearance of credence where there is none; where there is only a desire to attack; and be part of the problem, rather than the solution.

You are part of the problem too my friend.

[Outta Here]

A doctoral degree from AJU in your time frame would have been accredited by the Distance Education and Training Council as recognized by the U.S. Department of Education, but not recognized by the Council for Higher Education Accreditation.

In my opinion, to be fully accredited means to be accepted by every accreditation council--both regional and national--as fully legitimate.

ntmom

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged,

Thanks for your answer. I will try to respond to some of the things you stated.

Quote:

I can see that you have definitely applied yourself diligently to the non-Adventist apologetics techniques, to determine Adventist truth. As I said; it would be very interesting to look into how that course has actually affected your work, and what you write. You say the exact same things as Catholics and anti-Adventists have been saying to me.

Unfortunately, you have a terrible miss understanding of what the course in apologetics entails. I would suggest that you buy the book “Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell, which is the textbook used for the course. Read it, and if you find that it contains what you are imagining, then let me know. It deals mainly with the reliability of the Holy Bible and the testimony of the Gospels. It uses the discoveries of archeology to confirm what we find in the Bible. Your criticism of the course is unfortunately out of sync with reality. The book contains zero reference to the Adventist faith. I feel sorry for you!

Quote:

This percentage of info you keep referring to is debatable at best;

Instead of jumping to unwarranted conclusion, why don’t you present the evidence for your criticism?

Quote:

My point remains that you use as a springboard "references" that are either not easily accessible or not easily verifiable, (or both), by the general public.

If I were you, I would take the time to submit a sample of references which I have misused or misconstrued. I have documented every quotation I have used. Please take the time to verify things by yourself. You have no foundation for critiquing what you have not carefully examined. You rely entirely on your imagination. Give me some solid evidence for a change. Until you do this, your criticism will not be worth a dime!

[Overaged]

Overaged,

Thanks for your answer. I will try to respond to some of the things you stated.

quote]I can see that you have definitely applied yourself diligently to the non-Adventist apologetics techniques, to determine Adventist truth. As I said; it would be very interesting to look into how that course has actually affected your work, and what you write. You say the exact same things as Catholics and anti-Adventists have been saying to me.

Your criticism of the course is unfortunately out of sync with reality. The book contains zero reference to the Adventist faith. I feel sorry for you!

You rely entirely on your imagination. Give me some solid evidence for a change. Until you do this, your criticism will not be worth a dime!

[Overaged]

/quote]She doesn't need to "redeem" herself to you or to anyone else here. /quote]

I have made peace with Pam. Do not try to resurrect what has died an has been buried!

That may be; but we can only reply to what is posted on this forum. Don't post it if you don't want a reply.

[BobRyan]

The references below give a good summary of the historic SDA position on this topic -- no matter who had a Ph.D back when they were making those statements.

From:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post324846

Quote:

If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them. {2SM 429-430}

Selected Messages, Vol. 2 (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1958), 429-430.

Quote:

Quote:

Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life. Precious are its opportunities, and earnestly should they be improved. Once lost, they are gone forever. [8]

Human life, which God alone could give, must be sacredly guarded. [9]

Children derive life from their parents, and yet it is through the creative power of God that your children have life, for God is the Life-giver. [10]

It is important to notice as well her many statements dealing with the relevance of prenatal care and the influence of the pregnant woman’s diet, general health, mental attitude, and self control on the development of the unborn.

Quote:

Women who possess principle, and who are well instructed, will not depart from simplicity of diet at this time of all others. They will consider that another life is dependent upon them and will be careful in all their habits and especially in diet. [11]

Every drop of strong drink taken [by a mother] to gratify appetite endangers the physical, mental and moral health of her child, and is a direct sin against the Creator. [12]

The effect of prenatal influence is by many parents looked upon as a matter of little moment; but heaven does not so regard it. . . .Two lives are depending upon her, and her wishes should be tenderly regarded. . . . By the command of God Himself, she is placed under the most solemn obligation to exercise self-control. [13]

If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them. [14]

[8]Ellen G. White. Ministry of Healing (Mountain View, California: Pacific Press Publishing Association, 1958), 397.

[9]White. Patriarchs and Prophets (Mountain View, California: Pacific Press Publishing Association, 1958), 516.

[10]White. The Adventist Home (Nashville, Tennessee: Southern Publishing Association, 1952), 280.

[11]Ibid., 257.

[12]White. Ministry of Healing, 373.

[13]Ibid., 372-373.

[14]White. Selected Messages, Vol. 2 (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1958), 429-430.

http://sdaforum.com/page102.html

[Overaged]

The references below give a good summary of the historic SDA position on this topic -- no matter who had a Ph.D back when they were making those statements.

It is NOT the position of the Pioneers which is being questioned here.

[doug yowell]

There are people in the Church trying to do something about this the right way.

Name 3