Sin destroy's itself...

[Guest]

I didn't mean to encourage you by my comment. I take it back.

[wayfinder]

Jeremiah 15:6

"You who have forsaken Me," declares the LORD, "You keep going backward. So I will stretch out My hand against you and destroy you; I am tired of relenting!

Ezekiel 5:16

'When I send against them the deadly arrows of famine which were for the destruction of those whom I will send to destroy you, then I will also intensify the famine upon you and break the staff of bread.

Ezekiel 25:7

therefore, behold, I have stretched out My hand against you and I will give you for spoil to the nations. And I will cut you off from the peoples and make you perish from the lands; I will destroy you. Thus you will know that I am the LORD."

Ezekiel 34:7-16

7 Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 8 "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "surely because My flock has become a prey, My flock has even become food for all the beasts of the field for lack of a shepherd, and My shepherds did not search for My flock, but {rather} the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed My flock; 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD: 10 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand My sheep from them and make them cease from feeding sheep. So the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore, but I will deliver My flock from their mouth, so that they will not be food for them.'"" 11 For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 " As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day. 13 "I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land. 14 "I will feed them in a good pasture, and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel. There they will lie down on good grazing ground and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 "I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest," declares the Lord GOD. 16 "I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them with judgment.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I didn't mean to encourage you by my comment. I take it back.

What's so funny about that Richard? Be careful that you are not found among the scoffers of the last days.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

sky, what's the connection between the cross and the principles of destruction that we've been discussing?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

What's so funny about that Richard? Be careful that you are not found among the scoffers of the last days.

sky

Are you callin' ME a scoffer? Just wanted to clarify ...

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnatt

This makes it clear that the the forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere, are not holy angels but unholy ones.

It will not be evil angels who destroy themselves, and Satan. Or even the wicked for that matter.

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. {EW 294}

[Guest]

Yes they will be behind the time of trouble for the most part, that's right.

[LifeHiscost]

Perhaps it would be good to look at the experience of Job, when he was under assault by the enemy of all souls. I don't think it conflicts with the writings of Ellen White at all. However it reveals exactly where the responsibility is accepted for all evil, which I believe was shown when our Father allowed His Son to die on the cross so that the worst of us would be able to escape eternal death for the evil that exists in ourselves. The life of Christ goes at least one further than the story of Job though, in that it showed no fault in the One Who had complete control, despite all the circumstances that speak to the contrary in the progression of calamity or evil.

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15 KJV

"So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”......

Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. And he said:

“ Naked I came from my mother’s womb,

And naked shall I return there.

The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away;

Blessed be the name of the LORD.”

In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong. "Job 1:9-12,20=22 NKJV

"So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.

Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!”

But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips."Job 2:4-6,9,10 NKJV

Notice under these severe circumstances, Job didn't accuse satan of anything. In fact he ascribed all the calamities to the God of heaven, yet the Word clearly says he did not sin with his lips, which would have been the case if he had spoken a false teaching (doctrine) in order to remove God from any false accusations.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

This is the true picture of the character of God.

The truth of this is stated in a paragraph from Prophets and Kings, 176. "Christ will never abandon those for whom He has died. We may leave Him and be overwhelmed with temptation, but Christ can never turn from one for whom He has paid the ransom of His own life."

In view of the fact that Christ died for all men, this statement is saying that it is impossible for Christ to turn away from anyone. Men turn away from God. God cannot turn away from men.

That is impossible.

"Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son. For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the LORD will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly." Deuteronomy 7:3,4 NKJV

For consistency between the two sources above, it is necessary to realize the PP source is speaking of a people who will, because of Christ's efforts for them, at last yield to His entreaties, not to those who at last turn away from Him.

This Scripture below identifies who He died for, while the second identifies those He at last turns from, to return to those who yield to His entreaties.

" For Christ died for sins once for all..." 1 Peter 3:18 AMP

"“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate"

The underlined describes Jerusalem's house

as being left. Who left?

Blessings!

[Twilight]

deleted - wrong post.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Have you not read any of the statements that show that this is not the only principle that is to be taken into consideration?

I've written quite a lot regarding this. You're expressing the idea that we should interpret based on a principle like this:

"If inspiration says God did something violent, we should understand that He did, unless somewhere else it tells us that He didn't."

I don't think that's a very good approach. I think a better one is to apply the principles we learn from certain events and apply them to other similar ones.

Regarding the GC 614 sentences that you quote, why not consider the context? Here's the context:

Quote:

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old.

This is what is written immediately preceding what you quoted. This makes it clear that the the forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere, are not holy angels but unholy ones. When the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn, and the angels of God cease to hold back the winds of strife, there is no protection from whom? Holy angels? No; from Satan.

I have absolutely no issue with this at all pnatt. :-)

What I have issue with is where it explicitly states that fire comes from God and that is changed to: "fire comes from man".

Or:

God told Saul to kill the Amelakites becomese "God does not order destruction at His command".

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Lutz, it is sad to say but this is something Mrs. White said some cannot see and will never understand. It is a truth that is sealed up to them but which the Lord has opened to those who will see and are ready to understand.

sky

Where does Ellen White state this Sky?

I think you are misrepresenting her writings here.

Please supply the quote to support this point.

And please, a quote in context.

Mark

[Twilight]

Quote:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest.

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I have noticed this pattern Richard:

Point: God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

Objection: This text says He does.

Response: You are ignoring light (here is a proof text).

Objection: But what about this text?

Point: God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

Objection: But you have not considered this text, just ignored it.

Response: You are ignoring light (here is a proof text).

These are the two positions represented over and over.

1. God does not destroy (here is a proof text).

2. You are rejecting light (here is a proof text).

There is not an open discussion of the issues or principles but a stating of a position, then a condemnation (by some), when that position is challenged.

Truth can be weighed and examined.

Only error needs a fanatical blindness to defend it...

Mark :-(

I've noticed this pattern:

Question asked. Question ignored.

Question asked again. Question ignored again. etc.

For example, this one:

Quote:

It seems the idea being expressed here is that God is losing the Great Controversy, and will continue to lose it, until He resorts to force and violence to win it. He'll win it, eventually, because He is stronger than anyone else, and so can apply greater force and violence than anyone else.

I have more to say on this topic, but before going on, I'd like to make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly.

I never did get an answer to this.

Another question I've asked is why God would use force and violence, the tools of the enemy, to solve the sin problem, given that these tools form no part of His government. For example:

Quote:

The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government...Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 22, 759)

I don't see how this could be understood in a qualified. That is, I don't see how this statement could be taken to mean that sometimes, or usually, God doesn't use force or compelling power, but sometimes He does. If it's contrary to the principle of God's government, and His principles are this order, how could He ever use it? [/quote']

The first question I refused because I felt it was manipulative, I had already answered, but I rejected this as an attempt to draw out a "certain" answer.

In other words, it was a leading question.

The second point has been answered over and over.

Again:

Context of the quote.

Consider all quotes that also disagree with the quote presented to gain an insight into the general position of EGW.

Mark

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Lutz, it is sad to say but this is something Mrs. White said some cannot see and will never understand. It is a truth that is sealed up to them but which the Lord has opened to those who will see and are ready to understand.

sky

Where does Ellen White state this Sky?

I think you are misrepresenting her writings here.

Please supply the quote to support this point.

And please, a quote in context.

Mark

Good question Mark, I too would like to see that quote. Good luck on getting him to quote something in context.

[skyblue888]

sky, what's the connection between the cross and the principles of destruction that we've been discussing?

pnatt, thanks for asking

I will share something on that as soon as I can.

[pnattmbtc]

You're saying you can take a couple of texts and know all there is too know about the wrath of God. How simplistic. What confidence you have in being able to plumb the depths of scripture.

I don't have that kind of confidence in myself, much less you.

I don't understand a post like this. First of all, whom are you addressing? Secondly, what was said that caused you to respond in such a way? Thirdly, wouldn't it be better to make the same point in a less personal way? For example:

"It appears to me you are taking a simplistic approach here. I don't think all the facets regarding the wrath of God can be covered by just a couple of texts. For example, here is a text that brings out an aspect you haven't covered ..."

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

You're saying you can take a couple of texts and know all there is too know about the wrath of God. How simplistic. What confidence you have in being able to plumb the depths of scripture.

I don't have that kind of confidence in myself, much less you.

I don't understand a post like this. First of all, whom are you addressing? Secondly, what was said that caused you to respond in such a way? Thirdly, wouldn't it be better to make the same point in a less personal way? For example:

"It appears to me you are taking a simplistic approach here. I don't think all the facets regarding the wrath of God can be covered by just a couple of texts. For example, here is a text that brings out an aspect you haven't covered ..."

It was directed at me. I told him that I can understand how God destroys from understanding His wrath from the many examples in the scriptures. And also from what Paul wrote in Romans 1. That God also never changes and His anger/wrath is a part of His character. Gods character never changes.

It is ok though, I did not take offence.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I don't understand a post like this. First of all, whom are you addressing? Secondly, what was said that caused you to respond in such a way? Thirdly, wouldn't it be better to make the same point in a less personal way? For example:

"It appears to me you are taking a simplistic approach here. I don't think all the facets regarding the wrath of God can be covered by just a couple of texts. For example, here is a text that brings out an aspect you haven't covered ..."

[/quote']

It was directed at me. I told him that I can understand how God destroys from understanding His wrath from the many examples in the scriptures. And also from what Paul wrote in Romans 1. That God also never changes and His anger/wrath is a part of His character. Gods character never changes.

It is ok though, I did not take offence.

Thank you Lutz, none was intended. What would I do without pnat here to tell me what I SHOULD have posted?

[skyblue888]

"The mystery of the cross explains all other mysteries. In the light that streams from Calvary, the attributes of God which had filled us with fear and awe appear beautiful and attractive. Mercy, tenderness, and parental love are seen to blend with holiness, justice, and power. While we behold the majesty of His throne, high and lifted up, we see His character in its gracious manifestations, and comprehend, as never before, the significance of that endearing title, 'Our Father.' " The Great Controversy, 642.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Thank you Lutz, none was intended. What would I do without pnat here to tell me what I SHOULD have posted?

How do you think you should post, Richard?

[BobRyan]

"The mystery of the cross explains all other mysteries. In the light that streams from Calvary, the attributes of God which had filled us with fear and awe appear beautiful and attractive. Mercy, tenderness, and parental love are seen to blend with holiness, justice, and power. While we behold the majesty of His throne, high and lifted up, we see His character in its gracious manifestations, and comprehend, as never before, the significance of that endearing title, 'Our Father.' " The Great Controversy, 642.

Indeed. That is a good example of God SOLVING the problem of sin -- instead of sin destroying itself.

God causes the wrath of God to fall upon Christ as our "substitute" -- in our place.

=============================

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DA chpt 74 Gethsemane

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01323.htm

"Tarry ye here," He said, "and watch with Me." {DA 686.2}

He went a little distance from them--not so far but that they could both see and hear Him--and fell prostrate upon the ground. He felt that by sin He was being separated from His Father. The gulf was so broad, so black, so deep, that His spirit shuddered before it. This agony He must not exert His divine power to escape. As man He must suffer the consequences of man's sin. As man He must endure the wrath of God against transgression. {DA 686.3}

Christ was now standing in a different attitude from that in which He had ever stood before. His suffering can best be described in the words of the prophet, "Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, and against the man that is My fellow, saith the Lord of hosts." Zech. 13:7. As the substitute and surety for sinful man, Christ was suffering under divine justice. He saw what justice meant. Hitherto He had been as an intercessor for others; now He longed to have an intercessor for Himself. {DA 686.4}

As Christ felt His unity with the Father broken up, He feared that in His human nature He would be unable to endure the coming conflict with the powers of darkness. In the wilderness of temptation the destiny of the human race had been at stake. Christ was then conqueror. Now the tempter had come for the last fearful struggle. For this he had been preparing during the three years of Christ's ministry. Everything was at stake with him. If he failed here, his hope of mastery was lost; the kingdoms of the world would finally become Christ's; he himself would be overthrown and cast out. But if Christ could be overcome, the earth would become Satan's kingdom, and the human race would be forever in his power. With the issues of the conflict before Him, Christ's soul was filled with dread of separation from God. Satan told Him that if He became the surety for a sinful world, the separation would be eternal. He would be identified with Satan's kingdom, and would nevermore be one with God. {DA 686.5}

And what was to be gained by this sacrifice? How hopeless appeared the guilt and ingratitude of men! In its hardest features Satan pressed the situation upon the Redeemer: The people who claim to be above all others in temporal and spiritual advantages have rejected You. They are seeking to destroy You, the foundation, the center and seal of the promises made to them as a peculiar people. One of Your own disciples, who has listened to Your instruction, and has been among the foremost in church activities, will betray You. One of Your most zealous followers will deny You. All will forsake You. Christ's whole being abhorred the thought. That those whom He had undertaken to save, those whom He loved so much, should unite in the plots of Satan, this pierced His soul. The conflict was terrible. Its measure was the guilt of His nation, of His accusers and betrayer, the guilt of a world lying in wickedness. The sins of men weighed heavily upon Christ, and the sense of God's wrath against sin was crushing out His life. {DA 687.1}

Behold Him contemplating the price to be paid for the human soul. In His agony He clings to the cold ground, as if to prevent Himself from being drawn farther from God. The chilling dew of night falls upon His prostrate form, but He heeds it not. From His pale lips comes the bitter cry, "O My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me." Yet even now He adds, "Nevertheless not as I will, but as Thou wilt." {DA 687.2}

The human heart longs for sympathy in suffering. This longing Christ felt to the very depths of His being. In the supreme agony of His soul He came to His disciples with a yearning desire to hear some words of comfort from those whom He had so often blessed and comforted, and shielded in sorrow and distress. The One who had always had words of sympathy for them was now suffering superhuman agony, and He longed to know that they were praying for Him and for themselves.

688

How dark seemed the malignity of sin! Terrible was the temptation to let the human race bear the consequences of its own guilt, while He stood innocent before God. If He could only know that His disciples understood and appreciated this, He would be strengthened. {DA 687.3}

Rising with painful effort, He staggered to the place where He had left His companions. But He "findeth them asleep." Had He found them praying, He would have been relieved. Had they been seeking refuge in God, that satanic agencies might not prevail over them, He would have been comforted by their steadfast faith. But they had not heeded the repeated warning, "Watch and pray." At first they had been much troubled to see their Master, usually so calm and dignified, wrestling with a sorrow that was beyond comprehension. They had prayed as they heard the strong cries of the sufferer. They did not intend to forsake their Lord, but they seemed paralyzed by a stupor which they might have shaken off if they had continued pleading with God. They did not realize the necessity of watchfulness and earnest prayer in order to withstand temptation. {DA 688.1}

[skyblue888]

The wrath of God at the cross was that God had no choice but to abandon Jesus to Satan and his angels. This was "the horror of darkness" that enshrouded Jesus. He died of a heart attack weighed with the sins of the whole world and, separated from His Father, and surrounded by all the host of hell.

sky