Hearing the voice of God

[LifeHiscost]

[:"red"] "For He is our God,

And we are the people of His pasture,

And the sheep of His hand.

Today, if you will hear His voice:

"Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, [/] Psalms 95:7,8

[:"red"] " Hear now what the LORD says... " [/] Micah 6:1

[:"red"] " and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out....the sheep follow him, for they know his voice....My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me....And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" [/]

John 10

[:"red"] "Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

"Today, if you will hear His voice,

Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, " [/] Heb 3:7,8

Ideally, is it good to let the Word filter through a polluted vessel before we come to a conclusion about what God is trying to say to us? Or should we expect the Holy Spirit to speak to us directly as we come in contact with the Word?

Lift Jesus up!!

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Ideally, is it good to let the Word filter through a polluted vessel before we come to a conclusion about what God is trying to say to us? Or should we expect the Holy Spirit to speak to us directly as we come in contact with the Word?"

Life, anytime the HS speaks to us directly, that word is filtered through us, our mind, and experences--a polluted vesses, so to speak.

[DaveM1936]

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Ideally, is it good to let the Word filter through a polluted vessel before we come to a conclusion about what God is trying to say to us? Or should we expect the Holy Spirit to speak to us directly as we come in contact with the Word?

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Having interacted with many Christians over the years, I have become suspecious of anyone who comes to me, saying: "The Lord (Holy Spirit) impressed me to ....." I personally do not rely on impressions. Satan can make them also. I never depend on myself to be able to be able to tell the difference.

The only two sources I trust completely are the Bible and the EGW.

Your friend,

Dave M\

[Amelia]

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The Lord (Holy Spirit) impressed me to ....." I personally do not rely on impressions. Satan can make them also.

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How do you justify this statement with the writings of EGW?

[Nicodema]

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Re: "Ideally, is it good to let the Word filter through a polluted vessel before we come to a conclusion about what God is trying to say to us? Or should we expect the Holy Spirit to speak to us directly as we come in contact with the Word?"

... anytime the HS speaks to us directly, that word is filtered through us, our mind, and experences--a polluted vessel, so to speak.

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Gregory has answered here as I would have done myself. That is the dilemma I face with such a question -- is my own mind any clearer a guide to hearing the Holy Spirit and/or interpreting the word of God than someone else's? Especially considering I spent so much time in the world and the occult, etc., a fact which I have actually witnessed cruel brothers and sisters attempt to use against me to manipulate and bind my conscience for their pleasure or convenience to buy their statements and teachings rather than sort things out as best I can in the Word. And not to mention, how does this question impact the dilemma when a brother or sister is making God's word out to mean things that "clearly" seem in error to me?

[Nicodema]

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I personally do not rely on impressions. Satan can make them also. I never depend on myself to be able to be able to tell the difference.

The only two sources I trust completely are the Bible and the EGW.

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I agree this is wise counsel. But neither one can be opened to find the answer of whether you should return to school or not, for example, or whom you should marry. For private guidance we may not LEAN on impressions exclusively -- we should pray and seek wisdom and guidance from God -- but we have to have SOMETHING to let us know which is the way we are to walk in ... right?

[LifeHiscost]

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Life, anytime the HS speaks to us directly, that word is filtered through us, our mind, and experences--a polluted vesses, so to speak.

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[:"red"] "" [/]

Greg,

I should have clarified by asking whether other polluted vessels besides ourselves as filters, have a chance of making the Word more clear. If your answer is to be believed, it would almost lead one to conclude the Holy Spirit incapable of teaching Truth with clarity as each filter fogs the logic of Divinity. The more filters, the greater the incomprehension.

[:"red"] "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. " [/]

1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV

OTOH___

[:"red"] "Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day." [/] Psalm 25:5

[:"red"] "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" [/] John 16:13

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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The only two sources I trust completely are the Bible and the EGW.

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[:"blue"] (That would merit an amen!! However, trust is also what the members of the body of Christ exercise toward each other in order to find harmony and the building up of the body. LHC) [/]

I agree this is wise counsel. But neither one can be opened to find the answer of whether you should return to school or not, for example, or >>whom you should marry.<< For private guidance we may not LEAN on impressions exclusively -- we should pray and seek wisdom and guidance from God -- but>>> we have to have SOMETHING to let us know which is the way we are to walk in <<<... right?

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Re: >> << Having made a mess by choosing according to my best wisdom, it was a relief to take God at His Word, and live for the next 25 years, +or-, in marital bliss.

[:"red"] "Keep on asking and it will be given you; keep on seeking and you will find; keep on knocking [reverently] and [the door] will be opened to you.

For everyone who keeps on asking receives; and he who keeps on seeking finds; and to him who keeps on knocking, [the door] will be opened." [/] Matt 7:7,8

Re: >>> <<< I would say yes, and I am assured The Bible can only be understood by asking for the Holy Spirit's guidance as to understanding it.

[:"red"] "But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,

Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [that can bring a charge]." [/] Gal 5:22,23

Lift Jesus up!!

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "If your answer is to be believed, it would almost lead one to conclude the Holy Spirit incapable of teaching Truth with clarity as each filter fogs the logic of Divinity. The more filters, the greater the incomprehension."

Life, There is a lot of truth (but not 100%) in the above.

Here is what I beleive:

a) The reality of God, and eternal issues is so great that it is impossible for us to understand in 100% fullness. i.e. God is far beyind our comprehension in all areas.

God has to "dumb down", if you want to call it that, everything about eternal realities in order to give us a small picture of eternal realities.

c) The fact that we have any comprehension is a great miracle of God.

d) A wonder of salvation is that God is able to communicate to us at all in our human state. But, God has crossed that barrier and we can be confident in our salvation.

e) In our humanity we often reflect great arrogance in our presumption that we have more knowledge of God and eternity, than God has communicated to us.

LIfe, does the above make sense? Is it error?

Does it take away from one either salvation, or the assurance of salvation? I do not thilnk it does.

[Nicodema]

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I should have clarified by asking whether other polluted vessels besides ourselves as filters, have a chance of making the Word more clear.

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There is this to be considered: "in the multitude of counsellors there is wisdom" (not sure where but it's in scripture).

There is also however the balance, that Truth is never the popular course because the human heart is fickle and sin-riddled, and human beings in groups tend toward the lowest common denominators.

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If your answer is to be believed, it would almost lead one to conclude the Holy Spirit incapable of teaching Truth with clarity as each filter fogs the logic of Divinity. The more filters, the greater the incomprehension.

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Can't speak for Gregory of course, but that's why I mentioned it posing a "dilemma" for me. I do definitely believe the promises that state the Spirit of Truth is able to guide us into ALL Truth (John 16:13), and again, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7:17)

However, it might be worth considering the mystery of how the Holy Spirit operates as well: John 3:8 states, "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." The Spirit is that wind; we are but vessels through which She(kinah) plays beautiful notes of witness as She(kinah) wills, moving through like wind, from whence we know not, going where we know not. We know not, but we Trust, because we know in Whom we believe.

[DaveM1936]

Apparently, I am in the minority on the subject of following impressions. So let me give you the basis for my belief.

Ps 62:2: He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved. (KJV)

Ps 62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved. (KJV)

Ps 71:3: Be thou my strong habitation, whereunto I may continually resort: thou hast given commandment to save me; for thou art my rock and my fortress. (KJV)

Matt 7:24-27: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. (KJV)

1 Cor 10:4: And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (KJV)

All advice from humans, all impressions received, all doors that seem open, all appaently promptings of the Spirit must be judged by the Rock upon which my faith is build. I have not built my faith on impressions, advice, promptings. My faith is built on the Bible and EGW. I have no other foundation that is completely trustworthy.

Do I want to get married. Both the Bible and EGW furnish ample answers. What clothing should I wear. I can go to these same sources to find out if what I want to wear is what God would have me choose.

1 Cor 3:11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (KJV)

Matt 21:42: Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? (KJV)

I judge every impression I get, every adivce I received by what Jesus has told me in His word in through His prophet.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Nicodema]

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Having made a mess by choosing according to my best wisdom, it was a relief to take God at His Word, and live for the next 25 years, +or-, in marital bliss.

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But other than general guidelines the Scriptures do not tell us WHOM to marry. By general guidelines I mean things like "be not unequally yoked" which apply to all, but you won't open to Hezekiah 3:16 and find the NAME of your spouse-to-be written in invisible Spirit ink!

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[:"red"] "Keep on asking and it will be given you; keep on seeking and you will find; keep on knocking [reverently] and [the door] will be opened to you.

For everyone who keeps on asking receives; and he who keeps on seeking finds; and to him who keeps on knocking, [the door] will be opened." [/] Matt 7:7,8

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Amen, and remember how much He DELIGHTS to give us good gifts. Also "before they ask I will answer ..." (etc.)

[DaveM1936]

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But other than general guidelines the Scriptures do not tell us WHOM to marry. By general guidelines I mean things like "be not unequally yoked" which apply to all, but you won't open to Hezekiah 3:16 and find the NAME of your spouse-to-be written in invisible Spirit ink!

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At Battle Creek Adventist Academy many years ago, I would play a joke on my friends. I would make a comment about something that was supposidely in the bible (but was really not).

"Where do you find that?" I would be asked.

"In Hezekiah 2:4," I would answer.

Then I would wait with a smile on my face as my friend picked up his Bible and started looking for Hezekiah. Finally, he would ask, "I can't find Hezekiah. Where is it?"

And we would all laugh.

The Bible and the SOP give far more information on whom to marry and whom not to marry than the one criteria you gave. It sounds to me that you are insisting on depending on your own choices and impressions than on a safer frame of reference.

When Jesus was combating with Satan in the wilderness, He only used "thus saith the Lord". When contending with him over the body of Moses, He refused to argue. If we are to be saved, we must have a more solid foundation than what we think, choose, feel, or feel impressed.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Nicodema]

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The Bible and the SOP give far more information on whom to marry and whom not to marry than the one criteria you gave.

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I am aware of that, Brother. I just chose one example so as not to write a book. Assuming I had three good men for candidates who fit all criteria given, however, it still would not tell me which one is God's pick for me.

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It sounds to me that you are insisting on depending on your own choices and impressions than on a safer frame of reference.

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That is not the case, Brother. I have not suggested anywhere that we lean on our own understanding or impressions. To exaggerate the idea that I have into "insistence" is to wrong me with a false accusation, and an unwarranted one at that.

[LifeHiscost]

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LIfe, does the above make sense? Is it error?

Does it take away from one either salvation, or the assurance of salvation? I do not thilnk it does.

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Greg,

Only one man's opinion but I found each one of your points

true to the reality this side of our change. Especially in light of the following verses.

[:"red"] "....where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part... " [/] 1 Cor 13:8,9 NIV

[:"red"] For if any person thinks himself to be somebody [too important to condescend to shoulder another's load] when he is nobody [of superiority except in his own estimation], he deceives and deludes and cheats himself." [/] Galatians 6:3 AMP

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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Having made a mess by choosing according to my best wisdom, it was a relief to take God at His Word, and live for the next 25 years, +or-, in marital bliss.

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But other than general guidelines the Scriptures do not tell us WHOM to marry.

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I wish not to put you off, Nico, for I think your point is well taken and I hope to give some personal testimony that will identify that while God may not say the name, He definitely does say on occasion, [:"blue"] This is the man/woman! [/]

Hope you have a happy Sabbath.

Lift Jesus up!!

[Gregory Matthews]

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Life Said: "It sounds to me that you are insisting on depending on your own choices and impressions than on a safer frame of reference."

And Nico said in resposne: "That is not the case, Brother. I have not suggested anywhere that we lean on our own understanding or impressions. To exaggerate the idea that I have into "insistence" is to wrong me with a false accusation, and an unwarranted one at that."

I consider the above to be an inportant issue in communication. I often see that issue demonstrated here in Club Adventist. So, while I am illustrating it with Nico and Life, I actually apply it to many others.

Life began this dialogue with a simple statement as to how Nico had come accross. It was a statement as to how Nico was understood. The focus was actually on Life. E.g. I understand you as . . .?

When one makes a statement as to how they understand, there is an implication that the person making such a statement is asking the other to correct a misunderstanding. E.g. Life might be understood as saying: "Nico, you seem to be telling me . . ., please, correct me if I have misunderstood you."

Nico's response was a very typical repsonse. In effect, she essentially stated that Life had wronged her. In effect she stated that Life had falsely accused her, and exaragarated her position.

That position could be supported if Life had stated: You believe (or Nico believes) . . . " but, that is not what Life said. What Life said was focused on what Life understood about Nico. It was an invitation to clairfy, rather than accuse. It was asking to get together with a common understanding rather than divisive.

Folks, I may seem to be concentrating on Life and Nico. I really do not want to do so. This example is simply that of a common communication breakdown that often happens. It happens to me, and has occured with me here on CA. It is an issue that I am sensitive to. I focus on Life and Nico because it provides an excellent illustration of my point.

[Nicodema]

Gregory - just a nit: it was Dave, not Life (LHC), that engaged in that dialogue with me.

nico

[Well, I have never claimed perfection. And I often demonstrate that I am wrong--GM.]

[Nicodema]

And ... I apologize to you, Dave, for saying you had falsely accused me when you were asking me to clarify. In light of what Gregory has helped me see above, that must have been my defensiveness. I cannot always tell the difference so please be patient with me while I learn. And no, I'm not trying to suggest or insist we lean on our own understanding. My point has been that while the written word DOES contain many useful principles and criteria for helping us determine such things and make such decisions, it does NOT contain specificities of whom we are to marry or what we are to do with our lives. For example, I will never be able to open either Bible or SOP writings and read, "Nico, you are to become a nurse and spread the gospel to your patients that way." Or "Nico, you are to marry Julius Goodman on the fourth of January in year 2007 and not the equally-suited Benjamin Sweetfella."

[DaveM1936]

Thank-you for clarifying your point.

I must also say that I was leaving prayer out of the equation. When we have found all the information we can, then it is time to pray. After we have prayer, then we must get up from our knees and made a decision. In fact, I have come to believe that God, not wanting robots, is training us to learn how to make good choices to run our own lives. If we make a wrong choice, He is prepared to bring us back over the same ground so we can learn better.

I look at life as a school. I really don't think God is as interested in whether we make a wrong choice or a good one as He is in learning to lesson He is trying to teach. The person we need to be concerned with is the one who refuses to make any choices on his own.

Such people depend on preachers, politians, mates, teachers, friends, etc to make all their choices for them. God wants independent people who can think for themselves. When two such people come together, they form what is called a healthy relationship.

Your friend,

Dave M.

PS

Thank you Greg for helping us communicate better.

[Nicodema]

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...[some] people depend on preachers, politians, mates, teachers, friends, etc to make all their choices for them. God wants independent people who can think for themselves. When two such people come together, they form what is called a healthy relationship.

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Amen to that.

[LifeHiscost]

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Life Said: "It sounds to me that you are insisting on depending on your own choices and impressions than on a safer frame of reference."

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I see your point, Greg. But are you sure it was Life that said that?

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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Gregory - just a nit: it was Dave, not Life (LHC), that engaged in that dialogue with me.

nico

[Well, I have never claimed perfection. And I often demonstrate that I am wrong--GM.]

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Thanks for that clarification, Nico, and your response, Greg. But now we can more easily see how facts can get disturbingly confused from the most well intentioned people,

can't we?

Lift Jesus up!!

[100% correct. A veryy important point that they often do get confounded, as well as confused. And I do it also--GM.]

[LifeHiscost]

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But other than general guidelines the Scriptures do not tell us WHOM to marry.

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Nico,

Some may think it is good for the one who wishes to be independent, to make decisions for themselves. After having made the mistakes previously referred to, I determined I wanted no chance of making a mistake again, especially in so important a decision as marriage where one can spend years living under intolerable circumstances as a result of letting human judgement supercede Divine wisdom, especially in the area not immediately obvious.

Then I ran across a bit of wisdom that not only helped to give confidence for years of marital happiness, but also strengthened hope in various other areas of life.

[:"red"] "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." [/] Jer 10:23

Most of the community of believers that I am aware of seem not to believe that. In fact it seems the longer most individuals of the Christian faith remain safe in the fold, the less they believe that. My question is this. If we can make this essential point of none affect the longer we remain Christians, how many other items that we originally found to be true in the Word, can we feel as losing their meaning in practical application.

True we are to grow into maturity.

[:"red"] "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." [/]

1 Corinthians 13:11 KJV

But when does the time come when we can safely say, "I am so wise and understanding from my many years of abiding with the Lord, now I can travel safely without His guidance"?

God always gives me the freedom to make the final decision. But when we allow Him the final decision, are we safer or not?

[:"red"] "

"Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." [/] Matthew 18:3 NKJV

I dated maybe seven different individuals in which I came to the conclusion they would be persons I could live with happily. Each one I took to the Lord in prayer and told Him so. But I, with each one, asked God to make the final decision for me, as I did not trust my own wisdom. With each one, shortly after asking Him to make my determination,

something would happen that provided me all the evidence I needed to change my mind, that is until the last person I met and eventually married.

We dated six weeks. We would have been married sooner if we could have found a pastor who trusted us enough to feel we knew what we were doing. Thus began the best years of our life. Both in love with our Father in Heaven, our church body, each other, and with a compelling desire to live for Jesus.

We look with fond anticipation to living together in the Kingdom of heaven, for His glory.

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

LHC that must be wonderful. I'm in something of a quandary myself right now over a relationship. I have prayed about it, given it over to God. Sometimes it feels like He's about to tear us apart and sometimes it feels like He's going to keep us together. I don't know what to think anymore. I just want it resolved one way or another.