David_McQueen Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 benhernden, over a year ago made an important point to me about prayerful bible study as an essential part of Christian growth. It got to me to thinking, if the Bible is our standard for understanding spiritual growth, what do we do with books like EGW or Purpose Driven or many of the other devotional books which are widely promoted in our churches, if there is but one semblance of error or addition to what scripture has to say? Quote Firstborn Ministries: Spoken and written word, without apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted February 4, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2005 The Bible is a oneness of divine and human, and ONLY GOD is infalible. The Bible is the standard to mesure other works, like a yardstick. Your question has the danger of being like "Since my house is not built out of rullers and yardsticks, but out of wood and brick that uses the rullers and yardsticks as guides, they might be a little off, therefore I'm afraid to use them for shelter. The issue of a little leaven ruining the dough, or the danger of 99% truth and 1% error is talking about the basic message and the general direction that the work is pointing. Let's say we have books full of information on health and nutrition and morality, but points to some other source of final authority than the Bible. Or a book full of spirituality, but says that since the spiritual is what's important, you don't need to worry too much about your body and health. These types of things are were these warnings apply. Deuteronomy says that nothing is to be added to it. Deuteronomy and Leviticus have many differences. Luke apperently was not a big fan of Mark, and while in some places Luke and Mark share the same facts, in other places Luke quotes Mark only to dissagree with him. (For example, a major theam in Mark is that no one knew who Jesus was until the Centurian saw him die, and even then this man was so ignorant of the Bible that the way he phrased it were words that would shock any Bible believer. Meanwhile Luke has people knowing who Jesus is right from birth, and this Centurian said nothing more than that Jesus was a good man.) What the critics point out about Mrs. White can also be applied to the Bible. But the friction between Deuteronomy and Leviticus, and Luke with Mark, and other such frictions gives us different angles in seeing what God is like, and also how God is willing to work with us as we are. The Bible also teaches us about growth. Lets take the truth about monotheism... In the earlier Bible books it teaches henotheism, that Yahweh is the ruller of the gods, and that the other gods were for the other nations, but Israel was not to pray to these lesser gods, but to worship only the God Most High. This developes into the fact that Yahweh is not only the King God, but that Yahweh created all, including the lesser gods. Then by the time we get to Isaiah, we realize that if Yahweh created the other gods, then they were not gods, but Yahweh is the ONLY God, and we have monotheism and a door open for a theology of angels. Henotheism pointed in the right direction. Henotheism realizing Yahweh's ultamate creative powers was even deeper in the right direction, then this right direction became clearifed and finally reached the truth of monotheism. In this God teaches how we are to grow in deeper directions of truth. So books such as Mrs. White point us in a direction and application of Biblical truth. Books such as Purpose driven life helps us to study the Bible better (although rather than books on "religion" I prefer books that give us better understandings of the backgrounds and languages, such as John Bright's "A History of Israel" and "The MacMillian Bible Atlas" and "The Land of the Bible" and the works of Abraham Joshua Heshel.) When we read the Bible, we have two choices. We can either read the Bible and use our imagination to interpet, or read the Bible and look at these others who have studied to see what information they can give us in understanding the text besides our imagination. But even as we read these other books, the Bible is still the final authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 I would say as long as the leaven is in areas that are obvious and known differences they may not be leaven so much as "strange flour" () ... Jesus said BEWARE the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees but He did not say beware anything of value they have to share. I can read books by other Christians or listen to their preaching on the radio and know they will refer to Sunday as the Lord's day, for example, but that does not mean they have nothing good to impart from God's word about Christian living or knowing Jesus. But that's my view and it could be wrong too. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 Kevin: I have never heard the presentation you made of the theology of the Godhead in the Bible before. Could you please tell me where you got this concept? Your friend, Dave M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 EGW refers to herself as "the lesser light to lead us to the greater light." She always urged her readers to go to the Bible for themselves to study out various subjects. She urged ministers to create sermons around Bible texts, not her writings. I have never equated EGW on a par with the Bible. Since she saw in vision the various Bible characters, their lives, and events surrounding the short Bible commentary on them, I welcome such books as the PP, Pk, DA, AA, GC. They do not conflict with the Bible. They expand the picture so that I can appreciate the people and events better. Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_McQueen Posted February 6, 2005 Author Share Posted February 6, 2005 The points raised suggest that the Bible is the final authority. However if you are a student not privvy to the education others have on spiritual interpretation, etc. how will you discern whether or not what the devotional writer says is truth or error? Does that not matter? Quote Firstborn Ministries: Spoken and written word, without apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_McQueen Posted February 6, 2005 Author Share Posted February 6, 2005 Nico, I like the concept of strange flour Quote Firstborn Ministries: Spoken and written word, without apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 6, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2005 I would say that one does not have to know the spiritual education of another. One only needs to compare the teaching with (for me) the Bible. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 In America, fewer than 1 person out of 10 even open their Bibles once a week. The best thing we can do for people is to urge them to start a Bible study\reading plan. Just telling them what the Bible says will not have a lasting impression. When my deceased wife lost her first husband to diabetes, her Prysberterian minister brother urged her to start reading her Bible as a method of getting through the grieving process. Well, she did. As she did, she discovered the Sabbath, much to the dismay of her brother. She was baptized into the SDA church and remained faithful until her death. What people find out for themselves will have a deeper impact than what someone just tells them. When we give Bible studies, we should also give the person a portion of scripture to read. That will get them started on finding out what the Bible says for themselves. Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 6, 2005 Share Posted February 6, 2005 The problem with having any one book as the standard is that language cannot address every instance and situation. You have noted different conflicts between different authors in the Bible and even in Ellen White. What is the standard in these cases? What is the standard in cases the Bible does not address? Even the idea of standards assumes that God thinks in these terms. If we would study philisophical and religious beliefs other than our own, we would realize that there are almost infinite value and moral systems, each based on different assumptions. Many of these are based on the Bible, only they assume different roles for the Bible or they assume different meanings for key phrases. The reason we need, as humans, a set of beliefs or assumptions is because we fear the unknown. When our beliefs and assumptions are shown to be less than reliable our world literally begins to fall apart. Why do you think people are willing to blow themselves up for their belief? Anytime I see the idea that we should give ourselves over to some absolute, my warning light comes on. Because no set of beliefs, sacred books, or philisophical ideals can contain God. There are experiences that cannot be shared in words, that allow one to transcend human logic. These experiences are love, joy, peace, passion, vision, and others that bring a sense of meaning to life that logic and study have no power to do. While I don't hold the Bible as an authority, the teachings of Jesus do provide insights, if practiced, that testify to their truth. The test that Jesus gave is the test of results. That is by their fruits. And the primary fruit is the fruit of love. Over and over Jesus demonstrated through parable and illustration that it was not what a person believed, but what motivated a person to act. Unfortunately, in the case of the Bible, much of the early writings on methods for entering into a process of transformation were destroyed because those in power wanted to preserve only one version of Christianity. The gnostic and other traditions have been systematically wiped out over the ages. One has to ask themselves if this is the method that Jesus was promoting in his teachings. I had a client tell me about a Bible study she was asked to come to. During the discussions on the Exodus and the Children of Israel and God ordering them to wipe out various races and to kill those within the camp that did not conform to God's law, she expressed some concern about these ideas. Her friend took her by the shoulders and looked into her face and said, "You have to understand that God was trying to purify the Jewish race." My client, understandably, bolted out of there as fast as she could. We may not put it in these words as Adventists, but the Bible has a number references to purification and its not a large leap to come to believe that God would purify us with the use of killing. For is that not the final purification? The death of the wicked in the lake of fire. And if we are trying to become like the God we worship, is it not understandable that we should learn to kill like God? To purify his people? This is the result of holding one Book as an authority. It is simply magical thinking that one book, using human language, could be an authority on all things. The universe and life are far too complex. My guess is that we are afraid and we simply need to cling to something to feel safe, even though that means condemning anyone that would disagree with our world view. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_McQueen Posted February 7, 2005 Author Share Posted February 7, 2005 Outside of scripture, what other united consensus do Christians do have that explain the truth that is Jesus? Quote Firstborn Ministries: Spoken and written word, without apology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: Outside of scripture, what other united consensus do Christians do have that explain the truth that is Jesus? I believe that Jesus lives only in the body of Christ, which is called the church. The Christian community itself is the vehicle by which one can understand and demonstrate the reality of Jesus. Does the church do this all the time. No. But, as I said in my previous post, when you see the fruits of the spirit, love, joy, peace, etc. manifest themselves in a community, you know that the spirit of God is manifest, no matter what religion they call themselves. This community of people provide through all their gifts the basis of belief and of healing. Scripture does not provide this, nor does it produce this. Scripture is simply one means of communication, and by no means the most effective. The written word is simply a technology that, until recently on a world time scale, has become available to a wider population. Jesus pointed, not to scripture when He left, but to the Spirit that would be left. And the spirit would lead people to truth, not scripture. Scripture is dead and Spirit is living. This calls us to greater awareness of the Divine within and to the wider world around us. Visions and dreams are available to all of us and if we listen you will find a common stream of understanding taylored for each individual. When truth comes it resonates with ones heart and mind. It is spread, not by the exchange of proofs and ideas, but by the life lived fully. I know this, not by a theorectical knowlege, but because I live this reality every day. I see and feel the transformation of people when they let go of judgement, begin to trust, and become willing to recieve love. It's not rocket science. It is simply the art of loving people. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: Jesus pointed, not to scripture when He left, but to the Spirit that would be left. And the spirit would lead people to truth, not scripture. Scripture is dead and Spirit is living. [:"red"] "You search the Scriptures....and these are they which testify of Me. " [/] John 5:39 NKJV Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 8, 2005 Share Posted February 8, 2005 Quote: "You search the Scriptures....and these are they which testify of Me. " John 5:39 NKJV It is interesting why you deleted the middle part of this text, because it changes the meaning completely. You, who call on the scriptures for truth, have bent them to your own ends in this case. Quote: You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. Here the full sentence describes how you apply scripture. You think you have eternal life in the scriptures. Lets look how Jesus draws his authority. Quote: But the testimony which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me witness that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. 39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. He talks about experiential authority because he has heard the voice of the father, he has seen the form of the father, and he has the father's words abiding in him. This is a living word that only comes through the spirit. For Jesus knew the father in the world of the spirit. The kingdom of heaven, where God dwells, is a spiritual kingdom. And Jesus said over and over that the kingdom of God has come, present tense, and that it dwells within the hearts of men. This text, rather than supporting your point, only further supports mine, when taken in context. I also noted that you did not quote Jesus' parting words to his desciples where he clearly establishes the spirit as the guide for the followers of his words. Lets look at John's view of the ability of the written word to contain the words and deeds of Jesus. Quote: But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Do you want to see what Jesus prayed for as evidence? Here is another verse from John.... Quote: The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me. The evidence to the world is that the desciples would become one. When Jesus told the desciples who would reveal truth, this is what he said... Quote: But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; 27 and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning. He would send the Spirit of truth. There is no mention of scripture. In fact Jesus gives us a clue about scripture. Note who's law it is that Jesus fulfills.... Quote: If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates me hates my Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father. 25 It is to fulfil the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause.' 26 It is to fulfil the word that is written in THEIR law. When Jesus talks about His law it is the law written on the heart by the spirit. This is the language of direct contact with God, not a theoretical study. And it is direct contact through the process of being one with each other. This process takes risk and a willingness to be open and honest in the fullest sense. It requires that we let go of judgement, preconceptions, and expectations of particular outcomes. This is something that very few people have the courage to do. It is often because the church is ready to condemn anyone who is willing to be honest and open. It also because the church is entrenched in defending doctrine and not in defending the helpless. So, if you are going to appeal to scripture, which I don't hold as an authority like you do, at least appeal using your own rules. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Quote: It is interesting >>why you deleted the middle part of this text,<< because it changes the meaning completely. You, who call on the scriptures for truth,>> have bent them to your own ends<< in this case. Re: >> << Please enlighten me, Richard. Why did I bend the Scriptures, and what were the ends I had in mind? I left out most of the rest of the Bible as well. Could you give the reasons for that? And since the meaning is changed, does that mean the Scriptures don't testify of Jesus? Quote: So, if you are going to appeal to scripture, >>>>which I don't hold as an authority<<<< like you do, at least appeal using your own rules. Re: >>>> <<<< Since you see no authority as I do, in the Word, this next or any other should cause you no concern. [:"red"] "And you have not His word (His thought) living in your hearts, because you do not believe and adhere to and trust in and rely on Him Whom He has sent. [That is why you do not keep His message living in you, because you do not believe in the Messenger Whom He has sent.] " [/] John 5:38 Amp [:"red"] "Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword" [/] Matthew 10:34 AMP [:"red"] "All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them [the people] from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. Then the just and upright will answer Him, Lord, when did we see You hungry and gave You food, or thirsty and gave You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger and welcomed and entertained You, or naked and clothed You? And when did we see You sick or in prison and came to visit You? And the King will reply to them, Truly I tell you, in so far as you did it for one of the least [in the estimation of men] of these My brethren, you did it for Me." [/] Matt 25:32,37-40 Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Quote: Re: >> << Please enlighten me, Richard. Why did I bend the Scriptures, and what were the ends I had in mind? I left out most of the rest of the Bible as well. Could you give the reasons for that? And since the meaning is changed, does that mean the Scriptures don't testify of Jesus? You tell me, so we can be accurate. Why did you leave the middle of the text out? And since you admit that the meaning is changed, why would you want to change the meaning? I have not said that the scriptures don't testify of Jesus. Why else would I quote from them. What I DID say, if you would bother to read it, was that the scriptures are not proof or evidence. They make claims, but claims require verification. And even John wrote of this when he quotes Jesus as saying that the proof of Jesus is present in the oneness of his followers. You continue to be dishonest in your dialog. I clearly state my position, and you misquote me, misapply my meanings, and rather than stating your position, you hide behind a slew of out of context scriptural quotes that are thinly disguised judgements and put downs. Quote: Re: >>>> <<<< Since you see no authority as I do, in the Word, this next or any other should cause you no concern. Well, I guess since I'm a heritic you don't have follow your own rules. You are now free to ignore scripture that doesn't agree with your position. You are now free to slander me, misrepresent my meaning, and pass judgement on me. You, who claim to hold scripture in such high regard, have now demonstrated that you hold it in only as high a regard as your own personal belief. You revealed your hand in this one. LOL Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted February 9, 2005 Moderators Share Posted February 9, 2005 Quote: Kevin: I have never heard the presentation you made of the theology of the Godhead in the Bible before. Could you please tell me where you got this concept? Your friend, Dave M. Sorry Dave, I just noticed your post. When I was going to college and working on my MA in religion, it was durring the Walter Rea and Desmond Ford issues, and this was one of the things that we studied out (looking at texts chronologically) in classes to show the shortfalls of Walter Rea's approach. Since people are more interested in traditions, this study has died down when the Rea issue began to settle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted February 9, 2005 Share Posted February 9, 2005 Thanks for the explanation. When I was working on my MA at Andrews in the 70's, Ford came to the campus and gave a week of prayer. I was very impressed with him at the time. Then I went to Wisconsin to canvass. While there I came across some books by Jones and Waggoner. As read them I came to see the error of Ford's doctrines. I also remember that he gave a sermon at one of our colleges on the west coast. Morris Venden was the Pastor. In his sermon, he present some of his views. The next Sabbath, Vendon got into the pulpit. His first words were: "Heresy was preached from this pulpit last Sabbath." Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Quote: Quote: Since you admit the meaning is changed [:"brown"] [/] [:"brown"] I do not admit it is changed. I was merely repeating your assumption from the post you gave answer in. The Scripture quoted earlier included the thought express as well as other.LHC [/] Well, I guess since I'm a heritic you don't have follow your own rules. You are now free to ignore scripture that doesn't agree with your position. You are now free to slander me, misrepresent my meaning, and pass judgement on me. You, who claim to hold scripture in such high regard, have now demonstrated that you hold it in only as high a regard as your own personal belief. You revealed your hand in this one. LOL Richard Greg has asked us to refrain from attacking each other, a good reason to allow the individual to make what they will of the Scripture used in answer. Since I have been led to believe it is possible some believe Scripture means less than the authoritative Word of God, it would seem that its use would have no more meaning to those reaching that conclusion than the repeating of stories about Paul Bunyan as having validity. The best place I have found to find God is through the Word. [:"red"] "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" [/] Hebrews 11:6 KJV [:"red"] "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." [/] John 1:14 NKJV As to your opinion of my character, I would have to plead guilty in principle if not specifically to this exchange. [:"red"] 1"For whosoever keeps the Law [as a] whole but stumbles and offends in one [single instance] has become guilty of [breaking] all of it. [/] James 2:10 [:"red"] " The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" [/] Jeremiah 17:9 KJV God also promises deliverance from that condition for those who ask Him. [:"red"] " ...has no man condemned you? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn you: go, and sin no more." [/] John 8:10,11 KJV Makes a person happy to be a believer in the Word. Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Quote: Greg has asked us to refrain from attacking each other, a good reason to allow the individual to make what they will of the Scripture used in answer. You know I gave you that opportunity and you still didn't answer.... Why did you leave out the middle of that sentence of scripture? Instead you gave all this verbage to some other tangent. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Quote: Why did you leave out the middle of that sentence of scripture? Richard Because that which was left out did not answer from the Word, the comment you had made in the previous posting. Words to the affect that the Scriptures have no life in them, but are dead. I'm writing this from memory so may have to be corrected as to the exact wording. Quote: Scripture is dead: cardw [:"red"] "You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, >>>because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them<<<. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me!" [/] John 5:39 [:"red"] ">>>because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them<<<." [/], the words deleted in the previous post by myself. Their absence does not change at all, the reality that the Scriptures testify of Jesus. But of course, one needs believe the Word to accept that statement by Jesus. Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Quote: Because that which was left out did not answer from the Word, the comment you had made in the previous posting. Words to the affect that the Scriptures have no life in them, but are dead. I'm writing this from memory so may have to be corrected as to the exact wording. Because that which was left out did not answer from the Word? What do you mean? The part you left out was the Word. You left part of the Bible out of the text. Quote: ">>>because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them<<<." , the words deleted in the previous post by myself. Their absence does not change at all, the reality that the Scriptures testify of Jesus. But of course, one needs believe the Word to accept that statement by Jesus. You still haven't answered WHY you left part of the passage out. It would be much easier to paste the whole passage. You had to edit it to delete that section. I have a guess, but you have stated that you are the one who defines what you mean, so I'll keep that guess to myself. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Quote: You still haven't answered WHY you left part of the passage out. It would be much easier to paste the whole passage. Richard Duly pasted: Your Quote: , "And the spirit would lead people to truth, not scripture. Scripture is dead and Spirit is living." Jesus was telling His detractors the Scripture they were pouring over gave testimony of Him Who is Truth and also much alive. If this were not so Romans 10:17 would not be true. [:"red"] "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. " [/] Rom 10:17 Faith in what. Or to be more specific, faith in Who. That to which the living Word gave testimony. [:"red"] " Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth , and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." [/] John 14:6 KJV The fact that the Jews did not recognize Jesus through the Word was in no way indicting the Scripture as being lifeless, but on the contrary merely pointed to the hardness of their hearts. Hearts intent on destroying that which interfered with their own plans of aggrandizement for themselves. [:"blue"] The reason:[/] The part of the Scripture I left out was left out because the part left of that particular text described the inviolable oneness of the Son of God and the Son of Man with the Word. [:"red"] "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me" [/] John 5:39 [:"red"] "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." [/] John 5:24 KJV Jesus does not say here the Jews were wrong for studying the Scripture. He was pointing out the fact that the light the Scripture held was not the evidence they were satisfied with to reveal the Messiah. Why? Because the Scripture was deficient? No! But because of the hardness of their heart. [:"red"] "And [the Pharisees] kept watching Jesus [closely] to see whether He would cure him on the Sabbath, so that they might get a charge to bring against Him [formally]. And He glanced around at them with vexation and anger, grieved at the hardening of their hearts, and said to the man, Hold out your hand. He held it out, and his hand was [completely] restored" [/] Mark 3:2,5 Amp Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 Well you still haven't answered WHY. You have answered about how it doesn't matter, but if it didn't matter, why leave it out? What do you think Jesus meant by the statement, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life;" If I read it just as it reads it says to me that they were making an idol out of scripture. They thought that scripture gave them eternal life. Quote: The fact that the Jews did not recognize Jesus through the Word was in no way indicting the Scripture as being lifeless, but on the contrary merely pointed to the hardness of their hearts. There is nothing in this text that would tell me all this. Sure, scripture testifies of Jesus. That doesn't bring it to life. Comparing the Spirit and Scripture, which would you say has more life? If we were to say the scripture had any metaphore, it would be a seed. But a seed is dormant life. The way you treat scripture looks like you worship scripture more than the real life experience of being filled with God's spirit. You treat scripture as if it has this magical quality to transform all your arguements into something that makes sense. Quote: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth , and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 KJV Do you think Jesus was talking about the New Testament here? Of course not. It wasn't even written. If you remember Jesus did not leave us a scripture, but a spirit. Quote: But when the Counselor comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness to me; 27 and you also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning. If Jesus is the truth and this counselor is the Spirit of truth, then it seems rather obvious to me this is the source of truth. I don't find Jesus saying, I am going to leave you with the Spirit of writing, or the Spirit of Scripture, or here are my writings, publish them. And this is what John says about the ability of scripture to contain all that Jesus says and does.... Quote: But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. I didn't have to research this, I just read the rest of the chapter. Its odd that when I respond with scripture, and use your language, you ignore it. These texts talk very directly to my point and yet somehow you hold on to some tangent like interpretation that isn't even in the texts you quote. And then you avoid the problems by moving off to some reasoning that says, since I don't hold scripture as an authority, then when I quote scripture it doesn't count. The reason I have confidence in what I believe is because it works. If something doesn't work or I find a better way, I change my belief. I understand the concept of fruit. Its not what I say, but what I do. Jesus illustrates this with the parable of the two brothers. One says he will work and do his father's will and then doesn't. The other says he won't and then does. If we were to follow the scripture written by these two brothers we would be wrong. But if we observe what each did, we would know the true spirit of each. Its not that complicated. Richard Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 Quote: The reason I have confidence in what I believe is because it works. Its not that complicated. Richard There is no doubt you are satisfied with where you are, Richard. However I do believe we are on two completely different pages, if not books, with the only bridge being God's grace We obviously are not speaking the same language. Perhaps there is one Scripture that might define the principle that offers some hope that we might someday dwell in the same universe without need of undercutting the other. [:"red"] "And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." [/] Luke 9:50 KJV As to the posts you give, when I see reasoning that seems a particular Scripture's influence would be well served, I will continue to present them and make every effort not to address you personally. [:"red"] "And since he would not be persuaded, we fell silent, remarking, " The will of the Lord be done!" [/] Acts 21:14 NASB Peace! Lift Jesus up!! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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