Biblical Literalism or Biblical Literacy

[there buster]

I'm starting this thread at the behest of Jeannieb43 and Bravus.

Rather than starting in a systematic way, stating rule after rule of hermeneutics*, I think it would be better to jump right in.

In Real Estate, location is everything. Same in hermeneutics, except we call location "context."

Somebody give me a text to start with (please not Ezekiel, Daniel, or Revelation--they take too long to get started here), and I'll do my best.

Also, if you like, I can recommend some excellent books for learning how to do this.

*Hermeneutics: the discipline of interpretation, after Hermes (Mercury)--the messenger of the gods. As Hermes/Mercury explained the intentions of the gods to humans, hermeneutics is the discipline of discerning the intention of the author from a text.

[Nicodema]

Ed, yes, please recommend good books on hermeneutics. I think we need a good hermeneutic for EGW too!

Here, start with this one; it is a frequently misconstrued popular SDA proof-text:

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" (Isaiah 28:10)

Thanks for taking up this mantel!

Nico

[there buster]

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I think we need a good hermeneutic for EGW too!

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I couldn't agree more! Actually, the same principles apply to EGW, or to any text.

I will recommend my 'must have' books, but I'll need to consult Stan first.

The Isaiah text you suggest is a good one, because I've never spent any serious time on it before. You'll be going through it with me.

[there buster]

Isaiah: Initial considerations.

We first need to look at the purpose and function of the book as a whole. Isaiah is a particularly difficult case, because, as many have remarked, it is almost two books in one.

In fact, a favorite sermon about Isaiah is that it is a "little Bible."

The Bible has 66 books, Isaiah has 66 chapters.

The OT has 39 books, the NT 27 books.

The first 39 chapters of Isaiah deal with OT concerns and historical matters. The last 27 chapters deal with NT concerns and prophecy.

I repeat this little riff, I don't put it forth as absolute truth. I'm aware the Hebrew Bible groups and numbers the OT differently. And that the chapter numbers came in much later.

That being said, take a quick look for yourself. Skim the chapters quickly. There is indeed an abrupt change between chs. 39 and 40. Indeed, if you read them consecutively, it almost takes your breath away.

This has led some scholars to speculate that Isaiah was two different books by two different authors, cleverly named Proto-Isaiah and Deutero-Isaiah.

For the purpose of this examination, we will assume that Isaiah wrote Isaiah--all of it.

Like I said, skim through it and see for yourself.

Then, notice something about chapter 28. Besides being in the first 39 chapters of Isaiah, does 28 belong to a larger structure (larger than just the chapter) within the book? Where does that section begin and end? What are the characteristics of that section?

(Hint: look at chapter 20).

More in the AM. I'm tired and will soon turn into a pumpkin.

[Stan]

Please link as many recommended titles as you can to do the amazon.com website..

Stan

[there buster]

Thanks, Stan.

I will provide the links and mini-reviews here. Stan is aware, but I want everyone to be, that if you buy the books off these links, I will receive a small (approx. 5%) referral fee. The price will be the same to you either way. Just so everyone knows.

There are very few good instruction books--"How tow" do inductive Bible study. So what I'll mainly be sharing are books that 1) Allow you to watch a really skilled inductive study, and 2) inspire you. One or two will go more into nuts and bolts.

Unfortunately, many theologians today (outside the SDA church) are not believers--they pursue theology the way someone else studies Etruscan Art. Although you can learn from them, I've stayed away from such authors for these recommendations.

The authors of these books all inspired me, made me want to study more, and gave me a new appreciation for the beauty of God's word.

My first recommendation comes with a confession. Gospel and Kingdom by Graeme Goldsworthy is no longer available by itself. It now comes as part of a trilogy which includes "Gospel and Wisdom" and "Gospel and Revelation." I have not read these last two, and cannot personally vouch for them (although I'm ordering this trilogy myself). But "Gospel and Kingdom" alone is worth the price. It's an easy read, a relatively short book, but one which demonstrates the difference between traditional study and real study.

He points out the falsehood of the "character study" approach, for example, using the story of David and Goliath as told to children.

"We can stand up to the Giants of sin in our lives," this sort of study concludes. But Goldsworthy points out that, in context, the real interpretation of the story is quite different. In context, David had just been anointed as King. He therefore becomes the anointed one, the champion, the Messiah in this story. If we're in the story at all, Goldsworthy points out, it's as the spectators watching as the anointed one wins the battle for us! That's just the beginning of this little gem of a book.

Another small gem, which was out of print, but is once again available, is Gospel of Genesis, by Warren Austin Gage. Talk about good things in small packages. This little volume is profound help in understanding the mindset of OT authors. I've used some of the material from this book teaching Revelation in Australia, New Zealand, Scandinavia, Hungary-- and people's mouths actually drop open. It's a marvelous little book I wouldn't be without.

Although written at least in part to debunk dispensationalism, Hans La Rondelle's wonderful Israel of God in Prophecy really continues the themes of the first two books, but expanding them into the New Testament. Many, many, students have been blessed by Dr. La Rondelle's teaching at the Seminary. I missed him there, but had the privilege of presenting on Revelation with him in Norway. What a wonderful man! And (for me at least) an indispensable book.

That's it for now, I have a pressing appointment. Later, I'll put up some more.

Blessings.

[Jeannieb43]

Thank you for this thread, Ed.

I'm so glad I've read it on a Friday. This will give me some time tonight and tomorrow after church to really get into studying the book of Isaiah.

Bless you for this effort.

[there buster]

More study tools.

Most "Study Bibles" are in fact not study Bibles at all. They are the results of someone else's study interspersed with the Bible text. They have their uses, but they are not Bibles for those who want to study. It took me years to find a true study Bible. The International Inductive Study Bible was just what I was looking for.

It features broad margins on all the pages for your notes; a blank line at the beginning of each chapter so that you can put in your title for that chapter, and a page where all these chapter titles can be assembled, giving you a vivid summary of what you learned studying the book. There are useful tools, a description of the three-step hermeneutical process, an introduction to each book mentioning structure and other salient features. In short, it gives you just the tools you need to make the Bible your own. I love mine.

Up to this point, the books (other than the Bible) I have mentioned are relatively short, and relatively easy reading. That is not true of the next three.

G.E. Ladd's A Theology of the New Testament is a big book, and a challenging read, but more than worth it to watch this scholar, and a believer, mining the New Testament. I've read and highlighted my copy so many times that the un-highlighted portions stick out now. You won't read this in one sitting, or probably in one month, but it is definitely worth the trip. But be prepared, this is NOT light reading.

Walter C. Kaiser is a leading OT scholar, and author of many books. When he's good, he's very very good, and when he's bad, he's--well, he's mediocre. Among the best of his books is Toward an Exegetical Theology. Again, not an easy read, but well worth it. There are flashes of humor, but mainly some really good, nuts-and-bolts approaches to understanding the process of Bible study. Not a thick book, but packed with value. Especially useful and challenging are his examples of the "block diagram" or "syntactical display." I have used this tool for years to help analyze the structure of an argument in a passage of scripture. Essential.

Okay, take deep breath. This last book is-- is-- the only word I can think of is "Majestic." If you love the Gospel of John as I do, this book will open your eyes to depths you did not believe possible. As a friend of mine, who teaches at the Seminary puts it, "You open this book and read a paragraph or so, then go and digest it for six months." If you can survive the first several mind-expanding chapters, Anatomy of the Fourth Gospel by R. Alan Culpepper yields immeasurable dividends. You will never view the fourth Gospel, or any other book of the Bible, in quite the same way. In fact, although it puts an emphasis on the human author to a degree that will make some uncomfortable, if you hear Culpepper out, you will have a new understanding and respect for the mysterious process we call "inspiration." This book is truly breath-taking. Just writing about it, I'm getting itchy to get it down and read another half-page-- and fuel up for another six months.

That's it for a start. Any questions?

[DaveM1936]

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Ed, yes, please recommend good books on hermeneutics. I think we need a good hermeneutic for EGW too!

Here, start with this one; it is a frequently misconstrued popular SDA proof-text:

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" (Isaiah 28:10)

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[i have removed two sentences--GM.]

Ed,

I just read Isa. 8. It seems to be that the context is a battle between false prophets and true prophets. The Jews had apostized and were listening to these false prophets. So God told Isaiah how to tell the genuine from the false. The genuine prophet would base their testimonies on the previously written word of God.

Your friend,

Dave M

[Nicodema]

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In fact, a favorite sermon about Isaiah is that it is a "little Bible."

The Bible has 66 books, Isaiah has 66 chapters.

The OT has 39 books, the NT 27 books.

The first 39 chapters of Isaiah deal with OT concerns and historical matters. The last 27 chapters deal with NT concerns and prophecy.

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Isaiah is the 23rd book of the Bible, so Isaiah 23 would be the Isaiah chapter of Isaiah.

Hosea is the 28th book of the Bible, so in the "mini-Bible" analogy, Isaiah 28 correlates with the book of Hosea.

Don't know if it does in real life or not, just thought this was a fun exercise ...

[Nicodema]

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Ed, yes, please recommend good books on hermeneutics. I think we need a good hermeneutic for EGW too!

Here, start with this one; it is a frequently misconstrued popular SDA proof-text:

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" (Isaiah 28:10)

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Do you really want to be convinced that EGW was a prophet? Or are you here to unsettled others views who believe she is?

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Why do you address me with hostility when I have shown you none, nor done anything to warrant it? Have I sought a quarrel with you? My interest is solely and only in the Truth, which can well withstand free and open inquiry, as I was taught boldly upon my original entrance into the SDA fold many years ago.

[there buster]

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Do you really want to be convinced that EGW was a prophet? Or are you here to unsettled others views who believe she is?

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[i removed that comment yesterday when I read it. However, I think that Ed's resposne to it is excellent, and good for all or us, so I am letting it stand here--GM.}

You know, when I'm teaching a Bible class, I don't allow the members to attack each other.

DaveM, you made an assumption way out in left field. Who said anything about EGW not being a prophet? Nobody.

So that's something that's happening inside your head, not on this group.

Second, based on your assumption, you make an accusation concerning someone else's motive.

Where do you come off doing that sort of thing? What makes you think you can read the motives of others. Frankly, you owe Nico an apology. That was an unwarranted assumption which mutated into an attack.

Let me make three further points.

1) What's wrong with "wanting to be convinced that EGW was a prophet?

I knew a pastor once, who as a student, had certain questions about EGW. That worried his wife, who convinced him not to think about those doubts. Instead of answering them and settling his experience, those doubts remained like weak spots in his faith, and undermined his ministry.

It's my experience that people who are afraid to examine the questions about EGW or the Bible, are people whose faith is too brittle and too weak to take them through adversity. So I'm happy when anyone in a study where I'm present asks real questions, and seeks real answers.

2)Are you concerned that someone might "unsettle" your own views? I'm not, for two reasons. First, I've exposed my beliefs to dissent and examination of all kinds. What's not true gets washed away. But what remains gets more and more solid. This means secondly, that I have confidence in what I believe. It has withstood so many tests. And that's just the sort of faith I want to take me through my final crisis, whether I live through the time of trouble, or simply have to face my own death.

3) People who are willing to make assumptions about the motivations of living people, who can respond and defend themselves, are generally quite eager to make assumptions about the text, which cannot defend itself.

I approach Bible study like Jacob wrestling with the Angel. I grab hold of a text, and won't let it go until it blesses me. But unlike the Angel, the text can't fight back. That's why I sometimes call the rules of hermeneutics "wrestling rules."

If we're going to get a genuine blessing from study of the Bible, and not "wrest it to our own destruction," then we must scrupulously obey the rules.

So, one of the rules which applies to hermeneutics also applies to our personal relationships.

"The author gets to define his terms, I don't."

That means the other person gets to define what he or she said. Instead of assuming what a text means, try it out, see if it works in context. Ask if it's the most logical interpretation.

With another person, don't tell her what she meant or assume it in an accusatory question. ASK.

Next time try tact and humility. For example:

I'm sorry, Nicodema, but I don't understand your statement. What did you mean when you said that we need a heremeneutic for EGW?

Don't assume. Find out.

[there buster]

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I just read Isa. 8. It seems to be that the context is a battle between false prophets and true prophets. The Jews had apostized and were listening to these false prophets. So God told Isaiah how to tell the genuine from the false. The genuine prophet would base their testimonies on the previously written word of God.

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We seem to have had a disconnect. Nico's text was Isaiah 28:10

Based on that, I asked these questions:

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Then, notice something about chapter 28. Besides being in the first 39 chapters of Isaiah, does 28 belong to a larger structure (larger than just the chapter) within the book? Where does that section begin and end? What are the characteristics of that section?

(Hint: look at chapter 20).

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Like building a house, good exegesis starts with a sound foundation. Don't rush to finish off the interior until the basic structure is sound.

Over time, you can get faster at this, like anything else. But the temptation at first is to skip important steps to get to "the answer."

[there buster]

Fascinating idea! My first reaction is it probably doesn't work on that level of detail.

Certainly, the last few verses relate well with Revelation:

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22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD , "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD . 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

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But on the whole I think caution would be a good idea. It's too easy to get carried away in details.

[Nicodema]

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Fascinating idea! My first reaction is it probably doesn't work on that level of detail.... on the whole I think caution would be a good idea. It's too easy to get carried away in details.

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No, neither do I -- I was just having a bit of fun with it.

Thanks also for your level-headed answers above. For a moment there I felt like someone who'd been asked whether I've stopped beating my spouse yet.

OK, onward, upward, back on task!

[there buster]

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For a moment there I felt like someone who'd been asked whether I've stopped beating my spouse yet.

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Yeah, all Christians have problems with it, but SDA's are especially prone to foretting who's God and who's not.

Because we had a prophet, who was given testimonies to rebuke private sin in people's lives, and because these personal letters were later made public, everybody wants to be the prophet.

It's simple modeling. She had a special ministry, which was very trying for her. I wouldn't want to know what's going on in other people's lives. What little i do know is scary enough. Anyway, it's gotten to be a habit to run around and correct everybody else's life--to read their motives, to understand their deepest yearnings--except we aren't commissioned to do that. My wife calls it "Weeding someone else's garden."

But it's a bad habit.

Another really useful attribute for a Bible student is being tentative. God's word is absolute, but my understanding is relative and finite. When I start confusing the two, I lose my grip on the text--among other things.

Jesus asked, "How do you read it?" That's a good model. "This is how I read it. How do you read it?"

[there buster]

Two questions.

1) What differences do you see between Isaiah 20 and 28?

2) How would you describe the large section of Isaiah of which chapter 28 is part?

[Nicodema]

I'll work on this more in the evening when I can sit down with my Bible and give it undivided attention. My initial impressions (cursory reading, not in depth) are these:

(1) In Isaiah 20, prophecy is directed toward foreigners (Egypt and Ethiopia) while in Isaiah 28 it is directed toward the people of God (Ephraim, Jerusalem)

In Isa. 20 the prophecy is "acted out" symbolically; in ch. 28 it is simply given as an oracle

In Isa 20 there is enslavement of a people to another people; in Isa 28 the enslavement is to "wine" (intoxication I guess?)

No hope is offered for the outcome in ch. 20 while ch. 28 contains a note of hope referential to the promised Deliverer (Jesus).

(2) It is part of a long series of woes and punishments upon various nations and/or people-groups. Each contain the woe, the sins of the peoples, and how they will be punished by the Lord, and some have notes of hope pointing to the Deliverer who is yet to come.

[Gregory Matthews]

A general comment:

It has been asked that recommendatiosn be made as to good books on hermenuetics. I will make one such. I have recommended it before for study in other areas. But, I think it has about 160 good pages on hermenuetics. So:

Gugliotto, Lee J. HANDBOODK FOR BIBLE STUDY: A TUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING, TEACHING, AND PREACHING THE WORD OF GOD, REview & Herald, 1995 & 2000, 464 pages, paper and hardback.

This book was written for the informed layperson.

I consider it to be excellent.

[there buster]

Thanks, Gregory.

I don't know how that one slipped my mind.

[Bravus]

As requested by The Stan:

That Handbook on Amazon

[Jeannieb43]

Ed, my Amazon order just arrived, with three of the books you suggested:

The Gospel of Genesis by Gage,

The Israel of God in Prophecy by LaRondelle, and

The Goldsworthy Trilogy.

Now my problem will be to find time (and the organization skills) to get something out of these goldmines!

[Gregory Matthews]

For those of you who are interested in purchasing the Handbook that I mentioned, it is currently sold by our Adventist Book stores, and therefore, I assume that it is available through their 800 number.

It is true that Amazon lists it, but Amozon seems to have a very limited nubmer of copies.

[there buster]

My advice: start with Goldsworthy.

[philo]

By now I just cannot read this marvelous compund of history, philosophy, revelation, vision, poetry, law just like an users manual for some Taiwan electronic device :"In case of default press red button twice".

But let me give an example of literalism I had learned from my father and that was and still is a great blessing for me : In case of some gossip he always cut off the abundandly bubbling fountain of words with quoting James 4 : 11.

p.s. :For those interested see Vincent Caprasano : Serving the Word, Literalism in America from the Pulpit to the Bench, New York 2000; for those with further interest : It was reviewed in AUSS

(Andrews University seminary Studies - recommended, subscribe !)

Cheers, blessings