Exactly 165 years Ago, Christ Entered the Most Holy Place

[John317]

Exactly 165 years ago from Oct. 22 Christ entered The Most Holy Place to make the final atonement for our sins.

Scriptures to remember

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1 pet 4:17,18

Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people .And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. Leviticus 23:27-30

And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. Ezekiel 9:4-6

And in that day did the Lord GOD of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth: And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.And it was revealed in mine ears by the LORD of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts. Isaiah 22:12-14

Jesus is our Advocate, our High Priest, our Intercessor. Our position is like that of the Israelites on the Day of Atonement. When the high priest entered the Most Holy Place, representing the place where our High Priest is now pleading, and sprinkled the atoning blood upon the mercy seat, no propitiatory sacrifices were offered without. While the priest was interceding with God, every heart was to be bowed in contrition, pleading for the pardon of transgression. - Ellen White

Even so come Lord Jesus. Maranatha.

[phkrause]

pk

[The Searcher]

Are you sure that Christ entered the most holy place at that time? There are many new testament texts which indicate that Christ has been sitting at the right hand of God since He returned to heaven after His resurrection. And if I understand this properly, the throne of God is in the most holy place. Could you kindly reconcile these texts with your statement that Christ entered the most holy 165 years ago?

Acts 2.33, Acts 5.31, Acts 7.55, Romans 8.34, Ephesians 1.20, Colossians 3.1, Hebrews 1.3, Hebrews 8.1, Hebrews 10.12, Hebrews 12.2, 1 Peter 3.22

It would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[The Searcher]

Did you know that there were only two sins which required blood to be brought into the holy place: When a priest sinned against the people, and a corporate sin when the congregation of Israel sinned in ignorance and discovered their sin? All other blood was splattered against the altar of burnt sacrifice round-about or applied to its four horns and the remainder of all blood was poured upon the ash heap which was on the east side of the altar of burnt offering. The blood which was taken into the tent was only sprinkled on the curtain and placed upon the four horns of the altar of incense.

Also, did you know that blood was never a transfer agent taking sin from one location to another. Rather, it served two purposes: Testimony of a death; Cleansing from sin and making an atonement with God with the resultant covering of sin and forgiveness in response?

Did you know the blood, which was taken into the most holy place on the Day of Atonement, was sprinkled upon the lid of the ark of the covenant and placed upon the four horns of the altar of incense? The lid of the ark of the covenant represented the seat or throne of God. And the altar of incense was the place where the prayers of the people were mingled with the pleas of the Holy Spirit.

Did you know that the people were to humble themselves and ask God to cleanse them from sin on the Day of Atonement?

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[The Searcher]

Are you sure that you want to say that Christ is making a final atonement for our sins? Didn't His death on the cross do that for us? Wasn't the work of salvation and reconciliation completed at Calvary? I thought that, "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse from all unrighteousness"? Atonement means reconciliation. Is 2 Corinthians 5 wrong when it declares that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, that we are reconciled to God through Christ Jesus, that we are ambassadors for God bringing a message of reconciliation, and that we become new creatures when we receive Christ? Does that only occur in the pre-advent judgment? Does not God remove our sin as far as the east is from the west? I thought I was reconciled to God? I do not understand, could you please explain.

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[John317]

There are many new testament texts which indicate that Christ has been sitting at the right hand of God since He returned to heaven after His resurrection. And if I understand this properly, the throne of God is in the most holy place. Could you kindly reconcile these texts with your statement that Christ entered the most holy 165 years ago?

Acts 2.33, Acts 5.31, Acts 7.55, Romans 8.34, Ephesians 1.20, Colossians 3.1, Hebrews 1.3, Hebrews 8.1, Hebrews 10.12, Hebrews 12.2, 1 Peter 3.22

Virtually all the texts you give here tell us that Christ sat down at the right-hand of the throne of God. For sure, this did not occur in 1844 but happened fairly soon after Christ's ascension following His resurrection.

Could you explain how these verses contradict the SDA view of the Pre-advent Judgment? You might want to tell us what the SDA view is and then tell how these verses prove the SDA view to be in error. I ask this because it's likely that your question is based on some significant misunderstandings of the 2300 day prophecy and the Investigative Judgment. I need to know how you understand it before I can answer your questions about reconciling the texts.

First study the following link: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-23.htm

[Stewart (SDA)]

Are you sure that you want to say that Christ is making a final atonement for our sins? Didn't His death on the cross do that for us? Wasn't the work of salvation and reconciliation completed at Calvary? ...

Sincerely,

Seafarer

Could I offer a small thought here? It relates almost entirely to the view that in the ceremonial figures, there exists a distinction between daily atonements and another period in which "final atonement" was made for the people of God.

Over the years, many in the SDA church seem to have become ashamed of the term "final atonement", but this concept certainly exists in the "figure". I am confident that the "figure", with all it's detail, points us to the true.

_____________

In the ceremonial pictures there are many daily atonements.

For examples, I would offer Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31; 5:6, 13, 16, 18.

But according to the figure (or picture) these all led up to a time of "final atonement".

The time of "final atonement" was quite distinct from the daily atonements, and that time was prefigured in the Day of Atonement (Lev 16). Of course the final atonement took place toward the end of the symbolic year.

_______

Stewart.

[John317]

Are you sure that you want to say that Christ is making a final atonement for our sins? Didn't His death on the cross do that for us? Wasn't the work of salvation and reconciliation completed at Calvary?

Was the work of the High Priest, of which Christ is the antitype, finished when he sacrificed the animal on the altar? Was the atonement completed by the death of the lamb or goat in the courtyard?

For sure the sacrifice of atonement was completed when Christ died. That sacrifice and shedding of Christ's blood is unrepeatable.

But is that all that's involved in the atonement-- the making of the sacrifice? Is there no more work of salvation to be accomplished by our High Priest? Isn't His work today also important? What is Christ doing today? See Hebrews 9: 23-28. Compare Lev. 16; Daniel 7 to 9 and Rev. 14.

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I thought that, "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse from all unrighteousness"?

Yes, you read right. How do you understand that this means the SDA view of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary is mistaken?

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Atonement means reconciliation. Is 2 Corinthians 5 wrong when it declares that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, that we are reconciled to God through Christ Jesus, that we are ambassadors for God bringing a message of reconciliation, and that we become new creatures when we receive Christ?

Yes, this is all true.

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Does that only occur in the pre-advent judgment?

No, it doesn't. Jesus has been High Priest since His ascension.

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Does not God remove our sin as far as the east is from the west? I thought I was reconciled to God? I do not understand, could you please explain.

Yes, we are reconciled to God through Christ. Our sins are truly forgiven by God. But God doesn't take away our freedom to choose. If people choose to keep, or return to, their sins, God will allow us to have them. Our sins are covered by Christ's blood just as the sins of the ancient Israelites were covered by the blood of the daily sacrifices. But our sins remain on the record books of our lives until they are blotted out at the time of Judgment prior to the Second Coming, just as the sins of the ancient Jews weren't blotted out until the Day of Atonement. See Ezekiel 18: 24; Daniel 7: 10; Rev. 20: 12; Lev. 16; Hebrews 8: 5; 9: 23, 24, 28.

Do you believe in a judgment or examination before Christ's return to give every man His reward according to his work? (Compare Matt. 22: 1-14; Rev. 22: 12)

[Stewart (SDA)]

Did you know..?

Also, did you know...?

Did you know...?

Did you know..?

Sincerely,

Seafarer

Are you offering yourself to us here as a teacher, Seafarer?

If this is the case then please take care. And please take heed, lest a woe overtake you. For "woe to them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight." (Isa 5:21)

In your eyes, have you come preeminently qualified to teach us about such things?

Stewart.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: The Searcher

Are you sure that you want to say that Christ is making a final atonement for our sins? Didn't His death on the cross do that for us? Wasn't the work of salvation and reconciliation completed at Calvary?

Was the work of the High Priest, of which Christ is the antitype, finished when he sacrificed the animal on the altar? Was the atonement completed by the death of the lamb or goat in the courtyard?

For sure the sacrifice of atonement was completed when Christ died. That sacrifice and shedding of Christ's blood is unrepeatable.

But is that all that's involved in the atonement-- the making of the sacrifice? Is there no more work of salvation to be accomplished by our High Priest? Isn't His work today also important? What is Christ doing today? See Hebrews 9: 23-28. Compare Lev. 16; Daniel 7 to 9 and Rev. 14.

Quote:

I thought that, "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse from all unrighteousness"?

Yes, you read right. How do you understand that this means the SDA view of Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary is mistaken?

Quote:

Atonement means reconciliation. Is 2 Corinthians 5 wrong when it declares that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, that we are reconciled to God through Christ Jesus, that we are ambassadors for God bringing a message of reconciliation, and that we become new creatures when we receive Christ?

Yes, this is all true.

Quote:

Does that only occur in the pre-advent judgment?

No, it doesn't. Jesus has been High Priest since His ascension.

Quote:

Does not God remove our sin as far as the east is from the west? I thought I was reconciled to God? I do not understand, could you please explain.

Yes, we are reconciled to God through Christ. Our sins are truly forgiven by God. But God doesn't take away our freedom to choose. If people choose to keep, or return to, their sins, God will allow us to have them. Our sins are covered by Christ's blood just as the sins of the ancient Israelites were covered by the blood of the daily sacrifices. But our sins remain on the record books of our lives until they are blotted out at the time of Judgment prior to the Second Coming, just as the sins of the ancient Jews weren't blotted out until the Day of Atonement. See Ezekiel 18: 24; Daniel 7: 10; Rev. 20: 12; Lev. 16; Hebrews 8: 5; 9: 23, 24, 28.

Do you believe in a judgment or examination before Christ's return to give every man His reward according to his work? (Compare Matt. 22: 1-14; Rev. 22: 12)

That is a nice little study you have given me here John. A timely review so to speak. I do appreciate it, and I have pasted it into the Sanctuary study notes of my E-Sword. Thanks.

[John317]

Studying the sanctuary and Christ's work there is really exciting and worth while because it helps us understand what He's doing right now and how it relates to our salvation.

[Guest]

That's right.

[John317]

Did you know the blood, which was taken into the most holy place on the Day of Atonement, was sprinkled upon the lid of the ark of the covenant and placed upon the four horns of the altar of incense?

Yes. See Lev. 16: 14.

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The lid of the ark of the covenant represented the seat or throne of God.

Sure.

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And the altar of incense was the place where the prayers of the people were mingled with the pleas of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, right. Our prayers are made fragrant by the righteousness of Christ.

Now what do you make of these things as far as the doctrine of the Pre-advent Judgment is concerned?

[John317]

Did you know that the people were to humble themselves and ask God to cleanse them from sin on the Day of Atonement?

Yes, they were to search their souls in humility, and if they did not do so, they were to be cut off from the people of Israel. In other words, if they failed to afflict their souls on the Day of Atonement, their sins would not be forgiven, even though they had offered sacrifices throughout the year. Lev. 23: 28-30. Therefore, they were to search their heart, do no work, have a holy assembly, and put away every sin.

[John317]

Did you know that there were only two sins which required blood to be brought into the holy place: When a priest sinned against the people,

Heb. 7: 27; Lev. 4: 5-7.

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and a corporate sin when the congregation of Israel sinned in ignorance and discovered their sin?

Lev. 4: 13-18.

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All other blood was splattered against the altar of burnt sacrifice round-about or applied to its four horns and the remainder of all blood was poured upon the ash heap which was on the east side of the altar of burnt offering.

The offerings for rulers-- Lev. 4: 22

The offerings for common people, individually-- Lev. 4: 27.

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The blood which was taken into the tent was only sprinkled on the curtain and placed upon the four horns of the altar of incense.

Sure.

[The Searcher]

No, I am just pointing out some things that I have been learning over the last few weeks in relation to this topic. And I am wondering what others make of this.

I look at what is commonly said amongst Adventists about 1844, and it doesn't seem to match what Scripture is saying.

For instance, I hear that a sinner's sins are transferred to the sanctuary, yet I see no where in Scripture that this is the case. In only two specific cases is the blood of the sacrifice ever brought into the holy place. And when I study the word for blood, there is no indication that it is a transfer agent, transferring my sin unto the sanctuary.

Also in the description of the day of atonement the word for cleanse in Leviticus 16 is not the same word as that found in Daniel 8.14. So how do they equate?

I hear Adventist say that Christ moved from the holy into the most holy in 1844, but somehow the apostles do not seem to have gotten the message. I see the theme constantly repeated, Christ has taken a seat at the right hand of God. Why would He have to move into the most holy when He has been sitting there for 2000 years?

And why final atonement? When I read of the different sacrifices for sin, I also read that at the conclusion of the ritual, the priest made atonement and the sinner was forgiven his sin. If the sin has been atoned and forgiven then why is there a need for final atonement? I see where Scripture declares that if I confess my sin, he is faithful and just to forgive me my sin and to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. Am I not cleansed when I confess? I read where Christ declares that when I accept Him, I am no longer under condemnation but have moved into eternal life. That a rebellious soul is condemned already. I read that when I am justified that all my sins are forgiven. That sanctification is a process whereby I am made clean. Yet, it seems that Adventists feel that God still holds them accountable for all past confessed sins.

If God is my father would he not forgive and forget? I remember my earthly father would hold me accountable for my wrong-doings, but when I was confronted and confessed, it was never brought up again by him. I was his son, and I was forgiven because my father loved me. Is not my heavenly father as forgiving? Does He still hold my sin against me? If I have confessed and been forgiven, must I face my sin again? What does forgiveness mean?

Yes, I believe I will sin in the future, but when I come to God and confess will that sin and all subsequent confessed sins be kept against me until Christ comes? That seems so hopeless.

Are they saying that my father in heaven will never love me until there is final atonement? I reject that. I will not accept that my confessed sin will be held against me; I accept that my Father in heaven will freely forgive me and remember my sin no more. That I am his son and, like the prodigal, I am held in his arms and his great tear drops fall upon my shoulder as I confess my unworthiness to be called his son. And he brushes it aside as He calls for the best linen to dress me, and he commands a gold signet ring to be placed upon my finger. And He holds a great feast in my honor: His son who was dead is now alive again. Will He then proceed to judge me? That is not what Romans 8.1 declares, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." (ESV).

I believe that Christ died in order that God might be able to forgive while still being just. That Christ has paid for my sin in order that I might confess and be forgiven and restored to companionship with God. I do not stand under judgment and condemnation as long as I allow God to work in my life. I do believe that I must humble myself before God and admit my sinfulness and my inability to do the works of God, that I must come to Him with a contrite and broken heart. But God bends down and says to me I have redeemed you; you are mine. I believe that all judgment was given to Christ, therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. I have moved from judgment unto freedom. I am forgiven. As Paul asks in Romans 8.33, 34, "Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." (ESV). As John, the Apostle declares, "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love." (1 John 4.18 ESV).

I do not understand? Am I not forgiven? Am I not a son of God? Am I not an heir? Am I not loved? Why must there be a final reconciliation, atonement, at-one-ment? Am I not reconciled now?

In answer to your question, I have come pre-eminently to ask questions. Statements have made that need clarification. I would learn. Do you fear my questions?

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[The Searcher]

This is a simple question. The declaration was made that 165 years ago Christ moved from the holy to the most holy. Yet Scriptures declare that Christ has been in the most Holy from his ascension. How do you justify such a declaration in light of these Scriptures which clearly indicate Christ was already in the Most Holy 165 years ago? Is not this statement a contradiction of Scripture? Is not Scripture our final authority? Is there something I am not aware of? I seek to be enlightened here. Upon what basis has the author made a statement which appears to contradict Scripture? Are we not all seekers of truth?

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[John317]

Also, did you know that blood was never a transfer agent taking sin from one location to another.

The blood of sacrificial animals carried defilement into the sanctuary during the year. Lev. 6: 27-29. Notice that the blood is treated as defiled. Also notice that only the sacrifices whose blood is not taken into the Holy Places were to be eaten by the priests in a holy place. Thus the priest was to bear the sin that had been transferred to the sacrificial animal, just as Christ would bear the sins of the world.

Daily during the year, sins were moved into the Holy Place, from the Altar of sacrifice in the direction of the Most Holy. On the Day of Atonement, sins were moved out of the sanctuary, beginning in the Most Holy and ending at the Altar of sacrifice. This is a very important point to notice.

Lev. 16: 16 shows us that on the Day of Atonement, the High Priest was to make atonement for the Holy Place, because of uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, FOR ALL THEIR SINS... " "All their sins" includes all the sins that had been confessed and forgiven during that year up to tenth day of the seventh month. So the sins were dealt with twice.

Sin was confessed over the sacrificial animal, transferring the person's guilt to the animal. Lev. 4: 29; 16: 21, 22.

Blood was presented before the Lord. Lev. 4: 5, 6

Flesh was eaten by the priest. Lev. 10: 16-18; 6: 30.

In these ways, the sins of the Israelites were transferred into the sanctuary, making it necessary to set the sanctuary right-- or to cleanse it of sin-- on the Day of Atonement, at which time the sin was transferred out of the sanctuary.

Question: In what sense do our sins defile God's sanctuary? Also, can it really be true that the heavenly sanctuary needs cleansing? See Hebrews 9: 23.

[The Searcher]

And Stewart, this is my confusion. If I confess my sin and ask for God's forgiveness throughout my life, am I not reconciled to God throughout my life? What is the difference between my daily reconciliation and a final reconciliation? It would seem to me that If I remain in a reconciled state, I am reconciled? If I remain in Christ, am I not Christ's disciple? What can a final reconciliation do that a daily reconciliation not do? Either I am reconciled or I am not reconciled? I do not believe there is a middle ground here. So if you would make that distinction for me, I would appreciate it.

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[John317]

I seek to be enlightened here. Upon what basis has the author made a statement which appears to contradict Scripture? Are we not all seekers of truth?

If you have an interest in studying to find answers, the following links will certainly help. The first link is to a recently published book that would likely answer most of your questions. It is very well written and gives the Bible evidence for the Investigative Judgment. There is much information online. Many people have asked the same questions you are asking, so the answers have already been offered at this link.

The book, The Silencing of Satan The Gospel of the Investigative Judgment, by Bradley Williams, an SDA pastor and personal friend of mine:

http://www.investigativejudgmentgospel.org/default.htm

Besides pastoring a church, Brad travels to various churches and gives seminars on the Investigative Judgment.

http://www.sdadefend.com/Defend-foundation/sanctuary-truths/sanctuary_message.htm

http://www.cyberspaceministry.org/Lessons/Truth/Lesson12/eng-s12.html

[John317]

This is a simple question. The declaration was made that 165 years ago Christ moved from the holy to the most holy. Yet Scriptures declare that Christ has been in the most Holy from his ascension. How do you justify such a declaration in light of these Scriptures which clearly indicate Christ was already in the Most Holy 165 years ago?

First, could you please give the Scripture references which "clearly indicate" that Christ was in the Most Holy prior to 1844 (i.e., since His ascension)?

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Is not Scripture our final authority?

Yes. It is the final authority, which means that we must measure everything that anybody says by Holy Scripture.

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Is there something I am not aware of?

On this particular subject, I believe it is very likely that there things that you are not aware of. But of course there are things that all of us are not aware of. We are constantly learning.

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I seek to be enlightened here. Upon what basis has the author made a statement which appears to contradict Scripture?

The key word there is "appears." Whether it is actually a contradiction of Scripture has yet to be shown. Let's discuss it and study and seek with an open mind. I am open to valid evidence and argument that are opposed to the Investigative Judgment. I'm certainly not interested in believing false doctrine. If it can be shown from Scripture and persuasive argument that I'm wrong, I'll be glad to change my mind on it. I've already changed my mind on quite a few things.

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Are we not all seekers of truth?

Let's seek truth, then, as for hidden treasure, and pray that God will lead us and convict us of it when we find it. Jesus said, "If anyone wants to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God... " John 7: 17 So the important question is, do we really want to do His will? If we do, God will show us the truth.

[John317]

I have come pre-eminently to ask questions. Statements have made that need clarification. I would learn. Do you fear my questions?

I doubt anyone here fears your questions as they have been asked many times before.

You are asking some very interesting, important questions, and I'm glad you are. May God bless in your search, friend. :-)

I would like to invite you to check out the questions and the Bible answers on the subject of the sanctuary, at this link:

http://www.preparingforeternity.com/br1914/brhc54.htm

http://www.preparingforeternity.com/br1914/brhc55.htm

http://www.preparingforeternity.com/br1914/brhc56.htm

http://www.preparingforeternity.com/br1914/brhccontents.htm

[The Searcher]

John317,

This is what I understand as I have been studying Daniel 7 and 8 and 9. At 1844, the preparation for the final events of earth's history began. I do not see a pre-advent judgment against God's people in these texts. God knows the hearts of all men. There is nothing that is kept secret from Him. As the Psalmist declares that He is the one who knows the hearts of all men. He knows who are His and who are not His. And the angels and all the other beings of the universe have also seen everything that has gone on in the world since man's fall. And Christ has declared that when we have accepted Him we have moved from condemnation into life, whereas, those who do not accept Christ have been condemned already. The question that needs to be asked, Is what is the purpose of the pre-advent judgment?

The judgment in Daniel 7 is declared to be a judgment by God for His people against the little horn power; it is a condemnation of all who have persecuted His people. It is a lawsuit; the people of God are suing the little horn power and all those who follow its lead, and they have appealed their case to God for justice. God is the judge between the plaintiff, His people, and those who are the subject of the suit, Satan, the little horn power, and all those who follow in their footsteps.

In Daniel 8.13, 14 I read a holy thing which has been trampled will be restored after 2300 evening/mornings. I have no problem with the dating; it clearly points to 1844. Daniel 9 outlines the events which validate the 2300 day prophecy, especially, those regarding the death of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. My issue is with an understanding that the "holy" thing is a sanctuary. Many translaters have associated this word "holy" as the temple in Jerusalem. SDA's have associated it with the sanctuary in heaven. But as I have studied this in the Hebrew, I have realized that neither position seems correct.

Allow me to speak to my understanding of Hebrew; it is important in order to appreciate my current position. In Hebrew a noun or adjective can have an article attached or not attached. If the article is attached, it is addressing a particular thing, whereas, without the article, it is a quality. As an example, when I say, "The city of Los Angeles", I am pointing to a particular city. But if I say, "Los Angeles is a city", then I am associating a property or quality to Los Angeles; it is a city as opposed to a country.

In the Hebrew Old Testament, the sanctuary is often called the, "The Holy." (It is also called the tent of meeting, primarily prior to Soloman's temple, and the sanctuary.) Note that the article has been attached and therefore is speaking to a specific "holy" thing. Whereas, if I say a particular item is holy, I am certifying that something has a quality of being holy. It is a state of being. Thus, the Bible declares some things as, "Holy of Holies", often translated as "most holy", when it does so, it is declaring a quality; it is the holiest of all things.

To have the quality of holy, it means that God has set it apart for His purposes and His only. A "holy" thing cannot be used for any other purpose than that designated by God. Furthermore, God defines how it is to be used, and it cannot be used in any other fashion. The "holy" schekel has one purpose and that purpose is defined by God and its use is defined by God. Thus the Sabbath is "holy." It has the qualities of being "holy". It was set aside by God for His purposes and its usage has been defined by God. It is "holy" unto God. God's people are also declared to be "holy." Thus they are set aside by God for His purposes and cannot be used for any other purpose than that set by God, and their usage is defined by God. They are His servants in order to do His will upon the earth. They glorify God by carrying out His will and purposes, in obedience to God's law, and by going where He sends them.

Returning to Daniel 8.13, 14, we do not find an article with the "holy" of these verses. So we must assume this is a quality of something; it is a "holy" thing. We must determine what this "holy" refers to.

In Daniel 9 we see examples of both usages.

24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” (ESV).

In verse 24, the city is declared "holy" (quality), and they are "to anoint a "most holy" place" (a place which is "holy of holies") again a quality. (By the way, "place" is added, it is not in the original text. My personal understanding is this "holy of holies" to be anointed is Christ; he is the "holy of holies." Note that the reference to the anointed one later in this passage.) Continuing, in verse 26, "the sanctuary" is the Hebrew "The Holy." So we have examples of both usages in Daniel 9. But only one refers to the sanctuary in Jerusalem. The others refer to qualities of Jerusalem or of Christ.

Returning to Daniel 8,

9 Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land. 10 It grew great, even to the host of heaven. And some of the host and some of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them. 11 It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown. 12 And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression, and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper. 13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?” 14 And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.” (ESV)

We read that a little horn will rise out of one of the Greek four horns. This horn (Rome) will become great and will stand against the host of heaven and will bring down some of the stars and host of heaven and will trample upon them. (Daniel 12.3 "And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever." ESV.) The host and stars are a reference to God's people.

Now lets look at Daniel 8.13, I will correct the English to reflect the Hebrew text. It reads, 'Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the daily, the rebellion that makes desolate, and the giving over of a holy; trampling underfoot?”'. The "holy" is without the article and speaks to a quality, yet many translaters apply this to the sanctuary in Jerusalem as they do in verse 14. The sanctuary is declared as such in verse 11. If this was the sanctuary to which 13 and 14 were addressing then I would expect the proper usage, either "sanctuary" or "The Holy", but neither is seen in these verses. This is not a reference to the temple in Jerusalem.

Verse 12 indicates that the "Host" and the "Daily" will be given to it because of the rebellion of God's people, Israel. The daily is the sacrificial service of the temple. This was given over to the Romans with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. And the "Host" which was also given over are those who followed Christ after His death. These were given over to the Romans because of the rebellion of God's people, Israel. Anyone who studies the book of Acts knows that the Jewish people accused the Christians to the Romans. Paul was attacked by the Jews and went to Rome because of their animosity.

Verse 13 then has two holy ones speaking to each other with a question, "Over what time period will all of this occur: the loss of the daily service, the rebellion which brings desolation, a holy, and the trampling. There is a connection here: Daily with Rebellion, Holy with trampling; a "Holy" thing is associated with "trampling." But that which is trampled is the host and the stars. That which is given over to the Romans because of rebellion are the host and the daily both of which are trampled under the Roman boot. Therefore, I conclude the "Holy" is a reference to the host of heaven.

I now come to the conclusion that this is parallel to the judgment in Daniel 7; the people of God cry out to God for Justice under the persecution of the little horn and its predecessor the beast or Rome.

In this scenario, the the response in Daniel 8.14 makes sense, "As far as two thousand three hundred evenings/mornings then will a holy be restored." The term "restored" is a legal term which means one who has been accused will be declared innocent of all charges and will have all of his former offices and privileges restored to him. It is God's people who have been trampled upon by the Roman power because of the rebellion of Israel, and they continue to be so trampled and maligned under the little horn power of Daniel 7 up to 1844.

And that is what I see happening. The SDA Church is the restoration to the primitive godliness of the first century Christianity. We are the final evidence in the lawsuit. The treatment to which we are subjected in the final days will make it clear that God's people have valid arguments before all, and God must step in so that justice is done. The judgment going on in heaven is not against God's people, but against those who have denied them their rights, privileges, and responsibilities to their God. It is the lawsuit brought by God's people against those who would deny them their rights as a kingdom of priests and kings under the rule of God. And God is the one to whom they have appealed.

In this regard, I would remind you of the parable of Christ regarding the unjust Judge and the widow in Luke 18. He concludes by saying, "7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?" ESV.

So yes, I believe in a pre-advent judgment, but not against the people of God. Rather, it is the court hearing which was brought by the people of God who cry to him day and night against those who have persecuted them throughout the ages. Daniel 7 and 8.13, 14 are God's assurance that He has heard our case and is acting upon it. That our rights will be restored as sons of God and priests and kings.

Who usurped our rights? Was it not Satan? Who have served as his agents? Was it not the beast and the little horn powers? Was it not those who have accepted their authority? It is not a judgment of God's people; it is a judgment for God's people.

This is what I believe after many years of study. That is why I am confused when people suggest that the pre-advent judgment is against His people. Why I do not understand a final reconciliation or atonement. Why I do not understand the big to-do over Christ's location in Heaven. He has always been at the right hand of God. It is our lawsuit, and Christ is a just judge who will restore what has been unlawfully taken from us. We come humbly before God and present our case. And He will judge rightly in our favor.

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[The Searcher]

Also john317, if you will look at the earlier posts on this topic, you will see that I have given a list of New Testament texts which declare that Christ is at the right hand of God and has been there since His ascension. Look them up, please, then respond. I would appreciate it very much.

Sincerely,

Seafarer

[SivartM]

I see the pre-advent judgment as the marriage of Christ and the church. And when He comes we will have the marriage supper of the lamb...

At-one-ment