Exactly 165 years Ago, Christ Entered the Most Holy Place

[Guest]

Are they 7th day Baptists? or no.

[tall73]

Are they 7th day Baptists? or no.

I think they fancy themselves Baptists every day!

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Are they 7th day Baptists? or no.

I think they fancy themselves Baptists every day!

Lol, I don't understand how you can make such a jump. From being an SDA pastor to being a Baptist. You know so much about the Sanctuary and all.

The Baptists believe it was all done at the cross don't they? And what about your Sabbath knowledge?

At first I thought maybe you preached too straight of a message and the SDAs got rid of you. I've seen that happen before. But now I'm just puzzled.

[tall73]

I think perhaps Adventists have some odd ideas about what other churches teach. My pastor preached on the book of Hebrews and believes quite closely to what I do now on the sanctuary, though we never talked it over.

But as I said I am probably not overly baptisty anyway. We joined there because they take Scripture seriously, they are fairly traditional and conservative. It fits us alright.

And they don't have 28 fundamental beliefs that spell out everything to the nth degree. Therefore they allow you to figure some things out on your own. We straight up told the pastor we had annihilationist views on hell, etc. and he didn't throw a fit and not let us join.

So it is a good place to study while we figure things out.

This particular church is not overly big on once saved always saved, nor have I heard any rapture sermons, etc.

As to the sabbath it was actually something that a fellow Sabbatarian said while we were both defending the Sabbath in a debate that began my questioning on that point. Or rather, it was something they pointed out from Scripture. But I have no burden to elaborate on that right now. And I suppose it would be off-topic to this thread anyway.

[Guest]

Well, thank you for sharing as much as you did. If you ever care to elaborate on it, I would be interested to hear it. I have enjoyed you and Bob's conversation on the sanctuary.

Enjoy yourself here at Club A.

You can always send a private message.

[tall73]

Well, thank you for sharing as much as you did. If you ever care to elaborate on it, I would be interested to hear it. I have enjoyed you and Bob's conversation on the sanctuary.

Enjoy yourself here at Club A.

You can always send a private message.

Thanks for the warm welcome.

[tall73]

A text that might have something to offer on the point of the end of the year that was brought to my attention elsewhere.

Exo 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

So there may be evidence for the end of the year being in the seventh month!

There is always so much to learn about the sanctuary.

[tall73]

Jesus as High Priest and King sprinkled the "heavenly things" with "a better sacrifice" as Heb 9 points out during the innauguration of the heavenly sanctuary.

Heavenly things in quotes seems to be a reference to Hebrews 9:23.

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Do you think that Hebrews 9:23, and the cleansing of the heavenly things, refers only to the inauguration?

[olger]

I am grateful for a Savior who is active on our behalf.

[BobRyan]

They Day of Atonement was in the 7th month.

Were there only 7 months Bob?

But even if the 7th month were the last month the Day of Atonement is not at the end of that month either.

Hence the reference to the fact that the ecclesiastical calander differs from the others -- a point that even Ezekiel seems to recognize as we saw before.

And it is not too surprising that both the Hebrew scholars and the SDA position - (as well as many other non-SDA Bible scholars) that the Day of Atonement service provides an atonement service for all the sins of the past year.

You are welcome to chart a different course if you prefer to ingore the point.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Tall73 -- your signature says "former Seventh-day Adventist" -- you are being a bit too modest are you not?

It could have said with even more accuracy "former Seventh-day Adventist Pastor" could it not?

There are a few reasons it says what it does:

a. The only reason I put anything in my signature is that the administrator in a thread at the top of this forum requested that people label themselves so folks know who is Adventist and who is not. I figured it best to comply with that wish, and it is not like folks wouldn't have probably figured it out soon enough anyway.

b. I initially put something longer in my signature, speaking about my Christian faith, but I only get 30 characters at this point, not being a subscriber.

c. I currently am a member at an American Baptist church. However, I don't consider myself a baptist as such, but just a Christian. So I didn't see any need to put that I am Baptist. Besides my Baptist church is probably not the typical and I am not typical of their members either. So no reason to give folks a misleading impression of Baptists!

d. Former Adventist let's folks know why I am interested, but also let's them know that they need not go to great efforts to describe Adventist distinctives to me as they might feel the need to do otherwise.

e. I didn't really know if I had space to put pastor but I am not really all that interested in advertising the fact anyway. A former title shouldn't make anyone think any differently of my arguments. If it did make them think differently that would probably not be something I would want to encourage.

Quote:

(since I don't actually remember the details on this next point I ask for clarification here) -- I think it would be correct to say that you are also currently a pastor (of a non-SDA church of some kind) -- would it not?

(Just curious - you need not repond to the question if you prefer not to -- it has no bearing on the subject ... but since you opened that door in your signature line -- I thought to ask).

in Christ,

Bob

No, I am not currently pastoring anywhere. I left the Adventist ministry due to theological disagreement. I have since been restudying my faith for the past 2 years. I have a number of questions still regarding Adventist beliefs that I would like to resolve, and it would not be best to bring such questions into pastoral ministry unless God just tells me straight out that I should. He hasn't yet.

So for now I am studying, working a normal job, trying to talk to folks as I can about Christ and hoping to get more active in my local church.

Thank you for sharing that.

in Christ,

Bob

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

They Day of Atonement was in the 7th month.

Were there only 7 months Bob?

But even if the 7th month were the last month the Day of Atonement is not at the end of that month either.

Hence the reference to the fact that the ecclesiastical calander differs from the others -- a point that even Ezekiel seems to recognize as we saw before.

And it is not too surprising that both the Hebrew scholars and the SDA position - (as well as many other non-SDA Bible scholars) that the Day of Atonement service provides an atonement service for all the sins of the past year.

You are welcome to chart a different course if you prefer to ingore the point.

in Christ,

Bob

The Day of Atonement is the cleansing for all sin, throughout the year. Who said otherwise?

And can you demonstrate that Ez. has in mind the month of Tishri?

Eze 40:1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.

[BobRyan]

Now that sprinkling we will get to.

Can you please spell out your view of the sprinkling from Hebrews 9? I want to be sure I am not distorting your position.

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

Now that sprinkling we will get to.

Can you please spell out your view of the sprinkling from Hebrews 9? I want to be sure I am not distorting your position.

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The sinner is sprinkled with the blood of Christ in vs 13-14.

This is the intercessory work of Christ as our High Priest and would be found in both the daily service and the MHP service.

Originally Posted By: tall73

Bob, did you do a bait and switch here?

err... umm... "no". Paul explicitly shows that the "people" were "sprinkled" in this service in vs 12 and 13 and then points to the fact that it is to cleanse our consciences from dead works.

"Faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

It is the "daily work" of Christ our High Priest in the Sanctuary.

What is not to like?

As I said we will address that sprinkling. But you did in fact do a bait and switch. You talked about the sprinkling of the heavenly things in the inauguration and then when questioned about it you switched to the sprinkling of people.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Jesus as High Priest and King sprinkled the "heavenly things" with "a better sacrifice" as Heb 9 points out during the innauguration of the heavenly sanctuary.

Heavenly things in quotes seems to be a reference to Hebrews 9:23.

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Do you think that Hebrews 9:23, and the cleansing of the heavenly things, refers only to the inauguration?

In Heb 9 it refers to the innauguration event. The Day of Atonement event did not happen in heaven until 1844.

in Christ,

Bob

[tall73]

Jesus as High Priest and King sprinkled the "heavenly things" with "a better sacrifice" as Heb 9 points out during the innauguration of the heavenly sanctuary.

[tall73]

Now I am going to switch gears for a moment and talk about the Passover.

Paul asserts that Christ our Passover Lamb was slain, showing that portion of the type fulfilled on the day of Passover.

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Many have noted the fulfillment of the Spring feasts on the days associated with them. Christ died on the Passover as the Passover lamb.

However, while this fulfillment is no doubt true the type was not completely exhausted.

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

As an Adventist poster recently pointed out on another forum the type was also about deliverance, punishment of God's enemies, and celebration of release, which will not be fulfilled until we eat with Christ in heaven.

Exo 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

Exo 12:24 And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

Exo 12:25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.

Exo 12:26 And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?

Exo 12:27 That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD'S passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.

So we see in the Passover a feast an element that was anchored in the annual cycle at one point in time, but which had parts of its fulfillment in other times.

This split fulfillment indicates once again that the fufillment will not always follow in all ways the timing of the type. But it does fulfill, and we accept it based on the NT text.

[BobRyan]

A text that might have something to offer on the point of the end of the year that was brought to my attention elsewhere.

Exo 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

So there may be evidence for the end of the year being in the seventh month!

There is always so much to learn about the sanctuary.

Lev 25

9Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.

10And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

Ex 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

Ezekiel 40

1In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.

[tall73]

And what about the firstfruits?

The firstfruits were to be presented on the day after the Sabbath after the Passover.

Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Paul says that Jesus was the firstfruits from among the dead. His resurrection occurred on the first day after the Sabbath after the Passover.

1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

This is often seen as a fulfillment of the firstfruits. In this scenario Jesus would be the firstfruits of the harvest of the resurrection which is celebrated more fully in the feast of tabernacles at the end of the harvest.

But again we see some things regarding timing that we would not expect from the type.

The fulfillment of the firstfruits takes place before the inauguration of the heavenly sanctuary in the first place.

So we have a split fulfillment of the Passover which modifies the timing of the type.

We have the once-for-all sacrifice and once-for-all entry that modify greatly the timing of aspects of the type.

We have the first fruits before the inauguration which modifies the timing of the type.

Is making firm predictions regarding timing based solely on the type warranted? A far safer approach is to take what the New Testament text says and believe it. And when it does not define the timing we can make predictions based on the type, but do so realizing that Jesus' superior fulfillment will bring surprises, so we cannot be dogmatic.

[tall73]

Ezekiel 40

1In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.

Seeing as I gave you the key text already I am not sure why you benefit from using this one. You have not even indicated yet how you know it applies to the seventh month. And if it did then it would be calling it the FIRST of the year, not the end!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The sinner is sprinkled with the blood of Christ in vs 13-14.

This is the intercessory work of Christ as our High Priest and would be found in both the daily service and the MHP service.

Originally Posted By: tall73

Bob' date=' did you do a bait and switch here?

err... umm... "no". Paul explicitly shows that the "people" were "sprinkled" in this service in vs 12 and 13 and then points to the fact that it is to cleanse our consciences from dead works.

"Faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness".

It is the "daily work" of Christ our High Priest in the Sanctuary.

What is not to like?

As I said we will address that sprinkling. But you did in fact do a bait and switch. You talked about the sprinkling of the heavenly things in the inauguration and then when questioned about it you switched to the sprinkling of people.

[/quote']

At one point in a prior post (among other things -- I said)

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Jesus as High Priest and King sprinkled the "heavenly things" with "a better sacrifice" as Heb 9 points out during the innauguration of the heavenly sanctuary.

Originally Posted By: tall73

Now that sprinkling we will get to.

Can you please spell out your view of the sprinkling from Hebrews 9? I want to be sure I am not distorting your position.

In my quote above I point to the sprinkling at the time of the innauguration.

Since your question appears to be more general - regarding Heb 9 itself - I also point to vs 13-14 where we see the Daily service function of sprinkling the people is also mentioned -- not just the innauguration work.

Since I already stated the part about sprinkling regarding the innauguration -- and you ask about "Sprinkling in Heb 9" I assumed you were referencing the other areas of Heb 9 that also deal with this.

In any case - both the innaugural sprinkling and that which is done in the daily service is seen there.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Ezekiel 40

1In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.

Seeing as I gave you the key text already I am not sure why you benefit from using this one. You have not even indicated yet how you know it applies to the seventh month. And if it did then it would be calling it the FIRST of the year, not the end!

The key is the reference to the Tenth day being the "beginning of the year" (which obviously also marks the end of the prior year).

That is spelled out for us in Lev 25 where the Day of Atonement - the Tenth Day is when the Jubilee year is started.

I would point to where Hebrew scholarship affirms this point -- but you seem to prefer not to look at those sources -- so I am not referencing it.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

In Heb 9 it refers to the innauguration event. The Day of Atonement event did not happen in heaven until 1844.

in Christ,

Bob

So you think that verse 23 relates the inauguration only?

Do you disagree with Adventists such as Ellen White, William Johnsson, etc. who apply it to the Day of Atonement cleansing?

There is Bible evidence pointing to the Day of Atonement as a "Cleansing" of the sanctuary - and some might be tempted to get that from Heb 9 -- but the context for Heb 9 shows that the particular instance mentioned there - is in regard to the innauguration.

So while the language "things in heaven cleansed" is wonderful and would be applicable to the Day of Atonement in a text actually talking about that event --- in the case of Heb 9 the context points clearly to innauguration.

in Christ,

Bob

[tall73]

Originally Posted By: tall73

Seeing as I gave you the key text already I am not sure why you benefit from using this one. You have not even indicated yet how you know it applies to the seventh month. And if it did then it would be calling it the FIRST of the year, not the end!

[/quote']

The key is the reference to the Tenth day being the "beginning of the year" (which obviously also marks the end of the prior year).

That is spelled out for us in Lev 25 where the Day of Atonement - the Tenth Day is when the Jubilee year is started.

I would point to where Hebrew scholarship affirms this point -- but you seem to prefer not to look at those sources -- so I am not referencing it.

in Christ,

Bob

It says in the beginning of the year. And we already looked at Hebrew scholarship that puts the first day of the year on the blowing of trumpets, which would again put the Day of Atonement in the beginning of the year by that scheme.

[BobRyan]

And what about the firstfruits?

The firstfruits were to be presented on the day after the Sabbath after the Passover.

Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:

Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Paul says that Jesus was the firstfruits from among the dead. His resurrection occurred on the first day after the Sabbath after the Passover.

1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

This is often seen as a fulfillment of the firstfruits. In this scenario Jesus would be the firstfruits of the harvest of the resurrection which is celebrated more fully in the feast of tabernacles at the end of the harvest.