"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."

[olger]

What does this verse mean?

What does under the law mean?

It could mean that which you look to for salvation. or

It could mean under it's condemnation. or does

it mean that we are not obligated to render obedience?

[Gerr]

It could not possibly mean that we are no longer obligated to obey the law. The same Paul who wrote it said, "the wages of sin (disobedience) is death." Ro 6:23. He also said, "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." Ro 2:13. And again, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God." 1 Cor 7:19.

So then, the first two options become real possibilities. In Ro. 6:14 he said, "you are not under law but under grace." This definitely could NOT mean that we are no longer obligated to keep the law because in the next breath he says, "what then? Are we to sin (disobey/transgress the law) because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!" 6:15. Therefore it could mean that law-keeping is not the basis of salvation but that salvation is by grace. It could also mean that we are not under condemnation because the grace extended has been accepted by faith and pronounced "justified."

But in the context of your quote (Gal 5:18), there is another possible explanation. He said, " For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Those who are led by the Spirit have, " But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." Furthermore he says, " the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient," 1 Tim 1:9.

Those who are led by the Spirit do not need any written law because the Spirit who leads them has it written in their hearts. It has become second nature for them to live by what they have thoroughly internalized.

[Just*]

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Rom 3:19

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:16

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:24

Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. Rom 5:18

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom 3:28

God imputeth righteousness without works, Rom 4:6

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Rom 5:1

In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Eph 1:13

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:1

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:13-14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Rom 6:14-16

[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Gal 5:16-18

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb 10:29

For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Heb 10:37-39

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Paul speak of two forces, one being the flesh, and the other the Spirit. These two fight against one another so that we do not do the things that we would. What are the things we would do? Are they bad things, or good things?

If they are good things, then this would be very bad news indeed, because the text would be saying that we want to do good things, but the flesh is mightier than the Spirit, and we are not able to do the good things that we would.

However, the opposite is true. The Spirit is mightier than the flesh. It's the bad things that we would do that we cannot do, provided we choose to walk according to the Spirit.

To be "under the law" as Paul speaks is to walk according to the flesh, which is to be disobedient to the law. Those who disobey the law or the ones under it. Those who disobey the law do the things listed by Paul as the works of the flesh, and, in so doing, are condemned by the law.

Those who walk according to the Spirit, on the other hand, do the things listed of which Paul writes "against such there is no law." So those who walk according to the Spirit do the things of which the law approves, and are thus not condemned by the law, or, "under the law."

[Just*]

Amen.

[BobRyan]

What does this verse mean?

What does under the law mean?

It could mean that which you look to for salvation. or

It could mean under it's condemnation. or does

it mean that we are not obligated to render obedience?

Under "condemnation of the Law"

Rom 6 says that "not under Law - Under Grace" places us into obligation "not to sin" not to claim that we are "slaves to sinning" not to claim that sin is too much for us -- and we must sin.

1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

in Christ,

Bob

[pnattmbtc]

I agree with the idea that "under the law" means "under the condemnation of the law." However, there's something else worth mentioning, I think. Paul uses the expressions "under law" (the literal Greek says this) to speak of a power one is under, as opposed to "under grace." One who is "under law" is one who attempts to use the law unlawfully, to obtain God's favor. This leads one to try to keep the law by one's own power, which leads to condemnation.

This needn't be seen only in terms of the 10 commandments. What I mean is, the person "under law" doesn't need to be motivated by the 10 commandments to try to gain God's favor. It can be *anything* a person does to try to gain God's favor. The root of the problem is in thinking that God's favor needs to be gained by good behavior. God will be against us unless we're good. We need to win God's love. One may not express these ideas consciously, but the basic idea, even if unconscious, is that God does not love us as we are. This leads to a motivation of service based on fear of punishment or hope of reward.

On the other hand, to be under grace is to recognize the great love that was revealed on Calvary. We see that God so love the world (i.e. me!) that He gave His only Son. The light shining from the cross leads me to repentance, as the love of God is revealed to my heart. I see myself as a sinner, but as a sinner loved by God, not because of any goodness I have or any good acts I might do (if I could do any), but because of *His* goodness.

When our performance is disconnected from God's love, we are under grace. The under grace motivation (which is one of thankfulness) is much greater than the under law motivation.

[Twilight]

What does this verse mean?

What does under the law mean?

It could mean that which you look to for salvation. or

It could mean under it's condemnation. or does

it mean that we are not obligated to render obedience?

What is the Grace of God for?

Some people think it is for their justification.

But it is more than that.

It is for our sanctification.

To be under "Grace" is to be led by the Spirit.

So to be under the law is seeking to be Justified or Sanctified (or both), by our own efforts.

Because many Christians believe they are sanctified by their own efforts, they place themselves under the law.

Sanctification is a gift from God.

So to be led by the Spirit, is to be sanctified by the Spirit.

To be under the law is seeking to be sanctified by ones own effort.

Mark

[pnattmbtc]

What is the Grace of God for? Some people think it is for their justification. But it is more than that.

It is for our sanctification.

To be under "Grace" is to be led by the Spirit. So to be under the law is seeking to be Justified or Sanctified (or both), by our own efforts.

Because many Christians believe they are sanctified by their own efforts, they place themselves under the law.

Sanctification is a gift from God.So to be led by the Spirit, is to be sanctified by the Spirit. To be under the law is seeking to be sanctified by ones own effort.

Excellent points! Sanctification is as much by faith as justification is.

An appreciation of God's character should be sufficient to convict us that we have nothing, and never will have anything, to offer to God by way of saying, "You owe me something because I've done X".

Fortunately, God loves us and takes pity on us, so if we choose not to resist His Spirit, He will lead us to Christ, whether by way of justification or sanctification. It is Christ we need, and He gives Himself to us as a free gift only, for the contrite in spirit (which is also a free gift; i.e. being contrite in spirit).

At any rate, this is an excellent point to bring up, Mark, because many Christians were sincerely converted, accepting Christ by faith through grace, but somewhere along the line get misled into the idea of thinking that now that they are saved they need to do good works to obtain God's favor.

[Guest]

At any rate, this is an excellent point to bring up, Mark, because many Christians were sincerely converted, accepting Christ by faith through grace, but somewhere along the line get misled into the idea of thinking that now that they are saved they need to do good works to obtain God's favor.

No the good works will not obtain God's favor. But you will do the good works because you have God's Favor.

Paul tells us how we are saved.

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8,9

And James tells what we will do IF we are saved.

Jas 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good life his works with meekness of wisdom.

Jas 2:12 So speak, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

[Musicman1228]

If we are to believe Jesus Christ then the Holy Spirit will lead us into the keeping of the Covenant, not away from it.

[Guest]

Huh?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gerry,

Led by the Spirit means to listen to and do what the Spirit impresses us with. If I do that then why would I need to go reading the law to figure out how to live. The Spirit brings into my life love for God and love for people and this is what guides us to do what is written in the law. Without this love we are living under the law, meaning; we will, as conscientious believers, try to do what is right even if it is without love.

I see Paul saying it this way, if you are truly led by love, you are not obliged to worry about doing what is right, because you will do it in the Spirit. (We don't throw away the law because of this though)

Under the law means to live without the love of God accepted in the heart and mind. The whole world is like this until the choice is made to accept Christ. Honest conscientious people can have a difficult time living without this love. They will tend to live under the law; look at all the rules and do what they say in order to feel right with God.

There's much that could be said about this topic but I'll keep it short and simple.

Norman

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

What is the Grace of God for? Some people think it is for their justification. But it is more than that.

It is for our sanctification.

To be under "Grace" is to be led by the Spirit. So to be under the law is seeking to be Justified or Sanctified (or both), by our own efforts.

Because many Christians believe they are sanctified by their own efforts, they place themselves under the law.

Sanctification is a gift from God.So to be led by the Spirit, is to be sanctified by the Spirit. To be under the law is seeking to be sanctified by ones own effort.

Excellent points! Sanctification is as much by faith as justification is.

An appreciation of God's character should be sufficient to convict us that we have nothing, and never will have anything, to offer to God by way of saying, "You owe me something because I've done X".

Fortunately, God loves us and takes pity on us, so if we choose not to resist His Spirit, He will lead us to Christ, whether by way of justification or sanctification. It is Christ we need, and He gives Himself to us as a free gift only, for the contrite in spirit (which is also a free gift; i.e. being contrite in spirit).

At any rate, this is an excellent point to bring up, Mark, because many Christians were sincerely converted, accepting Christ by faith through grace, but somewhere along the line get misled into the idea of thinking that now that they are saved they need to do good works to obtain God's favor.

This is often arrived at through misunderstanding the verse:

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling..."

Which means:

Willingly co-operate with the Lord as He leads you to accept victory from Him.

---------

Pleased we agree on this. :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

At any rate, this is an excellent point to bring up, Mark, because many Christians were sincerely converted, accepting Christ by faith through grace, but somewhere along the line get misled into the idea of thinking that now that they are saved they need to do good works to obtain God's favor.

No the good works will not obtain God's favor. But you will do the good works because you have God's Favor.

Or is it that we receive Gods Works by faith and they are manifested in and through us?

Rather than "we do good works"?

Mark :-)

[Musicman1228]

Hi Gerry,

Led by the Spirit means to listen to and do what the Spirit impresses us with. If I do that then why would I need to go reading the law to figure out how to live. The Spirit brings into my life love for God and love for people and this is what guides us to do what is written in the law. Without this love we are living under the law, meaning; we will, as conscientious believers, try to do what is right even if it is without love.

I see Paul saying it this way, if you are truly led by love, you are not obliged to worry about doing what is right, because you will do it in the Spirit. (We don't throw away the law because of this though)

Under the law means to live without the love of God accepted in the heart and mind. The whole world is like this until the choice is made to accept Christ. Honest conscientious people can have a difficult time living without this love. They will tend to live under the law; look at all the rules and do what they say in order to feel right with God.

There's much that could be said about this topic but I'll keep it short and simple.

Norman

There are two spirits in the world that act on and influence behavior in human beings; The Spirit of Truth-the Holy Spirit, and the spirit of lies-the spirit of Satan. One of the greatest deceptions of Satan is to get people to believe that only the Holy Spirit can influence people to do good. This is not true. The spirit of Satan (through his demons) can and does influence people to good. So how then do you know which spirit it is that is influencing your behavior if you don't have a standard against which to measure that spirit, and be able to tell conclusively whether or not it is of God? Satan's biggest weapon in the battle for the souls of men is love.

[olger]

Thanks y'all.

I like the thought of sanctification being the yield of grace. I also like the thought that ye cannot do the things that ye would meaning the grace of Christ constrains us away from sin and gives us victory over habits, temptations.

g

[olger]

That said, I have a question.

If being under the Law means that we are trying to live our good life on our own steam, then why was Jesus born "under the law." That confuses me. Jesus' whole life was the antithesis of trying to do good on His own.

ol

ger

[Twilight]

That said, I have a question.

If being under the Law means that we are trying to live our good life on our own steam, then why was Jesus born "under the law." That confuses me. Jesus' whole life was the antithesis of trying to do good on His own.

ol

ger

Jesus was different.

He kept the law perfectly.

So for Him to be "under the law" would not mean Him being condemned by it?

Does that answer your question?

Mark

[John317]

Originally Posted By: olger

That said, I have a question.

If being under the Law means that we are trying to live our good life on our own steam, then why was Jesus born "under the law." That confuses me. Jesus' whole life was the antithesis of trying to do good on His own.

ol

ger

Jesus was different.

He kept the law perfectly.

So for Him to be "under the law" would not mean Him being condemned by it?

Does that answer your question?

Mark

Gal. 4: 4 means that Jesus was born at a time when Israel was subject to the regulations of the whole Mosaic system of law. Jesus became subject to the same regulations. If he'd sinned, he would have been required by the law to offer a sacrifice. Jesus kept the feasts and the rest of the Mosaic legal system. Compare Gal. 3: 23.

The Complete Jewish Bible translates Gal. 4: 4,5, "He was born... into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm so that he might redeem those in subjection to this legalism and thus enable us to be made God's sons."

Gal. 4: 21 proves that being "under law" does not mean being under condemnation of the moral law, since no one desires to be under its condemnation.

It reads, literally, "Tell me, those desiring to be under law, do you not hear the law?"

"Under law"= under supervision of law. "Under the law" is referring to the books of Moses.

The Complete Jewish Bible translates it, "Tell me, you who want to be in subjection to the system that results from perverting the Torah into legalism, don't you hear what the Torah itself says?"

See the SDA Bible Commentary on Gal. 4: 4 and Gal. 2: 16.

[Haldog]

"If you can accept that you were by nature a sinner, then you must also accept that, now that you have been born again, you are by nature righteous"...Andrew Wommack

[John317]

".... now that you have been born again, you are by nature righteous"...Andrew Wommack

Could you explain what is meant by "you are by nature righteous"?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Jesus was different.

He kept the law perfectly.

So for Him to be "under the law" would not mean Him being condemned by it?

Does that answer your question?

Mark

Gal. 4: 4 means that Jesus was born at a time when Israel was subject to the regulations of the whole Mosaic system of law. Jesus became subject to the same regulations. If he'd sinned, he would have been required by the law to offer a sacrifice. Jesus kept the feasts and the rest of the Mosaic legal system. Compare Gal. 3: 23.

The Complete Jewish Bible translates Gal. 4: 4,5, "He was born... into a culture in which legalistic perversion of the Torah was the norm so that he might redeem those in subjection to this legalism and thus enable us to be made God's sons."

Gal. 4: 21 proves that being "under law" does not mean being under condemnation of the moral law, since no one desires to be under its condemnation.

It reads, literally, "Tell me, those desiring to be under law, do you not hear the law?"

"Under law"= under supervision of law. "Under the law" is referring to the books of Moses.

The Complete Jewish Bible translates it, "Tell me, you who want to be in subjection to the system that results from perverting the Torah into legalism, don't you hear what the Torah itself says?"

See the SDA Bible Commentary on Gal. 4: 4 and Gal. 2: 16.

[/quote']

This is contrary to what Waggoner taught. Two good sources to see what Waggoner taught are "The Gospel in Galatians" and "The Glad Tidings," both of which can be found by Google.

To state things briefly, Waggoner argues that Gal. 4:4 is not dealing with Jewish regulations but with being born "under the law" which is "under the condemnation of the law." Jesus was born in this condition, and passed His whole life until Calvary in this condition. Waggoner argued this in both sources I cited. "The Gospel in Galatians" is a particularly good place to look, as there he answers Butler's objections.

One argument Waggoner raises is that it says that Jesus was born under the law to redeem those under the law. So if "under the law" means those under the Jewish system, then this would mean that Jesus was born under the Jewish system to redeem those under the Jewish system. But Paul was writing to Gentiles, not Jews, and he wrote,

Quote:

4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

"And because ye are sons" makes it clear that Paul had the Gentiles in mind, regarding Jesus' work. So Jesus was born under the law that all of us are under.

Regarding the idea that Gal. 4:21 disproves the idea that "under the law" does not mean "under the condemnation of the law," this is one of the objections that Waggoner specifically deals with.

Here's the argument. First Butler:

Quote:

We have, then, according to that view, these Galatian brethren desiring to be in a state of guilt, which would expose them to the lake of fire. ‘Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law,’ with this equivalent expression substituted, would read, Tell me, ye that desire to be under the condemnation of the law—Tell me, ye that desire the condemnation of the second death.

We have known men to desire many strange things, but we never before knew one to desire the second death. But if that view of the subject is correct, and this jaw is the moral law, and all these expressions ‘under the law’ mean under its condemnation, then we have no possible escape from this conclusion. But to think of these new, zealous converts to Christianity desiring to go into a state of condemnation, exposed to such a doom, is too preposterous for a moment’s consideration.”

Virtually the same argument you are making. Here's Waggoner's response:

Quote:

I gladly acknowledge that I am the identical one of your friends who has claimed that in every case where the expression “under the law” occurs in the original, it signifies “being in a state of sin or condemnation, that is, in a position where the penalty of the law hangs over one’s head.” And I trust that I shall never be counted as your enemy because I tell you this truth.

You make sport of this idea, and say that you never knew anyone who desired the second death. My knowledge is not very extensive, but I have known that very thing. In the eighth chapter of Proverbs, Wisdom, which is the fear of God, is personified and in the last verse of that chapter she says, “All them that hate me love death.” There you have a plain Bible statement that there are some that love death. It is not to be supposed that men deliberately desire death, but they do deliberately choose and love the course which must result in death, and consequently they are said to love death.

In Acts 13:45 we read that Paul and Barnabas said to the Jews who had rejected the word of God, “contradicting and blaspheming:” “Seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.” Here we have a similar statement. The apostle did not mean to indicate that those self-conceited Jews thought that they were not fit to enter Heaven; on the contrary, they thought that they were the only ones who were worthy of that privilege. But they were unwilling to receive the only truth which could fit them for everlasting life, and so they could justly be said to be unwilling to receive everlasting life.

So Paul could say to the Galatians who were turning aside from the gospel of Christ, that they desired to be under the law. Not that they deliberately chose death, but they were seeking justification by something which could not bring them justification. They were losing their faith in Christ, and being removed from God (Galatians 1:5); and such a course, if carried out, would inevitably bring them under the condemnation of the law. I see nothing absurd in this position. If it is absurd, then you must attach absurdity to the words of Solomon in Proverbs 8:36.

Let me prove the point in another way. You will admit that a man’s own way, if followed, will always end in death. Says Solomon: “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.“ And this way which seems right to a man, is his own way. Now since a man’s own way is the way of death, it can truly be said that all who love their own way love death. The Galatians had turned to their own way, which is opposed to the ways of God. And so they were desirous to be under the condemnation of the law.

I have found Galatians to be a rich study, and these two sources that I have mentioned I have found to be immensely helpful in seeking to understand it. I'd encourage anyone interested in this subject to check out what Waggoner had to say.

[Kevin H]

For a reference I would like to recommend Jim Fleming's "Acts: New Discoveries on the ancient church" [or something close to that] and his "Lest we forget: A history of Anti-Jewishness and the church"

Fleming points out that Paul use to belong to a synogogue called the synogogue of the freedmen. The members of this synogogue were either those or the children of those who were captured by the Romans for uprisings, forced to work 16 hour days 7 days a week for (I can't remember how many years, something like 30 years) but if they were faithful to their job they were granted freedom with full Roman citizenship for them and their children.

Some of these returned to Jerusalem where they formend the synogogue of the freedmen, where they wanted to prove that they were better Jews than those who lived in the land, they wanted to prove that they were better Jews than even the Pharicees. They were highly nationalistic, insisting on speaking only Hebrew and maybe some tolerance for Aramaic. Since they saw the regular Jews as too liberal and not good enough Jews you know that they really hated the dispersia Greek speaking Jews. This synogogue was NOT mainline Judaism but a far rightwing hate group. They prided themselves on not just the religion of Judaism but also focusing on being nationalistic and super wrap yourself in the flag patarotic. And what they called this NATIONALISTIC form of Judaism was called "The works of the law"

Fleming (a Methodist) argues (and the work book on Acts has a wonderful bibilography to support his arguments) that beign under the law is not talking about the Biblical law, but the idea that you were to become far rightwing flag waving members of one political party within Judaism if you were a good Jew. This was in conflect with a form of Judaism which had a bilingual ministry to the Greek speaking Helinistic Jews and eventually ofered a non-nationalistic form of Judaism to gentiles.

The Jews taught Righteousness by faith. We have re-interped Paul based on the church-synogogue split of 135 AD, the teachings of St. Augustine and the teachings of Martin Luther and church tradition over the centuries, and while we look at Paul's words, we have very few of Paul's ideas, but read into Paul's words ideas that would have never occured to Paul.