Woody Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Yes. Obviously God knows the future. He knows each person even before they are conceived. Praise God for His wisdom. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 14, 2009 Members Share Posted November 14, 2009 Good post rudywoofs, it seems many would like to think for others, when the God of this universe has given each one of us the right of choosing. Even if that choice is wrong. Because ultimately we are responsable to him not those that think that they are right and all others are wrong. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Good post rudywoofs, it seems many would like to think for others, when the God of this universe has given each one of us the right of choosing. Even if that choice is wrong. Because ultimately we are responsable to him not those that think that they are right and all others are wrong. pk pkrause,are you sure you're right about that?? What if those you're criticizing are,in fact, right? What if those who you say would like to think for others are really more interested in trying to persuade others to CHOOSE an alternative view for themselves? Or,what if God actually sent those people to help others to use their right to choose to choose what was right? Are you SURE you're right about the application of your criticism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: doug yowell Doug, I don’t have one! I have a real estate office and we do not use ultrasound machines to search for real estate properties. Besides, you haven’t told me whether I can come out of my room yet! I have been there for al most 24 hours. Perhaps I should call a social worker and file a complaint for child abuse! [/quote']Oh come on Nic,you're busted!! Everyone is on to your "real estate office" cover. Have your receptionist shred all your records while I stall for time! But you'll have to get permission from Pam before you can leave your room,sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 14, 2009 Members Share Posted November 14, 2009 No one is saying that you can't do that. Its the way its being said. That if someone is for chose that they are heathen in there thinking. I am against abortion but each has a right to choose. I think this is also what Shane is saying. And I think you critisize our hospitals without really knowing there reason's for doing what they do. Maybe there clinics are setup to help counsel those that come in for an abortion, and if they choose to have it anyway, at least they will be in a clean and steroil invironment. And not out in some butcher shop!!!! That's all I'm saying. Its still there choice no matter how we look at it. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 What if those who you say would like to think for others are really more interested in trying to persuade others to CHOOSE an alternative view for themselves? This is what we should be doing. Instead of trying to use the civil government to force our view on others, we should seek to persuade others to choose our view. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 ...at least they will be in a clean and steroil invironment. And not out in some butcher shop!!!! pk The thing is that most of these girls that choose abortion are not in their right mind. There are in panic mode. They not thinking clearly. In countries where abortion is legal, crisis pregnancy centers can make a real impact. Thousands of girls come to crisis pregnancy centers each year and are persuaded not to have abortions. They don't go to crisis pregnancy centers in Mexico, Kenya and other such countries where abortion is illegal because they are too afraid to tell anyone their secret. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 14, 2009 Members Share Posted November 14, 2009 I agree shane. I've mentioned in a earlier post of how some are very much afraid of there parents, boyfriends etc. And want no one to know that they are pregnant. My daughter had a friend with that problem. But she never mentioned that until the girl had the precedure done. Otherwise if she needed someone to talk to I would have given it a shot, in convincing her to let her parents know anyway and than make this dissision for or not. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: doug yowell With all due respect,Shane, you seem to know almost nothing factual about abortion. Have YOU spent a couple hundred hours in a CPC?? I doubt it. If you did you would have been the ONLY person there who wanted abortion to be legal!! Not true. One of our volunteer nurses favored keeping it legal for exactly the logic I expressed. I think an advantage I have is that I live on the Mexican border. Just 12 miles south of me abortion is illegal. Those of us that live here don't have to speculate what it would be like if abortion was illegal. We know what it is like. In fact, I found most of those working in the crisis pregnancy center did not want to take a political position on abortion. They just wanted to save the children and help those that had aborted children to heal. Shane, your expressed desire to have abortion legal IS a political position so that would put you in the minority at your self described CPC. How does living 12 miles north of the Mexican border give you an advantage in knowing what illegal abortion is like?? If you were 12 miles (how many kilometers is that?)south I might be more inclined to understand, but since you're still in the U.S...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I agree shane. I've mentioned in a earlier post of how some are very much afraid of there parents, boyfriends etc. And want no one to know that they are pregnant. My daughter had a friend with that problem. But she never mentioned that until the girl had the precedure done. Otherwise if she needed someone to talk to I would have given it a shot, in convincing her to let her parents know anyway and than make this dissision for or not. pk What??? Abortion policies and legalities are purposely designed to make it more difficult for the minor to inform their parents! It presents the woman with the undetectable opportunity to get rid of the evidence. If given this option why should any underaged girl choose otherwise? And why are they afraid? Because of the pressure to kill their unborn baby. Crisis Pregnancy Centers are necessary,legalized abortion is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: doug yowell What if those who you say would like to think for others are really more interested in trying to persuade others to CHOOSE an alternative view for themselves? This is what we should be doing. Instead of trying to use the civil government to force our view on others, we should seek to persuade others to choose our view. We've never done that with slavery,alcohol,tobacco,prostitution,public nudity,seat belts,drug use,other types of murder,ect...ect...ect...ect...ect... why is abortion different? Your logic implicates Ellen White for her tireless efforts to change the U.S. Constitution in order to force her views of alcohol use on an unsuspecting nation! Are you ready to go there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Banning alcohol was quite different. The biggest distinction is that it actually worked. Alcohol consumption dropped dramatically under prohibition. Banning abortion doesn't work. Banning abortion actually increases it because those in crisis pregnancy are afraid to seek the counseling that many times will persuade them not to abort. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 "Every individual exerts an influence in society. In our favored land, every voter has some voice in determining what laws shall control the nation.Should not that influence and that vote be cast on the side of temperence and virtue?"(GW 387) If the consumption of alcohol demanded a political response opposing it what does the killing of the unborn require,a vote FOR it's legality??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 The civil government isn't the solution for every problem. Just because the civil government can solve some problems doesn't mean it can solve all of them. Abortion is a fine example of a social problem civil government cannot solve. The rate of abortion is actually higher in nations where it is banned. That is the opposite of what we want. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Why is it that I have a different view of abortion? We don't have a different view on abortion. We have a different view of the church's role in the end times. I believe the church should be trying to win hearts and minds and you believe the church should be lobbying legislative halls and funding political movements. We both agree that abortion ends a human life. I believe life begins at conception. Shane, I believe that, as long as we are in this world, we have the privilege ant duty to do both, help others spiritually by preaching the good news of the Gospel, and also vote for candidates who are more likely to protect the lives and property of all human beings living in our country. When Ellen White was alive, the production and sale of alcoholic beverages was a very controversial political issue. Did Ellen try to avoid the issue because it had been politicized? On the contrary, she fought hard to exert her influence on society. She gave us a good example in this respect. Sunday laws are another example where we have a privilege and duty to participate in the public dialogue. Did Adventists become silent when Sunday laws became politicized? On the contrary, we did raise our voices to make sure our opinion was heard and we published our Religious Liberty magazine. If we have felt that our freedom to worship God on the correct day of the week was important, why are you suggesting that we need to silence our voices when an entire generation of unborn human beings is being mercilessly slaughtered both by non-Adventists and Adventist physicians? Is worshipping God on the correct day of the week sacrosanct, while the right to life of no consequence for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Quote: Banning abortion actually increases it because those in crisis pregnancy are afraid to seek the counseling that many times will persuade them not to abort. First of all, there is no evidence at all for this fatuous argument. Indeed, one would have to deduce from the number of abortions annually that there must have been many more abortions when it was in fact illegal. The year for which there is most recent data indicates that about 23% of U.S. pregnancies end in abortion. Within a decade or Roe v. Wade, this rate was 30% So, pace Shane's reasoning, that means that an even higher percentage of pregnancies must have been terminated by abortion before 1973. Since Shane would have us believe that abortion rates declined after it was legalized, we are asked to believe that it must have been greater than 30% before. Apparently, we are to believe that one in every three pregnancies (or more) routinely ended in abortion in the period before 1973. When one considers that more than 3 million live births occurred in 1970, there must have been about more than a million abortions that year. Absurd on its face. Second, the same logic can be applied to absolutely any crime. It must be that more people commit murder because there is no counseling center to persuade them not to. More theft must occur because, when people are considering stealing, there are no theft counseling services available to dissuade them. Oh, and since these counseling services would be offered instead of making theft illegal, this would decrease theft. So, there's the solution for the crime problem. Make everything legal, and there is no crime. While we're at it, repeal every law that people break, or want to. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Banning alcohol was quite different. The biggest distinction is that it actually worked. Alcohol consumption dropped dramatically under prohibition. Banning abortion doesn't work. Banning abortion actually increases it because those in crisis pregnancy are afraid to seek the counseling that many times will persuade them not to abort. I hate to say it this way,Shane, but you seem to leave us no choice. You're living in your own make believe world where what you say is true because you say it is. The FACT that 19 years after Roe v. Wade legalized abortion on demand, abortions had gone from 98,000 to nearly 1.6 MILLION is not a decrease in numbers. It is a 150% INCREASE after LEGALIZATION!!! To argue that banning abortion actually increases the numbers of abortions is intellectually incoherent. Even with the introduction of the CPC abortion rates have only dropped slightly (about 25%) over the past 8 or 10 years and are now on the rise again. Even those figures can't attribute all the decrease directly to the work of the CPC's. At the lowest point there are still more than 12x the number of abortions performed today than when it was still illegal.Still, recorded facts should not even be necessary here, common sense should be adaquate.One last fact: 70% of women polled last year said that they would be LESS likely to get an abortion if it was illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Good post rudywoofs, it seems many would like to think for others, when the God of this universe has given each one of us the right of choosing. Even if that choice is wrong. Because ultimately we are responsable to him not those that think that they are right and all others are wrong. pk Pkrause, Would you apply the same logic, the right to choose, to other crimes of less drastic consequences, like rape, incest, burglary, and sexual abuse of children? If not, why not? Many small children who were victims of sexual abuse grow up to become useful citizens. Said privilege is not open for the victims of abortion. A woman who has been raped may eventually heal and live an almost normal life. This option is not available to the victims of abortion. The right to choose is not eliminated when abortion is illegal, neither is the right to steal, rape or kill. The government does not prevent people from committing criminal acts. Anybody has the right to shoot at the president, and some have done so, but there are drastic consequences for said criminal acts. Why should we exempt abortionists from the moral consequences of dismembering the bodies of unborn children? They pull their legs and arms from the baby’s body. Is this something that you feel should have no consequence? If you were to witness someone pulling a child’s arm and legs from their sockets, would you say: “They should have said right to choose’? If we would not tolerate such violent acts against a born child, why do we tolerate when the same violence is manifested towards the unborn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 STOP with all that logic stuff,Buster,you're killing me!! I think you should go to a counseling center (so you won't do that anymore) besides, I think it's against the rules! P.S. Isn't the "Man of Sin" also referred to as the "Lawless One" in II Thess.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Quote: I think you should go to a counseling center (so you won't do that anymore) besides, I think it's against the rules! very perceptive of you. I'm sure I will soon be admonished. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 The facts are facts. Some people are so intent on forcing their morality on others that they will ignore the facts. I can't do that. I have to be honest with myself. I want to actually decrease the number of abortions not just force my will on others. The facts tell us that more abortions are performed in nations where abortion is banned than in nations where abortions are legal. Especially where abortions are legal and yet restricted. I am too honest with myself to ignore the truth about that matter. Good conscience demands that I look out for the unborn and not just a political ideology. I am more concerned about saving lives than playing politics. That is why I am pro-choice and favor restricting abortion. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Quote: The facts tell us that more abortions are performed in nations where abortion is banned than in nations where abortions are legal. fundamental logical fallacy post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Even if your 'facts' are indeed correct, it makes no difference. You are assuming a causal relationship between the two, when there are many other factors. And it has nothing to do with 'forcing morality,' any more than laws against murder or theft are forcing morality. If you really oppose forcing morality, then you should be opposed to hate crime legislation, which punishes thoughts and attitudes rather than actions. The state has an interest in preventing the destruction of its citizens. Indeed, if there are no citizens, there is no state. That's a significant reason why states have laws against murder, and why they raise armies. That is sheer pragmatism and basic logic. No religious or other authority is referenced. It has nothing to do with morality. Moral arguments can be made, but they are not necessary to justify banning an activity. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Quote: The facts tell us that more abortions are performed in nations where abortion is banned than in nations where abortions are legal. fundamental logical fallacy post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Even if your 'facts' are indeed correct, it makes no difference. You are assuming a causal relationship between the two, when there are many other factors. And it has nothing to do with 'forcing morality,' any more than laws against murder or theft are forcing morality. If you really oppose forcing morality, then you should be opposed to hate crime legislation, which punishes thoughts and attitudes rather than actions. The state has an interest in preventing the destruction of its citizens. Indeed, if there are no citizens, there is no state. That's a significant reason why states have laws against murder, and why they raise armies. That is sheer pragmatism and basic logic. No religious or other authority is referenced. It has nothing to do with morality. Moral arguments can be made, but they are not necessary to justify banning an activity. Amen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haldog Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I am more concerned about saving lives than playing politics. I do not believe you. Pro-choice is about politics, there is nothing moral about it. Causing children to "pass through the fire" as God puts it, is wrong, and there is a special place in hell for those who advocate it. Quote "You may not agree with everyone. But if you are an honest man, when someone says something you disagree with it’ll drive you to the Word. If you find out that you were wrong and change your thinking then you are the better for it. If you go to the Word and find out that you were right then you have been strengthened. But either way always go to the Word!!” Billye Brim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 And it has nothing to do with 'forcing morality,' any more than laws against murder or theft are forcing morality. It is about forcing morality because it ignores the facts against it. Laws against murder and theft actually serve to reduce the occurrence of those crimes in society. Banning abortion does not do that. It actually does the opposite. By criminalizing abortion we prevent girls from seeking counseling which increases the rate of abortion. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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