Planned Parenthood's abortion quotas exposed

[Twilight]

Jesus said He came to bring us Life! I decided a couple years ago to choose jesus' Life over the dogmatic teachings of a pro-baby-killer church. I'm not willing to risk the salvation of myself or my family on a church that is blatantly laughing at my God and His innocent unborn children.

I can sympathise with your view. :-(

But sometimes the best place to fight is from the inside.

Mark :-)

[Nic Samojluk]

Like I said earlier, this is nothing new. All this information was already known. Planned Parenthood is in the abortion business and makes a lot of money from it.

The Seventh-day Adventist church is not pro-choice. The church does not take a political position. There are many in the church that are pro-choice because they are so paranoid of the Sunday laws. They think if the government has the right to stop a pregnant woman from murdering her child, that same government can enforce a Sunday law. I think that is quite a leap but paranoia knows no bounds.

I am pro-choice because studies have shown less abortions are performed per capita in countries where abortion is legal but restricted than in countries where it is banned. My goal is to reduce the number of abortions. I was very happy to see an anti-abortion amendment added the House's version of health-care reform last night.

Shane,

I do agree with most of your comments. There is no doubt that PP is in the business because abortion is quite profitable. Dr, Edward Allred, who graduated from Loma Linda University back in 1964 discovered that and became a millionaire in the process. His original interest was ministry, but then he switched to medicine. When he retired, he sold his large chain of abortion clinics to another Adventist who even today is in good standing with the church. Why? Because our official guidelines on abortion justify the killing of innocent babies under such a wide variety of circumstances including when the baby is unwanted and the pregnant woman claims that her "mental health" is being affected.

I am not sure, though, what you mean when you state that the “Adventist Church is not pro-choice.” That was precisely the topic of my doctoral dissertation. I do agree that those who succeeded in altering the official position of the church from a pro-life position to one that justifies abortion were moved by paranoia; nevertheless, I can’t see how we can suggest that the church is not pro-choice! I spent several years trying to read everything we published about abortion between 1970 and 2006 and concluded that our church is officially pro-choice, which means that we believe that is morally justifiable to dismember or poison innocent babies under a variety of circumstances. This is what our “Guidelines on Abortion” spell out. I wish you would read my doctoral dissertation, which is online at http://sdaforum.com/page13.html . I wonder whether you think that I am all wet.

I also question the statistics which claim that there are less abortions in countries where abortion is legal. Such statistics are generated by Planned Parenthood. If the tobacco industry tried to convince you that those who smoke are less likely to develop lung cancer, would you believe? Consider what happened after abortion was legalized. The number of abortions mushroomed into a million and a half in less than a decade. No statistics for the number of abortions existed prior to 1973. Abortion defenders claim over a million. Guttmacher [Planned Parenthood] reported only 744,600 for 1973, but it mushroomed to a million by 1975.

[Nic Samojluk]

These policies might work to reduce the number of abortions, but wouldn't be legal, today:

Any woman requesting an abortion will be required by law to watch a video of an actual abortion.

Any woman requesting an abortion will be required by law to have her tubes tied following the procedure.

...

What happens to all of those unwanted babies that haven't been aborted?

What happens to the little bodies of all those unborn babies that have been killed?

Aliensanctuary,

Yes, those policies you described would reduce the number of abortions. I hope and pray the time may come when they are implemented. When the slavery issue was being debated, the defenders of said infamous institution utilized all kinds of arguments to justify the enslavement of innocent human beings for the sake of profit. Now society justifies the actual killing of a particular group of human beings for the same reason. Slavery is terrible, but a slave could hope for the day when he might be freed and enjoy life. Such hope is denied the unborn that is being aborted. Originally, our Adventist medical institutions tried to justify the killing of the unborn by labeling the procedure as “therapeutic abortions.” Since when killing another human being has become a form of therapy. If it is truly therapy, would the defenders of abortion accept such therapy for themselves?

You did ask the following probing question: “What happens to all of those unwanted babies that haven't been aborted?” I think that I can answer this question as follows. The fifty million of unborn babies that were aborted, had they been allowed to live, they would by now be working to support the boom generation which are ready to retire and who are beginning to wonder who is going to replenish the bankrupt social security fund. We certainly need them now, but we killed them thinking that there is such a thing as a free lunch.

[Nic Samojluk]

I'm definitely against abortion, but you know exactly what will happen if this is cut out. Woman will than go to butcher shops to have this procedure. This is the reason why they have abortion clinics now. I believe that they get counciling there and if not they should be. They need to know how that decision will affect the rest of there life's. But to say that this should not be part of HC is wrong, because one way or the other they will have it done and we will have many deaths to contend with as before.

pk

Pkrause,

Yes, many women will go to a butcher shop for an abortion; others will use a coat hanger or ask their boyfriends to stomp on their stomach. Is this a good reason for butchering the innocent baby ourselves? Serial rapists quite often kill their innocent victims. Does it follow, though, that we should start killing women because many of them might get killed by rapists?

Your arguments that “one way or the other they will have it done and we will have many deaths to contend with as before” is not supported by statistics provided by Planned Parenthood, an organization very interested in preserving the legality of abortion. No accurate statistics for the number of abortions existed prior to 1973. Abortion defenders claim over a million. Such a claim is contradicted by Guttmacher [Planned Parenthood] which reported only 744,600 for 1973, the year abortion was legalized. Said number mushroomed to a million by 1975, and the number doubled to a million and a half in less than a decade.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Thanks Nic, I'm concerned for the church also. They are heading down a bad road in more ways than one.

I will probably start posting some of it tomorrow. Thanks again.

Is knocking down our church allowed on this forum. I think it might be against the rules. At least I hope so.

Redwood,

You are right. Criticizing some of the church policies might be against this forum rules. The real question which we need to ask is: Is it against God’s rule which forbids the shedding of innocent blood? Which set of rules should have priority, human tradition of God’s Ten rules? And notice that the liberal attitude of our church concerning the killing of the unborn is a new tradition adopted by our church for the sake of profit. Read the history of how this started. Our Adventist pioneers were definitely pro-life and they described the practice of abortion as a violation of the Sixth Commandment.

What happened is that in 1970 the State of Hawaii legalized abortion and the non-Adventist physicians who worked at our Castle Memorial Hospital demanded the right to offer elective abortions to their patients, and they threatened to take their patients elsewhere in the event they were denied such a privilege. The hospital managers asked the North American Division for advice, and the president of the NAD made a public declaration that the Adventist Church was leaning towards abortion because there was too much hunger of too many people in the world.

Imagine if Moses had used a similar argument and started killing the Israelites in the desert where there was no food for the people! Incredible! The NAD president arguing in the richest country of the world that it was morally justifiable to start killing a certain group of human beings because there was overpopulation and hunger in the world. The Adventist Church capitulated because there was fear that our hospital might be in financial trouble if we resisted the temptation to start killing the unborn.

Should we be silent because criticizing the church might be against the rules of this forum? If we are silenced, the stones will eventually cry out!

[Nic Samojluk]

I for one am glad of the direction the church is going in...pointing to God as our leader, taking away the dogma of fear, admitting that God gave us the H*S to lead and guide on an individual basis, that the death of Christ finalized the plan of salvation, ie, that we have been saved, we can look to future with assurance, the days of nit-picking are over, human invention, that we have much more to learn and well, most of all "we are free"!

Sorry folks, ain't no one gona' drag me into the past, the present and the future are looking mighty good!!

CoAspen,

The real question should be: Is the Lord pleased with the “direction the church is going in”? Can the Lord be pleased when one of his Ten Rules is being violated by the “Remnant” church—the church which “keeps” God’s Commandments? We Adventists used to criticize the Church of Rome for altering the Fourth Commandment of the Decalogue. Now we have done the same with the Sixth, and you are pleased with the direction the church is moving?

[Woody]

Yes. I too am pleased with the position and direction of the church. It is most certainly Spirit lead.

[Woody]

"The highest authority under God among Seventh-day Adventists is found in the will of the body of that people, as expressed in the decisions of the General Conference" Ellen White in PC 422

" I have been shown that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man. But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon the earth, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be maintained, but surrendered." Ellen White in PC 422

"When, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body." Ellen White in 9T p.260

By ignoring the authority of the church, they show contempt for God, who gave to the church its authority. {ST, January 25, 1883 par. 3}

[SivartM]

Redwood, there were times when Ellen White expressed the opposite sentiment because of things that were happening in the church. Since we don't know what she'd say NOW, we shouldn't assume that the church is infallible and just leave it at that.

What if Jones and Waggoner had decided not to upset the current theological opinion? We'd still be stuck in legalism.

I definitely think that our church needs to change its policy on abortion.

[Woody]

Quote:

I definitely think that our church needs to change its policy on abortion.

Then by all means ... make arrangements to head to Atlanta.

[Woody]

Quote:

What if Jones and Waggoner had decided not to upset the current theological opinion? We'd still be stuck in legalism.

Praise God ... ever since May 1,1957 ... we have made great strides to move away from Legalism. (May 1,1957 was the day I was born and good things have been happening ever since) An inside but yet half truthful joke.

[Guest]

You can do it Sivart.

[Woody]

You can do it Sivart.

What can he do?

[Guest]

Quote:

What if Jones and Waggoner had decided not to upset the current theological opinion? We'd still be stuck in legalism.

Praise God ... ever since May 1,1957 ... we have made great strides to move away from Legalism. (May 1,1957 was the day I was born and good things have been happening ever since) An inside but yet half truthful joke.

I was born on May 23 1959

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

You can do it Sivart.

What can he do?

You told him to go to Atlanta.

[Woody]

Ahhhh. You're just a youngster.

[Dr. Shane]

The Guidelines on Abortion spell out what the church believes to be sinful and not sinful. They do address abortion from a political standpoint. The Adventist church does not take a political position on abortion. The guidelines state "abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned by the Church..." I agree with that position.

If we want to reduce the number of abortions (as I do) the best way to do that is keep it legal and pass laws to restrict it.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

I'm definitely against abortion, but you know exactly what will happen if this is cut out. Woman will than go to butcher shops to have this procedure. This is the reason why they have abortion clinics now. I believe that they get counciling there and if not they should be.

pk

We don't have to speculate on what *would* happen if abortion was illegal. There are plenty of countries where abortion is illegal. One of them is our southern neighbor, Mexico. Women do go to butcher shops and we can estimate how many abortions are performed by the number of women that go to emergency rooms or die after botched abortions.

Here in the US our abortion rate is about 20 per 1,000. In the Netherlands it is about 9 per 1,000. In Mexico, where it is illegal, it is 33 per 1,000.

Shane,

Could you tell us the source of your data? Is it Planned Parenthood perhaps? Have you read the book “How to Lie With Statistics”? How about the “Confession of an Ex-Abortionist” by Dr. Bernard Nathanson? Here is a portion of his confession:

*********

“I am personally responsible for 75,000 abortions. This legitimizes my credentials to speak to you with some authority on the issue. I was one of the founders of the National Association for the Repeal of the Abortion Laws (NARAL) in the U.S. in 1968.

A truthful poll of opinion then would have found that most Americans were against permissive abortion. Yet within five years we had convinced the U.S. Supreme Court to issue the decision which legalized abortion throughout America in 1973 and produced virtual abortion on demand up to birth. How did we do this? It is important to understand the tactics involved because these tactics have been used throughout the western world with one permutation or another, in order to change abortion law.

THE FIRST KEY TACTIC WAS TO CAPTURE THE MEDIA

We persuaded the media that the cause of permissive abortion was a liberal enlightened, sophisticated one. Knowing that if a true poll were taken, we would be soundly defeated, we simply fabricated the results of fictional polls. We announced to the media that we had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favor of permissive abortion. This is the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalizing abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalization. ...

***********

To read the rest of the fabricated lies and misinformation, click on the following Internet link:

http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html

[Dr. Shane]

Shane,

Could you tell us the source of your data?

The links are in my post but this same information is available from a variety of sources. It is pretty well accepted.

[Nic Samojluk]

[Nic Samojluk]

Yes. I too am pleased with the position and direction of the church. It is most certainly Spirit lead.

Redwood,

Spirit led does not mean sinless. Consider the Israelites in the Desert. They were led by the Lord himself, yet how many mistakes they made and how many times they failed to live up to God’s expectation. Do you think that we Adventists are doing much better? We were called to be God’s “Remnant” who keep God’s commandments. Do we keep them? We do fault the Church of Rome for altering the true meaning of the Sabbath. We in turn have compromised on the Sixth one. The question should be: Is the Lord pleased with this departure from a clear “Thus said the Lord”?

By the way, my dog thinks that I am a saint. Does this mean I am one?

[Woody]

Quote:

By the way, my dog thinks that I am a saint. Does this mean I am one?

The dog has nothing to do with it. I am a saint because of MY decision ... not his. I hope the same for you.

[Nic Samojluk]

"The highest authority under God among Seventh-day Adventists is found in the will of the body of that people, as expressed in the decisions of the General Conference" Ellen White in PC 422

" I have been shown that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man. But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon the earth, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be maintained, but surrendered." Ellen White in PC 422

"When, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body." Ellen White in 9T p.260

By ignoring the authority of the church, they show contempt for God, who gave to the church its authority. {ST, January 25, 1883 par. 3}

Redwood,

Are you suggesting that the decisions of the General conference have priority over one of the Ten Commandments? That is the position of the Church of Rome which claims to have the right to alter the Fourth Commandment. Do you really believe that the General Conference is infallible in all its decisions? Are you of the opinion that Ellen White always believed that the General Conference spoke as the voice of God? Notice what she also wrote about the General Conference:

*********

“The General Conference is itself becoming corrupted with wrong sentiments and principles. . . .” {LDE 49.2}

“The high-handed power that has been developed, as though position has made men gods, makes me afraid, and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised.”--TM 359-361 (1895). {LDE 49.4}

“The voice from Battle Creek, which has been regarded as authority in counseling how the work should be done, is no longer the voice of God.”--17MR 185 (1896). {LDE 50.2}

“It has been some years since I have considered the General Conference as the voice of God.”--17MR 216 (1898). {LDE 50.3}

*********

Have you read everything Mrs. White wrote about the authority of the General Conference? Can you string a few quotations from what she wrote and conclude that it represents the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Do the Red books supersede the Bible?

[Nic Samojluk]

Redwood, there were times when Ellen White expressed the opposite sentiment because of things that were happening in the church. Since we don't know what she'd say NOW, we shouldn't assume that the church is infallible and just leave it at that.

What if Jones and Waggoner had decided not to upset the current theological opinion? We'd still be stuck in legalism.

I definitely think that our church needs to change its policy on abortion.

SivartM,

Yes! Did you hear my loud AMEN? I believe my neighbors did, and are probably wondering about my sanity.

[Nic Samojluk]

Praise God ... ever since May 1,1957 ... we have made great strides to move away from Legalism. (May 1,1957 was the day I was born and good things have been happening ever since) An inside but yet half truthful joke.

Redwood,

How can you say that? You were not here before 1957! I was, and can testify that terrible things took place after 1957. Adventist hospitals in America introduced the notion that abortion under certain circumstances deserved to be considered as therapy a few years after 1957 thus preparing the way for elective abortions in our medical institutions. By 1970 we had one hospital performing elective abortions, and a few years later other of our hospitals followed suit. Now, fifty millions of dismembered and poisoned innocent babies, you think that “good things have been happening ever since”?

We certainly did move away from legalism since 1957 and from morality as well. Adultery and fornication which God condemned is now practiced by our church members on a routine basis and if an unwanted pregnancy results, NO PROBLEM, since we now have Adventist and non Adventist abortion clinics to take care of the problem. All this with the blessing of the church; you seem to rejoice while I weep, and I do believe that God’s angels are weeping as well.