Planned Parenthood's abortion quotas exposed

[Nic Samojluk]

The Guidelines on Abortion spell out what the church believes to be sinful and not sinful. They do address abortion from a political standpoint. The Adventist church does not take a political position on abortion. The guidelines state "abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned by the Church..." I agree with that position.

If we want to reduce the number of abortions (as I do) the best way to do that is keep it legal and pass laws to restrict it.

Shane,

Yes, the problem is that the same guidelines also state that killing the unborn is morally justifiable if the baby is the result of rape, incest, when there are malformations, when the female is a minor, and even when the woman is faced with an unwanted pregnancy which is affecting her “mental health.” God did forbid the shedding of innocent blood and condemned the murder of human beings; the church says you can kill innocent human being under the above circumstances. Isn’t this what pagans did during Roman and pre Roman times? The only difference is that they did so after the child was born, we do it before birth. They sacrificed the lives of unwanted children in honor of their god Moloch. We do it for profit and for convenience.

What kind of justice are we defending? The rapist is allowed to live, while we kill the innocent. When a handicapped individual is killed, we call it murder; if the same human being is killed before birth, we say that there is no moral guilt. If a wanted unborn baby is killed, we treat it as murder, but if the baby is not wanted and is dismembered prior to birth no crime has been committed. All a pregnant woman needs to say to an abortionist is: This pregnancy is affecting my mental health, and bingo, another human life is sacrificed on the altar of convenience.

You say that our church does not take “a political position on abortion;” but we have no problem taking a position on smoking in spite of the fact that the production of tobacco has been politicized. We strive to extend the life of smokers by five or six years with our smoking cessation programs, but won’t move a finger to extend the lives of millions of innocent children whose lives are cut short at inception. We did support the effort to made slavery illegal, but have no interest in making the genocide of the unborn illegal as well. We are rather eloquent in defense of our right to worship the Lord on the correct day of the week, but look the other way while innocent human beings are routinely torn to pieces whose tiny limbs are pulled away from their bodies.

If this were done to babies that were lucky to have made it through the loop, we would be horrified and would immediately call 911. Since this is done in the privacy of the abortionist clinic, we think this is kosher in the eyes of God. God forbid that I should agree with you on this!

[Guest]

Here is a moving interview with the lady in the OP from Planned Parenthood.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/just...-life-advocate/

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Shane,

Could you tell us the source of your data?

The links are in my post but this same information is available from a variety of sources. It is pretty well accepted.

Shane,

Thanks for the info. I did check your original comments and the links are there as is evident from your posting:

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“Here in the US our abortion rate is about 20 per 1,000. In the Netherlands it is about 9 per 1,000. In Mexico, where it is illegal, it is 33 per 1,000.”

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I can’t say very much about the data for Netherlands, but the other two sources are from Guttmacher Institute, which was originally founded and managed by Planned Parenthood. Here is the evidence:

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“The Center was originally constituted as a semiautonomous division of Planned Parenthood Federation of America (PPFA). Its early development was nurtured by Alan F. Guttmacher, an eminent obstetrician-gynecologist, teacher and writer who was PPFA's president for more than a decade until his death in 1974. The Center was renamed in Dr. Guttmacher's memory, and the Guttmacher Institute became an independent, not-for-profit corporation in 1977.”

http://www.alanguttmacherinstitute.org/about/history.html

"The Guttmacher Institute, an independent, nonprofit, tax-exempt organization with offices in New York and Washington, D.C., was established in 1968 to provide research, policy analysis and education in the fields of reproductive health, reproductive rights and population. It was named to honor a distinguished obstetrician-gynecologist, author and leader in reproductive rights. While Alan F. Guttmacher was president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America and a leader in the International Planned Parenthood Federation in the 1960s and early 1970s, he saw the need for the institution that now bears his name, and he nurtured its development."

http://www.alanguttmacherinstitute.org/about/alan-bio.html

*********

My question to you: Do you see a conflict of interest here. Would you trust the tobacco industry to provide the statistics for deaths connected with the smoking habit? This is especially significant considering what Dr. Bernard Nathanson’s confession of how the statistics were falsified by those who worked for the legalization of abortion.

*********

"We persuaded the media that the cause of permissive abortion was a liberal enlightened, sophisticated one. Knowing that if a true poll were taken, we would be soundly defeated, we simply fabricated the results of fictional polls. We announced to the media that we had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favor of permissive abortion. This is the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S.

The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalizing abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalization."

http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html

[Dr. Shane]

I live on the Mexican boarder so I have no problem at all believing those statistics. The best way to deal with the abortion issue is by supporting Crisis Pregnancy Centers. I financially support Care Net. Jesus said it well when He said, "If My Kingdom were of this world, then would My soldiers fight." We have a much higher calling than to try and reform civil government. We must try to reach the heart and convince people of their need for Christ. It is apostate Protestantism that tries to use the civil government to enforce the church's doctrine. That is not us. That is not Adventism.

[doug yowell]

Shane, Let me see if I get this right. If, as you claim, abortion rates drop in states where abortion is restricted, it would only seem to logically follow that abortion rates would be lowered even more drastically in states (or countries) that outlawed abortion completely. Using your statistical percentages, if 20 out of every 1000 legal abortions resulted in the hospitalization or death of the mother that would translate into 24-30,000 (depending on which abortion figure one uses)dead or injured women per year in the U.S. today. If criminalization of abortion cut the abortion rate in half (that's pretty conservative) and we then use the 33 out of 1000 figure (and please, we're comparing with Mexico!??!!)that translates into 20,130-24,750 casualties. An actual savings of 20%!! Either way there's still the nearly 1000 out of 1000 unborn human beings that are killed whether the abortions are legal or not.Are they irrelevent?Do you think that the best way to reduce the number of alcholics in the U.S. is to open up more AA chapters?

[Guest]

Good point Doug.

[doug yowell]

I live on the Mexican boarder so I have no problem at all believing those statistics. The best way to deal with the abortion issue is by supporting Crisis Pregnancy Centers. I financially support Care Net. Jesus said it well when He said, "If My Kingdom were of this world, then would My soldiers fight." We have a much higher calling than to try and reform civil government. We must try to reach the heart and convince people of their need for Christ. It is apostate Protestantism that tries to use the civil government to enforce the church's doctrine. That is not us. That is not Adventism.

Shane, It's truely regretable that you weren't alive 125 years ago when you could have clarified for our SDA pioneers who Adventism really was. Particularly that mislead cofounder that wasted so much of her time in trying to convince Adventists to work to reform the civil government and bring them in line with our "abstinence" doctrine. If only those "apostates" had not tried to abolish slavery and had spent their time reaching people's hearts instead...who knows how spiritual we would be today?

[Nic Samojluk]

The best way to deal with the abortion issue is by supporting Crisis Pregnancy Centers. I financially support Care Net. Jesus said it well when He said, "If My Kingdom were of this world, then would My soldiers fight." We have a much higher calling than to try and reform civil government. We must try to reach the heart and convince people of their need for Christ. It is apostate Protestantism that tries to use the civil government to enforce the church's doctrine. That is not us. That is not Adventism.

Shane,

How about reforming the Adventist church? If “the best way to deal with the abortion issue is by supporting Crisis Pregnancy Centers,” then how come the Adventist Church won’t support such endeavor? How come there are no Adventist Crisis Pregnancy Centers? A few years ago George Lawson, a young energetic Adventist, started one in Loma Linda. The Adventist response was so apathetic and the opposition so strong that he relocated to Hemet and joined the Riverside Seventh-day Baptist Church. I wrote to the General Conference several times suggesting that it was time for Adventists to start a program on behalf of the unborn, and I sent pro-life financial contributions both to my local church and to the General Conference on several occasions begging the leadership to do something about this anomaly. Each time my donations were returned with the following observation: “The church does not have a pro-life program.”

You state that we have a higher calling as a church. Can you specify said calling? Ellen White told us that Jesus spent more time alleviating the suffering of people than preaching. Today’s suffering associated with women in crisis surpasses anything we have seen in the past. The victims are not only those women, but also the fifty million of human beings who have perished at the hands of Adventist and non Adventist physicians who have willingly ignored the fact that their mission is healing and are engaged in the art of killing for the sake of filthy profit. How can we as a church preach Jesus Christ and his mission of mercy for those who suffer and at the same time bless those engaged in killing innocent human beings? How believable is our testimony if we are willing to bless what the Lord as cursed?

[Nic Samojluk]

Shane, It's truely regretable that you weren't alive 125 years ago when you could have clarified for our SDA pioneers who Adventism really was. Particularly that mislead cofounder that wasted so much of her time in trying to convince Adventists to work to reform the civil government and bring them in line with our "abstinence" doctrine. If only those "apostates" had not tried to abolish slavery and had spent their time reaching people's hearts instead...who knows how spiritual we would be today?

Doug,

Good thinking! Glad to see you trying to help us untangle this dilemma! The Adventist pioneers did not share the view that we should be mere spectators. Ellen White was very active in the temperance movement and her audience on occasion reached up to five thousand participants. Look what Uriah Smith, a long time editor of the Advent Review, said about political involvement dealing with moral issues:

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Quote:

You show me a church that fails to take a stand on political issues that involve moral principles, [6] and Ill show you a church that is spineless, irrelevant, and morally bankrupt. . . . No issue is too controversial for us to address and honestly in pages of our church paper. [7]

http://sdaforum.com/page114.html

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Given our official position on abortion and our apathy towards the plight of the unborn, no wonder our Adventist Church is not growing in North America, while it is growing by leaps and bounds in many countries where abortion is still illegal.

[Dr. Shane]

If, as you claim, abortion rates drop in states where abortion is restricted, it would only seem to logically follow that abortion rates would be lowered even more drastically in states (or countries) that outlawed abortion completely?

In short, No.

When a nation outlaws abortion, like Kenya or Mexico, it creates an abortion black market. Pregnant women that become panicky must choose to either go to a black market abortionist or carry the baby to term. Faced with only those options, many go to the abortionist.

When abortion is legal but restricted, the woman has a third option. She can seek counseling about her decision. This is where pregnancy counseling centers come in. Women in countries like Mexico are too afraid to go to such counseling centers because once the "tell" someone their secret that person could report them if they do not carry the baby to term. Seeking counseling about the decision simply isn't an option when abortion is illegal. Because it is an option where abortion is legal, God-fearing people are given an opportunity to intervene. As a result there are less abortions.

[Dr. Shane]

How come there are no Adventist Crisis Pregnancy Centers?

If this is something God is calling you to do, perhaps you need to look in the mirror and ask that question.

[phkrause]

Good post Shane. I'm in agreement with you. What people seem to forget is that, abortion be it legal or illegal, many young woman will still choose to have an abortion. At least if its legal and have a place to give them advice they might not make the choice to have that abortion. Which is a choice between them and God not them and anyone of us.

pk

[there buster]

Quote:

What people seem to forget is that, abortion be it legal or illegal, many young woman will still choose to have an abortion.

Funny thing, no one ever says that about murder or theft, although, demonstrably that is also true.

Maybe we should have homicide and larceny counseling centers. No one can choose for murderers or thieves either. That's why crimes of all sorts continue to occur.

[Dr. Shane]

Abortion is better compared to drug addiction than murder or theft. (Although I do believe abortion is murder)

Making drugs illegal is effective in preventing people from using them and becoming addicted. It is not effective in preventing those already addicted from finding and using them.

In many aspects, a woman with a crisis pregnancy is like a drug addict. She is afraid, ashamed and panicky. The law means very little to her. Just like drugs being illegal doesn't stop the addict from using them, abortion being illegal doesn't stop a woman from getting one. So we want to somehow be able to intervene in the crisis pregnancy so we can deal with the fear, shame and panic.

[phkrause]

Again a very good post Shane. When I was younger I knew a few girls that got pregnant and were very much afraid of having to tell there parents or anyone for that matter that they were pregnant. If there were counseling centers and they had someone to speak to maybe they would have not gone through with the abortion.

pk

[bonnie]

Again a very good post Shane. When I was younger I knew a few girls that got pregnant and were very much afraid of having to tell there parents or anyone for that matter that they were pregnant. If there were counseling centers and they had someone to speak to maybe they would have not gone through with the abortion.

pk

That was then. I don't know of many girls that have gotten pregnant are either ashamed or scared in the last 10-15 years.

They know they can have an abortion or continue the pregnancy and have all expenses taken care of.

[phkrause]

Yes even now I see and hear the same thing. As much as things change, things seem to stay the same.

pk

[there buster]

Quote:

In many aspects, a woman with a crisis pregnancy is like a drug addict. She is afraid, ashamed and panicky. The law means very little to her.

People murder because of panic. They steal because of panic. The law means very little to them. So why don't we have murder counseling or theft counseling? Why isn't that their choice (and no one else's)?

[bonnie]

Quote:

People murder because of panic. They steal because of panic. The law means very little to them. So why don't we have murder counseling or theft counseling? Why isn't that their choice (and no one else's)?

Give them time,that is sure to come.

[Dr. Shane]

People murder because of panic.

The comparison isn't there. Do a couple hundred hours of volunteer work in a crisis pregnancy center and then come back to topic.

[there buster]

Quote:

Do a couple hundred hours of volunteer work in a crisis pregnancy center and then come back to topic.

Take a couple of courses in basic logic, and then Christian Ethics, with a course on character development, and then you can come back to the topic.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: there buster

People murder because of panic.

The comparison isn't there. Do a couple hundred hours of volunteer work in a crisis pregnancy center and then come back to t

opic.

With all due respect,Shane, you seem to know almost nothing factual about abortion. Have YOU spent a couple hundred hours in a CPC?? I doubt it. If you did you would have been the ONLY person there who wanted abortion to be legal!! The only SDA CPC was started in my mother's condo. I think that after almost 20 years of being involved with CPC's I know why they exist. And it's not to justify the legalization of abortion.Your "logic" is mind boggling... legalize the killing of more humans so there will be a greater need for crisis pregnancy centers. I don't think that even Planned Parenthood would fall for that one. Even a child knows that when something is against the rules FEWER kids will try to engage in that something, NOT MORE.And why,does abortion have to be legal in order for CPC's to exist? Why couldn't they be there for the women who were contemplating breaking the law? Sorry, but I'm having a hard time believing that you have given much serious thought to this.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

If, as you claim, abortion rates drop in states where abortion is restricted, it would only seem to logically follow that abortion rates would be lowered even more drastically in states (or countries) that outlawed abortion completely?

In short, No.

When a nation outlaws abortion, like Kenya or Mexico, it creates an abortion black market. Pregnant women that become panicky must choose to either go to a black market abortionist or carry the baby to term. Faced with only those options, many go to the abortionist.

When abortion is legal but restricted, the woman has a third option. She can seek counseling about her decision. This is where pregnancy counseling centers come in. Women in countries like Mexico are too afraid to go to such counseling centers because once the "tell" someone their secret that person could report them if they do not carry the baby to term. Seeking counseling about the decision simply isn't an option when abortion is illegal. Because it is an option where abortion is legal, God-fearing people are given an opportunity to intervene. As a result there are less abortions.

Shane,

If your theory is right, then reason would lead us to conclude that in order to reduce the number or criminal acts we should legalize drug dealing, rape, burglary, sexual abuse of minors, and even murder. If it works for abortion, it should work for all other criminal and violent acts.

I have pointed out to the fact that your statistics come mainly from the Guttmacher Institute, founded by the first president of Planned Parenthood. PP aim is not reducing the number of abortions, but rather, as Abby Johnson, the former executive manager of the Texas PP office, testified in the article listed above:

"They really wanted to increase the number of abortions so that they could increase their income."

I said this before, and I am repeating what you prefer to ignore: It would be foolish to rely on statistics about the incidence of lung cancer provided by the tobacco industry. Likewise,we shoudn't trust Guttmacher's statistics.

Guttmacher Institute reported only 744,600 abortions for 1973 but this number mushroomed to a million by 1975, and to one million and a half by 1983, which means that the number of abortions according to your favorite source, by their own admission, doubled in the first decade after Roe v Wade. http://www.grtl.org/docs/roevwade.pdf. How can you claim that legalizing abortion tends to reduce the number of unborn babies being killed?

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

How come there are no Adventist Crisis Pregnancy Centers?

If this is something God is calling you to do, perhaps you need to look in the mirror and ask that question.

Shane,

I did, and God told me to continue doing what I have been doing for the last two decades. He has been guiding my efforts all these years. I must be faithful to my call. David wanted to build a temple for the Lord, and God told him to merely prepare the materials for it.

[Nic Samojluk]

Good post Shane. I'm in agreement with you. What people seem to forget is that, abortion be it legal or illegal, many young woman will still choose to have an abortion. At least if its legal and have a place to give them advice they might not make the choice to have that abortion. Which is a choice between them and God not them and anyone of us.

pk

Pkrause,

Please read my response to Shane where I cite statistics provided by the Guttmacher Institute showing the opposite effect which resulted from the legalization of abortion.