Nic Samojluk Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Quote: What people seem to forget is that, abortion be it legal or illegal, many young woman will still choose to have an abortion. Funny thing, no one ever says that about murder or theft, although, demonstrably that is also true. Maybe we should have homicide and larceny counseling centers. No one can choose for murderers or thieves either. That's why crimes of all sorts continue to occur. There Buster, We certainly should and also legalize all criminal activity in order to reduce the number of crimes. Isn’t it strange that abortionists apply such faulty logic only to abortion, but not to burglary, rape, incest, and sexual abuse of children? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Abortion is better compared to drug addiction than murder or theft. (Although I do believe abortion is murder) Making drugs illegal is effective in preventing people from using them and becoming addicted. It is not effective in preventing those already addicted from finding and using them. In many aspects, a woman with a crisis pregnancy is like a drug addict. She is afraid, ashamed and panicky. The law means very little to her. Just like drugs being illegal doesn't stop the addict from using them, abortion being illegal doesn't stop a woman from getting one. So we want to somehow be able to intervene in the crisis pregnancy so we can deal with the fear, shame and panic. Shane, I cited in a previous response to you evidence from your favorite source, the Guttmacher Institute, a Planned Parenthood organization, showing that the legalization of abortion produced the opposite effect. I hope you will read said posting. We shouldn’t bury our heads in the sand and keep ignoring what is obvious from the true facts which are available to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Again a very good post Shane. When I was younger I knew a few girls that got pregnant and were very much afraid of having to tell there parents or anyone for that matter that they were pregnant. If there were counseling centers and they had someone to speak to maybe they would have not gone through with the abortion. pk Pkrause, Counseling centers do a wonderful job. A young man named George Lawson started one in Loma Linda over a decade ago. He faced such opposition and apathy from Adventists that he got discouraged, left Adventism, relocated his office to Hemet, and joined the Riverside Seventh-day Baptist Church. The Adventist Church and most Adventists here in Loma Linda do not want any counseling centers near our hospital. Why would Adventists be interested in counseling centers if the church states that abortion is justifiable in such a variety of circumstances, including when the woman claims that the unwanted pregnancy is affecting her mental health. For many years the owner of one of the largest abortion clinics in California was owned by a former Adventist who graduated from Loma Linda University and became a millionaire in the process. He sold it to another Adventist who even today is in good standing with the Adventist church. He believes that he is providing a valuable service to women in crisis. This is the reason the General Conference is not interested in creating a pro-life program within its organization. I have asked the GC several times to do something about this but every time it fell on deaf ears. Every time I send a financial contribution to either my local church of the GC my check is returned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Quote: In many aspects, a woman with a crisis pregnancy is like a drug addict. She is afraid, ashamed and panicky. The law means very little to her. People murder because of panic. They steal because of panic. The law means very little to them. So why don't we have murder counseling or theft counseling? Why isn't that their choice (and no one else's)? There Buster, Great reasoning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Quote: People murder because of panic. They steal because of panic. The law means very little to them. So why don't we have murder counseling or theft counseling? Why isn't that their choice (and no one else's)? Give them time,that is sure to come. Bonnie, Perhaps our police and our military should be replaced with counseling centers staffed with psychiatrists like Hassan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted November 12, 2009 Members Share Posted November 12, 2009 Quote: Perhaps our police and our military should be replaced with counseling centers staffed with psychiatrists like Hassan. That remark was uncalled for, in my opinion. Who do you think you are, coming into the forum like a wild Banshee waving your sword about abortion rights and acting like you're the expert just because you did some PhD thesis on abortion? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Originally Posted By: there buster People murder because of panic. The comparison isn't there. Do a couple hundred hours of volunteer work in a crisis pregnancy center and then come back to topic. Shane, Perhaps you should listen to Saint Paul for a change. He was of the opinion that God gave the church the sword of the spirit, but to the government a real sword in order to hold crime activity in check. Jesus engaged in counseling most of his life, but at one point he resorted to more drastic measures. He “entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.” [Matt. 21:1] There is a limit to what counseling can accomplish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 With all due respect,Shane, you seem to know almost nothing factual about abortion. Have YOU spent a couple hundred hours in a CPC?? I doubt it. If you did you would have been the ONLY person there who wanted abortion to be legal!! The only SDA CPC was started in my mother's condo. I think that after almost 20 years of being involved with CPC's I know why they exist. And it's not to justify the legalization of abortion.Your "logic" is mind boggling... legalize the killing of more humans so there will be a greater need for crisis pregnancy centers. I don't think that even Planned Parenthood would fall for that one. Even a child knows that when something is against the rules FEWER kids will try to engage in that something, NOT MORE.And why,does abortion have to be legal in order for CPC's to exist? Why couldn't they be there for the women who were contemplating breaking the law? Sorry, but I'm having a hard time believing that you have given much serious thought to this. Doug, I am with you 100 percent. We would never suggest counseling centers for parents determined to dismember the bodies of their born babies, so how can we defend the counseling approach for the unborn? Killing is killing whether the baby is inside or outside the woman’s belly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Quote: Perhaps our police and our military should be replaced with counseling centers staffed with psychiatrists like Hassan. That remark was uncalled for, in my opinion. Who do you think you are, coming into the forum like a wild Banshee waving your sword about abortion rights and acting like you're the expert just because you did some PhD thesis on abortion? Rudywoofs, If my remarks offended you I apologize. The main point I have been trying to emphasize is that the counseling which is offered at the crisis pregnancy centers, though very valuable for many babies, will never stop the mass genocide of the unborn. Consider the following: If someone were threatening someone you love with a gun or a knife, would you call a psychiatrist or the police? Why do we call the police? Because he/she comes with a gun and knows how to shoot straight. Between two and three thousand babies are killed by abortionists on a daily basis because both the government and the church have decided that there is no moral harm involved in such action and if someone were to call 911, the caller would probably be arrested. This means that it is the government the one holding the gun or knife and executing babies on a large scale. The power of counseling has very limited power, and yet our church won’t even sponsor this type of legal intervention. Why? Because four decades ago, when the abortion controversy was going strong, our church sided with the abortion business, which led us to the creation of our “Guidelines on Abortion,” which in turn prepared the way for five of our hospitals to offer elective abortions, which encouraged some of our Adventist physicians to profit from the killing of the unborn in a large chain of private abortion clinics owned by Adventists. My aim is, and what I have been praying for, is for my Adventist Church to get out of the abortion business. If Catholic hospitals can survive without offering abortion services to their clients, so can ours; and if some of our hospitals were to fail, so be it; at least our hands would be free from the blood stains of innocent babies who did not ask to be conceived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Quote: Perhaps our police and our military should be replaced with counseling centers staffed with psychiatrists like Hassan. That remark was uncalled for, in my opinion. Who do you think you are, coming into the forum like a wild Banshee waving your sword about abortion rights and acting like you're the expert just because you did some PhD thesis on abortion? Nic, Go to your room and don't come out until you learn to how to behave yourself!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Not to long ago a man hired another to attack and punch his pregnant girlfriend hard enough in the stomach to lose the baby. She went into labor and delivered a 6 month not sure what,a fetus or a baby? Her baby lived for 10 days and then passed away. Babies father was sentenced to life in prison for murder. What did he murder? Did this fetus? become a baby,a innocent child because the mother wanted her. When does the transformation take place and then become a child Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 With all due respect,Shane, you seem to know almost nothing factual about abortion. Have YOU spent a couple hundred hours in a CPC?? I doubt it. If you did you would have been the ONLY person there who wanted abortion to be legal!! Not true. One of our volunteer nurses favored keeping it legal for exactly the logic I expressed. I think an advantage I have is that I live on the Mexican border. Just 12 miles south of me abortion is illegal. Those of us that live here don't have to speculate what it would be like if abortion was illegal. We know what it is like. In fact, I found most of those working in the crisis pregnancy center did not want to take a political position on abortion. They just wanted to save the children and help those that had aborted children to heal. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Shane If this is something God is calling you to do' date=' perhaps you need to look in the mirror and ask that question. [/quote'] I did, and God told me to continue doing what I have been doing for the last two decades... Why are you asking why there are no Adventist Crisis Pregnancy Centers when you know that there are and you are even running one? That brings your credibility into question. It seems you are not being sincere in this discussion. That was a dishonest question. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Shane, Perhaps you should listen to Saint Paul for a change. I think it was Jesus Who said, "My kingdom is not of this world, if it was, then would My servants fight." I think that is pretty good advice. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Who said anything about fighting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Do we belong to the kingdoms of this world or of the next? Do we fight political governments to pass civil laws or do we fight spiritual battles to win hearts? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Why are you asking why there are no Adventist Crisis Pregnancy Centers when you know that there are and you are even running one? That brings your credibility into question. It seems you are not being sincere in this discussion. That was a dishonest question. Nic, quick,hide the ultrasound machine and pretend that you don't know what Shane's talking about!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Not to long ago a man hired another to attack and punch his pregnant girlfriend hard enough in the stomach to lose the baby.She went into labor and delivered a 6 month not sure what,a fetus or a baby? Her baby lived for 10 days and then passed away. Babies father was sentenced to life in prison for murder. What did he murder? Did this fetus? become a baby,a innocent child because the mother wanted her. When does the transformation take place and then become a child Bonnie, Good question! Evidently the boyfriend murdered a real baby because the man the boy hired did not have a license to kill. Had he hired an abortionist, it would have been merely a “product of conception” and no crime would have been committed. For two thousand years physicians were prevented from killing unborn babies. This changed when the State of Hawaii legalized abortion and Adventists were sold on the idea that performing an abortion could be treated as therapy. Our Adventist physicians called this “therapeutic abortions.” Of course, said procedure was no therapy for the baby and I have heard of no Adventist physician asking for such therapy for themselves. This kind of therapy was concocted in hell by the devil himself, who has been a murderer from the beginning! Doug: Will you send me to my room again as punishment for my misbehavior? Perhaps we need to sanitize what is written in the Bible. This morning I was reading what Saint Paul did write in his letter to the Galatians. If I were to use some of his language, I bet I would be in big trouble again from some of this forum saints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: doug yowell With all due respect,Shane, you seem to know almost nothing factual about abortion. Have YOU spent a couple hundred hours in a CPC?? I doubt it. If you did you would have been the ONLY person there who wanted abortion to be legal!! Not true. One of our volunteer nurses favored keeping it legal for exactly the logic I expressed. I think an advantage I have is that I live on the Mexican border. Just 12 miles south of me abortion is illegal. Those of us that live here don't have to speculate what it would be like if abortion was illegal. We know what it is like. In fact, I found most of those working in the crisis pregnancy center did not want to take a political position on abortion. They just wanted to save the children and help those that had aborted children to heal. Shane, You consider that living on the Mexican border to be an advantage because you can see what happens in a country where abortion is still illegal. If this is an advantage, then let me tell you: I lived for over a quarter of a century in a country where abortion was illegal, and is still illegal—Argentina. Since I lived inside said country and not simply near the border of it, I conclude that I must have a good idea what it means to live where killing innocent human beings is illegal. Why is it that I have a different view of abortion? Could it be that I still believe what the Holy Book teaches about shedding the blood of innocents? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Shane, I am running a crisis pregnancy center? Wow! This is big news for me. Shane, methinks you are pretending to be in total ignorance of what it means to run a crisis pregnancy center. I recommend that you click on the following Internet link and get properly educated on this: http://www.cpcanchorage.com/understanding_pregnancy.html People who come to my office do so in search of a home, a condominium, or a piece of land. I run a real estate office. Pro-life activities is my hobby to which I have been devoting half of my time because I care about my church. I believe that the Lord has called our Adventist pioneers to be God’s “Remnant” on earth, the ones keeping God’s Commandments and have the faith of Jesus. Twisting the true meaning of the Sixth Commandmemnt is not the task of God’s Remnant. It is the job of the enemy of truth. I have asked the General Conference more than once to start a pro-life program without success. Each time I send a financial donation for said purpose, the money is send back to me. In this we are failing as a church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Shane, Perhaps you should listen to Saint Paul for a change. I think it was Jesus Who said, "My kingdom is not of this world, if it was, then would My servants fight." I think that is pretty good advice. Shane, Yes, but remember that Jesus devoted his entire life to healing—not killing! Did Jesus ever perform an abortion? Our hospitals should get out of the killing business. In this, the Church of Rome has given us a good example, and we have been labeling it as the “Beast.” What do beasts of prey do? They target and devour the most vulnerable victims. This is what abortionists do, and some Adventists are profiting from this type of business. As Adventists we have a double duty: To preach the good news of God’s spiritual kingdom, and as citizens to vote for candidates who will protect the life and the property of all human beings within its jurisdiction. Refusing to vote for the best candidates for office would be a dereliction of our civic duties. Jesus said: Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God. We cannot neglect one of the two with impunity. Eventually, we will have to render an account of the way we have performed our duty both to God and to Caesar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Why is it that I have a different view of abortion? We don't have a different view on abortion. We have a different view of the church's role in the end times. I believe the church should be trying to win hearts and minds and you believe the church should be lobbying legislative halls and funding political movements. We both agree that abortion ends a human life. I believe life begins at conception. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alixromanov Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Am I in the SDA Twilight Zone? My Bible says "He knew me me in my mother's womb." Who am I to question God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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