Israel in Prophecy

[David_McQueen]

In light of Daniel 9, Gal 3 and Rom 9-11 I would love to explore with other forum members the role of Israel in Prophecy.

The key issues I would like to address are

1) What it means to be grafted on to Israel

2) The foundation for the concept of "spiritual Israel"

3) A remnant still in Israel

4) Whether the Abrahamic covenant still applies to all his descendants, Jew or Gentile.

Any one care to join in? Starting off whether if we consider that Israel are still God's chosen people.

[David_McQueen]

Ok first position here is that Israel is still God's chosen people, and that even if they have messed up in being the exclusive carriers of the message they are still children of the promise, and non-Israelites are still being grafted on to this body.

More later/.....

[there buster]

Respectfully disagree.

Israel was always a community of faith and never a community of blood.

That is the community into which everyone who has faith is grafted.

[Gerr]

1. While Abraham's descendants by blood were the VISIBLE people chosen by God as His people, Paul makes it clear in Rom 2:27-29 that the real circumcision, the real Jew is the one who has been circumcised in the heart.

2. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek or Gentile; that when we belong to Christ, then we are Abraham's offspring, heirs to the promises also. This is obviously not talking about blood descendants, rather this is spiritual kinship.

3. In Dan 9, "70 wks" or 490 yrs were given to them to "finish transgression, to make an end of sin, etc. etc.". That ended 2k yrs ago.

4. Jesus, recognizing that that prophecy was about to be fulfilled told them, "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate" Mt 23:38. On Tuesday of the Passion Week, He gave them the parable of the vine-growers. Because they refused to give the owner his due, the sentence pronounced was that the vineyard was to be given to others, Mk 12. Contrary to what our evangelical brethren believe, no, present Israel cannot no longer be God's chosen. Present day Israel is very secular, and the religious ones still have the veil over their eyes & still wait for a Messiah to come the first time.

5. In Rom 11, Paul uses the metaphor of the olive tree. This olive tree CANNOT be the Israel of flesh & blood because flesh & blood Israelites were broken off, those who did not believe. As Paul says in Heb, they (adults that came out of Egypt) did not enter the promised land because of unbelief. So, IMO, the olive tree is spiritual Israel into which wild olive branches (Gentiles), & the cultivated branches that were broken off (unbelieving Jews/Israelites), could be grafted in.

6. I believe the Abrahamic Covenant, the spiritual aspects of it, still applies today to his spiritual descendants. His flesh & blood descendants have their literal home in Israel, but spiritual Israel still looks for that city, "whose builder & maker is God."

Gerry

[Kevin H]

Good study, what we need to keep in mind is the difference between land theology and exile theology. Land theology was when the land was the center of the world, right at the crossroads for the trade routes between Asia, Africa and Europe.

After the time of Christ, as Europe became stronger, the land went more prephery, sea trade grew and the spread to the Americas, thus the land cannot meet what it could have centuries ago.

But there are promises in the Bible to the decendents of Abraham (both through Isaac and Abraham's other children) the Egyptains, and the church. What is sad is that we have people who look at God's promices to them, at the expence of the other promises.

But for examples of how God is still using Jews to bless us, and a foretaste of what God is hoping to do even more of, look at the testimony of the Diary of Anne Frank, "Fear No Evil" by Nathan Sharonski (the last name is close, but I think I'm a little off in the spelling) Herman Wouk's "This is My God" the artwork of Marc Chagall, and even more so the work of Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heshel.

[Robert]

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God is still using Jews to bless us

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How is that? The majority has continued to deny Christ as the Savior of the world. How is it that we are being blessed through those of unbelief????

Let’s review some basic points:

Rom 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin....

Rom 9:27 “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant [a fraction] will be saved."

First of all, God doesn't have favorites for that is partiality and favoritism is sin.

Second of all God doesn't have this infatuation with the Jews that the majority of the Christian Church does. What God has done is used Abraham [who is the Father of the Jews]as a model of all whom will be saved:

Rom 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—[:"red"]not only to those who are of the law [i.e., the Torah - those Jews who have the faith of Abraham][/] but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.

Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[David_McQueen]

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Respectfully disagree.

Israel was always a community of faith and never a community of blood.

That is the community into which everyone who has faith is grafted.

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What is the scriptural premise for this argument?

[there buster]

If it is a community of blood, then Ishmael is actually the firstborn of Abraham.

When Israel left Egypt, the mixed multitude went along, as part of the nation.

Ruth and Rahab were "grafted in" because of their faith.

The Hebrew word used to designate Israel, kneset, means "assembly" or "congregation" not nation or clan. It's also the word used for the Israeli pariliament today.

If Israel is a community of blood, then you have the problem of different modes of salvation in different eras.

Even if Israel was a community of blood, the OT demonstrates that it was merely a physical relationship, not a spiritual one.

Paul makes that concrete in 1 Cor 15.

[David_McQueen]

Ok just a couple of points so that we are all in agreement in some fundamental points

1) Where the children of Israel, to whom God made promises, descendants of Jacob or a congregation of belivers?

2) Is a Jew an Israelite, or merely a descendant of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin?

In light of answers to this question and those raised previously, maybe it could shed some light on the whole grafting question number 1, with relation to Romans 11.

Thoughts

[David_McQueen]

Ed, just on reflection on your definition of Israel, how do you understand the following

And who is like your people Israel-the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt? [:"brown"] [/] 2 Sam 7:23

[there buster]

2 Sam 7 is a dialogue between David, King of Israel, and Nathan, speaking for the Lord.

In the verse cited, of course, Israel existed as a national entity, with a monarch. God is reminding David that the nation he now rules was nurtured and redeemed by God.

As I already pointed out, however, that very group included the "mixed multitude." So the group of which Nathan is speaking was not a community of ethnicity, but those who followed the pillar of fire.

Caleb, one my personal OT heroes was not ethnically an Israelite. He was "the son of Jephunneh, the Kennizite" Num. 32:12

The Kennizites are mentioned in Gen 15 as one of the tribes to be dispossessed by Abram's children.

"It seems clear that God is making a strong statement here concerning His 'Chosen People;' that the character of a man is more important than his ethnicity. In any event the Scriptures make it clear that Kalev was the son of Jephunneh who was a Kenizzite. Thus, there can be no doubt that Kalev was a Goy"

http://www.yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/guest/?page=caleb_the_goy

Once again, a community of faith.

I don't necessarily endorse all the teachings of that website, however, they offered a useful summary of the evidence, so I thought it only fair to cite them.

[David_McQueen]

Thank you Ed

[DaveM1936]

The promises made to ancient Israel were made on condition of their faithfullness to the Lord. Paul says that the orginal branches (Jews) were cut off from Christ (the trunk). Then Gentil branches were graphed in. Paul adds that if the graphed in branches are not true to Jesus, then they will be removed just like the Jews were.

"Before ascending to heaven, Christ gave His disciples their commission. He told them that they were to be the executors of the will in which He bequeathed to the world the treasures of eternal life. You have been witnesses of My life of sacrifice in behalf of the world, He said to them. You have seen My labors for Israel. And although My people would not come to Me that they might have life, although priests and rulers have done unto Me as they listed, although they have rejected Me, they shall have still another opportunity of accepting the Son of God. You have seen that all who come to Me confessing their sins, I freely receive. Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out. To you, My disciples, I commit this message of mercy. It is to be given to both Jews and Gentiles--to Israel, first, and then to all nations, tongues, and peoples. [:"red"] All who believe are to be gathered into one church. [/]" {AA 27.2}

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

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If it is a community of blood, then Ishmael is actually the firstborn of Abraham.

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Ishmael was not the child of promise. Ishmael is the result of works, in this case Abraham tried to help God with His promise.

Otherwise Paul covers the issue between these two sons of Abraham in Gal 4:21-24: "Tell me, you who want to be under the law [under a works program], are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman [Hagar] and the other by the free woman [sarah]. 23 His son [ishmael] by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son [isaac] by the free woman [sarah] [:"red"]was born as the result of a promise.[/] 24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants.

Paul goes on to use Isaac & Ishmael allegorically....He uses these two boys to represent two camps:

1] Those who receive salvation by God's promise

2] Those who try to help God, through works, keep His promise.

To see more of this truth you need to go to Gal 3:6-9 -- Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

[there buster]

Thank you for making my point.

Every piece of evidence you adduced backs up my position that Israel was always a community of Faith, not of blood.

The complement of the Promise is Faith. It was because Abraham had faith in God's promises that he was the father of the faithful.

Anyone who had faith in God's promises could be part of Israel--even in the OT. Thus the mixed multitude, thus Caleb, Ruth, Rahab-- you get the idea.

In terms of blood, Ishmael is the firstborn. He is the natural, physical child. But that's OK. The spiritual always supercedes the physical, even in the OT.

Again, see 1 Cor 15. It's key to this whole debate.

[Robert]

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.

All men, both Jew and Gentile, have already been gathered into Christ. Thus, by His doing and dying, the promise to Abraham has been fulfilled. What is left is to accept that gift....

[Ron Amnsn]

These are important questions, David. It seems that a large segment of Christianity is teaching that God has broken his covenants with hereditary Israel. If God has indeed broken his covenants with Israel, then can God be trusted? When Abraham, Isaac, and Jacab are raised from the dead, will they discover that God has fulfilled His end of the promises and covenants that were given to them, or will they discover that God has reneged -- that God changed the terms of the covenants after the original recipients of those promises and covenants died.

We often hear about how Paul or some other theologian has re-interpreted the promises and covenants so that they refer to "spiritual Israel" rather than to the literal descendants of Abraham or Jacob. But in the end, it is not Paul's interpretation, or our own interpretations that will determine whether or not God is faithful to his promises. The interpretation that really counts is the way Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob understood the promises and covenants when they received the covenants directly from God for themselves and their descendents. At the resurrection, will these men testify that God has fulfilled his promises as they were originally given? Or will God say to these men, "I know it looks like I've failed to keep my covenants, but if you'll just go talk with Paul over there, he'll explain to you what I really meant when I made those promises to you."

Christians often speak of the covenants with Israel as if they were conditional. But that is not how the Scriptures speak of the covenants. Consider the last verses of Jeremiah 33:

[:"blue"]“Have you not observed what this people have spoken, saying, ‘The two families which the Lord chose, He has rejected them’? Thus they despise My people, no longer are they as a nation in their sight. Thus says the Lord, ‘If My covenant for day and night stand not, and the fixed patterns of heaven and earth I have not established, then I would reject the descendants of Jacob and David My servant, not taking from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.’ ”[/](NASB)

The covenant for day and night is found in Genesis 8:22. It is an unconditional covenant, as were the covenants God made with Abraham and Israel.

More later...

[there buster]

Nevertheless, the covenants were always with the community of faith, never the community of blood. The OT record surprisingly backs this up; Paul just points it out in 1 Cor. 15.

[Ron Amnsn]

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Israel was always a community of faith and never a community of blood.

That is the community into which everyone who has faith is grafted.

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I agree that non-Israelites have always been able to join up with, or be grafted into Israel, as Ruth did. However, even Paul differentiates between natural branches and us wild branches that can be grafted in to the tree of Israel.

[:"blue"]... how much

more

will these who are the natural branches be grafted into

their own

olive tree. [/] (Rom 11:24 NASB)

So there is apparently still something special about being a natural Israelite.

[there buster]

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So there is apparently still something special about being a natural Israelite.

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Actually, that's precisely the point Paul makes in 1 Cor. 15. We are not grafted into natural Israel, but into spiritual Israel.

If they were naturally a part of Israel, why would they need to be grafted in?

One can be born a natural Israelite, i.e., a Jew "according to the flesh," and become grafted into spiritual Israel.

What Paul is saying is that natural Jews, i.e., Jews by blood, should have an even greater affinity to being grafted in.

[Robert]

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So there is apparently still something special about being a natural Israelite.

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You got to be kidding? James 2:9 states that "If you show partiality you commit sin."....It seems you are inadvertently making God a sinner.

I've said the same thing to other Christians who are hung up on this non-sense. You know what their reply is? "God can do what He wants!" And my reply is, "God is not above His own law - therefore God can't sin."

Rethink your stance!

Rob

[Ron Amnsn]

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1. While Abraham's descendants by blood were the VISIBLE people chosen by God as His people, Paul makes it clear in Rom 2:27-29 that the real circumcision, the real Jew is the one who has been circumcised in the heart.

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Yes, but...

This passage in Romans 2 is the basis of the notion of a so called "spiritual Israel" that is separate from hereditary Israel, so we should look closely at the characteristics of a Gentile who becomes a "real Jew". What are those characteristics as mentioned by Paul?

[:"blue"]Romans 2 (NASB)

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,[/]

(Notice that this doesn't happen when they do "whatever they think is right", but only when they actually "do the things of the Law" by instinct.)[:"blue"]

15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them...

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.[/]

Hmmm... It looks like Paul expected these Gentiles who were "inwardly Jews" to be behaving the way real Jews were supposed to be behaving -- keeping the law. That's seems quite a bit different than what is taught by most Christians who claim to be part of "spiritual Israel".

What Jewish characteristics does the average Christian exhibit which could identify them as "inwardly Jewish" ?

Many Christians try to take the phrase "not by the letter" and make it say "not by living according to the written law", but that is quite a stretch considering that living by the law is what Paul says makes a Gentile a "inward Jew". I believe what Paul was referring to by "not by the letter" was the method of determining who was Jewish and who wasn't. According to the letter of the law anyone who was born of Jewish ancestors was Jewish, and anyone who wasn't, wasn't a Jew. Paul was teaching that being Jewish by heredity wasn't enough. It was also a matter of having a heart led by the Spirit to want to follow the law.

(I'm not saying that keeping the law saves a person -- it doesn't. But a person who has been saved will love the instructions of the God who has redeemed him.)

[there buster]

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Rethink your stance!

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I'm trying to figure out what makes you think you're entitled to take such a tone. Perhaps you might want to reconsider your attitude.

[Ron Amnsn]

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So there is apparently still something special about being a natural Israelite.

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You got to be kidding? James 2:9 states that "If you show partiality you commit sin."....It seems you are inadvertently making God a sinner.

[...]

Rob

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The partiality that James is talking about is not the kind of partiality that you are talking about. God's covenant with Israel was a "racist" covenant from the beginning. If you were born an Israelite, you were in -- if you were born outside the people of Israel, you were out. Of course if you were born out of the covenant, you could join yourself to Israel as Ruth did, and as the mixed multitude did, by throwing their lot in with Israel. God chose the nation of Israel as he chose no other nation, and he says so plainly in the Old Testament.

As to partiality... take a look at Romans 2:9-11(NASB)

[:"blue"] 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,

10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God. [/]

Obviously, the non-partiality of God still allows for the Jews to be "first". That's a racial thing, isn't it?

[there buster]

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This passage in Romans 2 is the basis of the notion of a so called "spiritual Israel" that is separate from hereditary Israel,

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Actually, Jesus himself differentiates between Abraham's blood descendants, and his spiritual ones.

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“If you were Abraham's children,” said Jesus, “then you would do the things Abraham did. John 8:40

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And before you talk about "obedience" again, note this

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Abram believed the LORD , and he credited it to him as righteousness. Gen 15:6

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Abraham's status always revolved around his faith.