AR Special Report: Marriage, Homosexuality, & the Church

[CGMedley]

Andrews University recently held a landmark conference on homosexuality and the church. Here's a special report from the Adventist Review.

http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=2963

[phkrause]

Imagine to my surprise dgrimm, that issue arrived today. So I can read it and be right there with all you others. hahahahaha

pk

[Woody]

Kudos to your male person.

[phkrause]

I believe dgrimm it has more to do with the AR than the snail mail.

pk

[Fausto]

Without wanting to become critical...I was taken aback to see that there are even some SDA gay pastors...goodness!

Anyway. My view here is in line with the article, we cannot condemn the sinner but the sin, we are actually supposed to love the sinner but not the sin, something they mention in the article which is missing from the church.

As far as we SDA's go, we have a policy, "sola scriptura", therefore digressing from that is breach of policy! If we're going to get technical that is!

Last but not least I am in no way immune from this at all, so when I say this I mean it for myself too!

[Dr. Shane]

I am not surprised to discover there are gay pastors. Being gay actually serves to draw some people closer to the Lord. Once convicted of the sinfulness of gay behavior, the look toward Christ to find victory and in their struggle become closer to the Lord than most average believers are.

[Fausto]

Which would make them previously gay pastors, right?

Then I can agree but one cannot be a pastor and still be gay and practice it, and still preach it is not right!

Such happens to previous gangsters, druggies, etc! Once they re[pent they tend to be on fire for the Lord!

[Stan]

Will the witch hunt start for these folks? Several have given years of faithful and active service.

[teresaq]

i guess the purpose is to expose the "jehus" among us.

Quote:

Let us get a picture of Jehu from the sacred record. “The driving is like the driving of Jehu, the son of Nimshi; for he driveth furiously” (2 Kings 9:20). Jehu was a driver, and he has descendents today. He was furious against the apostasy and heresy of Ahab and rightly so, but there was something that he lacked. He lacked love.

Jehu was full of zeal. Watch him in action. “When he was departed thence, he lighted on Jehonadab the son of Rechab coming to meet him: and he saluted him, and said to him, Is thine heart right, as my heart is with thy heart? And Jehonadab answered, It is. If it be, give me thine hand. And he gave him his hand; and he took him up to him into the chariot. And he said, Come with me, and see my zeal for the Lord. So they made him ride in his chariot. And when He came to Samaria, he slew all that remained unto Ahab in Samaria, till he had destroyed him, according to the saying of the Lord, which he spake to Elijah” (2 Kings 10:15-17, emphasis supplied).

Jehu was doing God’s work but not in God’s way. Yet, God used him. Baal worship needed to be rooted out, and Jehu did it, but I am afraid we won’t see Jehu in heaven.

I am calling attention to this because I read something in the book Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, p. 333: “All who are longing for some engagement that will represent Jehu riding furiously will have opportunity enough to distinguish themselves.”

So Jehu’s chariot still rides, and like Jehu of old, some today will stop the chariot just long enough to say, “Is your heart right as my heart is? If it is, get in and ride with me; we’re going to go places and destroy Baal worship in Israel. Let me show you my zeal for the Lord.”

Notice this inspired comment, an Ellen G. White statement in The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 2, p. 1038:

Men are slow to learn the lesson that the spirit manifested by Jehu will never bind hearts together. It is not safe for us to bind our interests with a Jehu religion, for this will result in bringing sadness of heart on God’s true worshipers. God has not given any of His servants the work of punishing those who will not heed His warnings and reproofs. When the Holy Spirit is abiding in the heart, it will lead the human agent to see his own defects of character, to pity the weakness of others, to forgive as he wishes to be forgiven.

Part of the ministry of heresies is to give an opportunity for Jehus to manifest themselves. However, because some in the church militantly defend the faith, get out their swords, and ride the chariot zealously, is no evidence that they will be with God’s people at the finish.

[Dr. Shane]

I certainly have a problem with a person that is a pastor and teaches that it is OK to be gay. Regardless if the person is gay or not, that teaching is not in line with the Adventist beliefs.

There are gay Christians just like there are alcoholic Christians. These people (both gay and alcoholic) often struggle with their "demons". What if we let an alcohol go through the seminary and become a past and he has a "slip" - a temporary relapse. Do we fire him? Does he lose his credentials? I would hope not. What if we allow a gay person to go through the seminary and become a pastor and he has a "slip" - a tempoary relapse?

[John317]

Andrews University recently held a landmark conference on homosexuality and the church. Here's a special report from the Adventist Review.

http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=2963

Thanks so much for posting this. I agree with the entire group of articles and with everything in them, particularly with this official statement by the church:

Quote:

The Seventh-day Adventist Church recognizes that every human being is valuable in the sight of God, and we seek to minister to all men and women in the spirit of Jesus. We also believe that by God's grace and through the encouragement of the community of faith, an individual may live in harmony with the principles of God's Word.

Seventh-day Adventists believe that sexual intimacy belongs only within the marital relationship of a man and a woman. This was the design established by God at creation. The Scriptures declare: "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh" (Gen. 2:24, NIV). Throughout Scripture this heterosexual pattern is affirmed. The Bible makes no accommodation for homosexual activity or relationships. Sexual acts outside the circle of a heterosexual marriage are forbidden (Lev. 20:7-21; Rom. 1:24-27; 1 Cor. 6:9-11). Jesus Christ reaffirmed the divine creation intent: "'Haven't you read,' he replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator "made them male and female," and said, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh?" So they are no longer two, but one'" (Matt. 19:4-6, NIV). For these reasons Adventists are opposed to homosexual practices and relationships.

Seventh-day Adventists endeavor to follow the instruction and example of Jesus. He affirmed the dignity of all human beings and reached out compassionately to persons and families suffering the consequences of sin. He offered caring ministry and words of solace to struggling people, while differentiating His love for sinners from His clear teaching about sinful practices.

MY ONLY POINT IN ALL MY WRITINGS ON THIS SUBJECT ON THIS OR ANY OTHER THREAD HAS BEEN TO SHOW THAT THE PRACTICE OF HOMOSEXUALITY IS WRONG AND THAT THE CHURCH MUST CONTINUE TO VIEW THE PRACTICE AS SINFUL. But wherever that message goes MUST also go the glorious good news about the power of God to forgive and help sinners overcome their sins.

We aren't helping anyone, though, if we teach them that their sins are not sinful or wrong and that they can see the kingdom of God while practicing sins that the Bible says will keep them out of the kingdom. 1 Cor. 6: 9-11; Rev. 22:15.

[Woody]

Which would make them previously gay pastors, right?

Then I can agree but one cannot be a pastor and still be gay and practice it, and still preach it is not right!

Such happens to previous gangsters, druggies, etc! Once they re[pent they tend to be on fire for the Lord!

I know of a pastor who eats to much sugar. Should we kick him/her out because of that sin? Which sins disqualify one for being a pastor?

[Fausto]

Originally Posted By: Fausto

Which would make them previously gay pastors, right?

Then I can agree but one cannot be a pastor and still be gay and practice it, and still preach it is not right!

Such happens to previous gangsters, druggies, etc! Once they re[pent they tend to be on fire for the Lord!

I know of a pastor who eats to much sugar. Should we kick him/her out because of that sin? Which sins disqualify one for being a pastor?

Wow, Red, you can't be serious!

So, you are saying that we should just look past it even though the church protocol says we should not? I guess this is why sister White says there will be a great "sifting" in the church, where do we draw the line!

I agree with the saying that Christ came to saves from our sins and not in our sins.

Once again I say, I am included here, I have also got "skeletons" in my cupboard as most of us do, what I need to do is die to self daily and hope that Christ provides a way of escape to my temptations!

[John317]

Tag on....

So if a pastor is gay, he is a practising Hsexual, seems to be the assumption by some and if not practising, then there are not Hsexual???

I am gay but by God's grace I am not a practicing gay person. I stopped practicing about 5 years ago after practicing most of the time from 1969 on. (During much of that time I was also married, attempting to stop "being gay" but never able to do it.)

A practicing gay person is one who is currently having romantic and/or sexual relations with members of his own sex, or who is "looking."

There is more to being a gay person, or homosexual, than having sex with people. It's the same with a heterosexual: they are heterosexual even if they are not involved sexually with someone. Being gay has to with one's self-identity and how one feels about one's body and how one's thinks and feels about many aspects of life.

[Stan]

John317

I so appreciate the HOPE you have given so many folks.

[John317]

For me that's what it's all about. Before I came to this forum I never told anyone. Parade Orange is the one who told me I should talk about it and let people see what God can do to help gay people. Before that I was afraid of being rejected or disliked for being gay but now I don't worry about that part of it.

So praise God for Parade Orange. Where is that guy these days, anyway?!! Hope he doesn't stay gone for long. :-)

[Stan]

I am very accepting of gays, and most folks. I can tell you that folks I have run into in my travel have been given hope that they too can have a life they would want.

I would not trade my struggles for what they have to go through.

Even so, come Lord Jesus Come..

[Gail]

I'm always happy to see Parade Orange come visit!

[phkrause]

I for one John am glad to have you on this forum. Have really enjoyed your posts about yourself. You have given a great deal of perspective on the Homosexual lifestyle. Like Stan I to have a number of homosexual friends that I've encounter through the years. I must definitely don't condone there lifestyle but do really love them as friends and fellow christians. Like I've mentioned on a few occasions. We had this friend that was a homosexual, we didn't know it at the time, learned about it later. But he was such a good friend and never flaunted this in anyones face. We had him dedicate our daughter to the Lord. When he finally came out he gave up his position in the church and started a AA kind of help ministry for homosexual's, to help others. He was on the Mike Douglas Show many years ago (I believe it was Mike Douglas, could've been Oprah when she first started but not sure) talking about his situation and how he started this help ministry and other things which I don't recall anymore. Don't know whatever happen to him.

pk

[Fausto]

I am gay but by God's grace I am not a practicing gay person. I stopped practicing about 5 years ago after practicing most of the time from 1969 on. (During much of that time I was also married, attempting to stop "being gay" but never able to do it.)

A practicing gay person is one who is currently having romantic and/or sexual relations with members of his own sex, or who is "looking."

There is more to being a gay person, or homosexual, than having sex with people. It's the same with a heterosexual: they are heterosexual even if they are not involved sexually with someone. Being gay has to with one's self-identity and how one feels about one's body and how one's thinks and feels about many aspects of life.

It takes serious guts to come out and tell people like that, but as Stan puts it, it also gives those who are, were or are simply trying to stop, a whole lot of hope about what Christ can do!

I keep saying and will say it again, I have my own problems and therefore recognize this as something that makes me look inside too!

As pk puts it, I don;t condone their practice, but have had quite a few gay friends before, they are sensitive, caring, good and intelligent people, simply put they have a problem, however that doe not make me or anyone any better!

Thanks John

[Tom Wetmore]

...There is more to being a gay person, or homosexual, than having sex with people. It's the same with a heterosexual: they are heterosexual even if they are not involved sexually with someone. Being gay has to with one's self-identity and how one feels about one's body and how one's thinks and feels about many aspects of life.

From this and the rest your testimony it seems that your perspective on the "causes" of homosexuality would tend toward the genetic and less toward the choice side of being gay. Would that be correct? I'm not trying to bait you into a trap of "it's only natural, so don't fight it". I am just clarifying what I understand about you.

[John317]

From this and the rest your testimony it seems that your perspective on the "causes" of homosexuality would tend toward the genetic and less toward the choice side of being gay. Would that be correct? I'm not trying to bait you into a trap of "it's only natural, so don't fight it". I am just clarifying what I understand about you.

Based on my own personal experience and my reading the literature on the subject, I believe that some gays are definitely "born gay," but I don't believe the majority are. There are between 4 and 8 types of gays and many different reasons for people to be gay. There are feminine gays but there are also many very masculine gays who you would never guess are homosexual. (Many of these are actually bisexual.) They come in all shapes and sizes and psychological types. Some identify completely with females, whereas many others identify with males.

It's an incredibly complex issue and a number of factors are involved in causing people to be attracted to members of their own sex. In most people's experiences, it depends on a combination of influences, both nature and nurture. It's rare when only one of those influences are determinative.

Gays seldom become as they are because of deliberate, conscious choices to be gay. The same with heterosexuals.

The factors may be due to various influences such as in the family, school, or with friends. Involved in this are also often hereditary factors or due to the way the brain of the baby developed in the uterus.

But the point I would stress is that no matter what explanations there are for one being gay or practicing homosexuality, the grace of God is always able to empower us to resist and overcome those sins, and indeed all sins that the Holy Spirit convicts us of. The Holy Spirit doesn't convict us of sins and then leave us helpless against them.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

There is more to being a gay person, or homosexual, than having sex with people. It's the same with a heterosexual: they are heterosexual even if they are not involved sexually with someone. Being gay has to with one's self-identity and how one feels about one's body and how one's thinks and feels about many aspects of life.

An excellent statement.

There is a difference of opinion as to what it is that defines a person as homosexual. Is one homosexual due to an orientation or due to practice?

I happen to believe that homosexuality is defined by orientation rather than practice. At at time where in my position as a hospital chaplain I was working with people infected with HIV I related to people who clearly claimed to be homosexual and yet were celebate. They did not beleive that they lost their homosexuality because they were celebate. Their orientation was to people of their own gender.

It should be noted that this defination of homosexuality opens the door to people engaged in sexual activity with a person of the same gender to NOT be homosexual. How could this be? An example comes to mind: Sexual activity takes places within prison systems and normally within the same gender. UKpon release many of these people no longer engage in sexual activity with people of the same gender. By the defination that I have suggested, these pepole are not homosexual because they do not have the orientation.

GM

[John317]

There is a difference of opinion as to what it is that defines a person as homosexual. Is one homosexual due to an orientation or due to practice?

I happen to believe that homosexuality is defined by orientation rather than practice.

I definitely agree. I have known some who were gay by orientation although they said they had never practiced. On other hand, I have not practiced in almost 5 years (thank you, Jesus!), and in fact I'm married, but I still consider myself gay because that is how I think and feel about me and how I relate to men and women. I need to explain this because otherwise people will think I am talking about things that are sinful. I'm not referring to evil or sinful thoughts but rather to the way I view other people. For me, I relate to women like another woman does-- as a friend. I don't see them as subjects of sexual or romantic attentions. On the other hand, I generally relate to men quite differently, no longer thinking of them as potential sex partners but as someone who grabs my interest, my attention, or my focus in a way that a woman doesn't. I find myself naturally wanting to nurture or "help" them or give them my attention or please them. It is almost like a chemical reaction, though without the desire for romance or sex that I used to have.

This occurs whether there is any kind of gay practice or even a desire for such practice. So it has to do with the way the brain is wired.

I've been able to compare these differences because I was on female hormones for about year and I noticed a definite change in my feelings and in how I thought during that time as contrasted with the way I felt before the hormones and also after I'd been off them for a few months.

Quote:

At at time where in my position as a hospital chaplain I was working with people infected with HIV I related to people who clearly claimed to be homosexual and yet were celebate. They did not beleive that they lost their homosexuality because they were celebate. Their orientation was to people of their own gender.

Yes, exactly. That's very clearly so.

Quote:

It should be noted that this defination of homosexuality opens the door to people engaged in sexual activity with a person of the same gender to NOT be homosexual. How could this be? An example comes to mind: Sexual activity takes places within prison systems and normally within the same gender. UKpon release many of these people no longer engage in sexual activity with people of the same gender. By the defination that I have suggested, these pepole are not homosexual because they do not have the orientation.

No question about this. Those heterosexuals wouldn't even consider doing those things if they were out in "the world." Some of those guys in the prisons who do that really do it in order to have someone washing their clothes and doing other things for them. Having a "b----" that way increases their esteem among the other men, too. They're often motivated by the desire to dominate and control someone else's life, and they can usually find someone happy to play that role. However, it should be added that some guys who begin that way in prison do take up doing things once they get out that they never otherwise would have thought they'd do. I don't think it means they're gay, but once they get out, they just find it easier to make contact with gays for easy sex. So the prison experience can lead men that way into sinful practices after they're released. Satan knows how to get into people's hearts and minds, and he takes advantage of those hard times to attack them and put chains tight around them that they will find almost impossible to throw off. Those kinds of things can dog you all through the rest of your life and never let you go without a helping hand from God.

[Dr. Shane]

I know some gay people that feel they are defined by their behavior and as long as they are not active in the lifestyle, they don't feel they are gay. I don't think it is that big of an issue to try an argue with them about it. It is not like an alcoholic, thinking he is cured, thinks he can again drink safely. Whether a person considers themselves gay or not is just a label.