Can we pursue capitalism____

[LifeHiscost]

____and still consider ourselves to be disciples of Christ?

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.Matthew 19:23 NKJV

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stand by and be devoted to the one and despise and be against the other. You cannot serve God and mammon ( deceitful riches, money, possessions, or whatever is trusted in).

"Matthew 6:24 AMP

Blessings!

[GreatLakesGramma]

Capitalism is no more incompatible with Christianity than socialism. The issue, in either case, is with the motivation and focus.

Capitalism is not the same as greed and dishonesty. It simply means private ownership of businesses. So long as we remember that everything we have is really God's, and determine to use it all (and not just material possessions) for the glory of God and the betterment of the world around us, there is no problem.

It is only a problem when one succumbs to greed of gain. And that is just as much a problem in socialism as it is in capitalism.

[phkrause]

Excellent post GLG. I remember when going to HS the teacher mentioning about the same thing. That Capitalism is no different than Socialism and Communisium (sp) when greed enters the picture.

pk

[LifeHiscost]

Excellent post GLG. I remember when going to HS the teacher mentioning about the same thing. That Capitalism is no different than Socialism and Communisium (sp) when greed enters the picture.

pk

Except, it seems, when capitalism flourishes, everyone becomes richer by exploiting each other, whereas when communism or socialism flourish, the elite become enormously powerful while the vast majority become enslaved to a greater or lesser degree, in order to provide for the few ruling.

So the question still remains, only now extends to two other forms of government on earth.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same."

And I would suggest the persons of Nicodemus, Solomon, Jacob, and David, etc., all believed in a Theocracy that depended upon it's success to yield one's personal preferences to a Person Who was above greed.

" Unless the LORD builds the house,They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman stays awake in vain." Psalm 127:2 NKJV

Blessings!

[phkrause]

You make a good point LHC

pk

[GreatLakesGramma]

Except, it seems, when capitalism flourishes, everyone becomes richer by exploiting each other, whereas when communism or socialism flourish, the elite become enormously powerful while the vast majority become enslaved to a greater or lesser degree, in order to provide for the few ruling.

I agree. Which is one reason why I'd take capitalism over the others any day. The main reason I consider socialism incompatible with Christian principles is that God calls us each to personal responsibility and stewardship, and gives us freedom to choose to obey or not. Socialism takes away our freedom of choice, and confiscates our stewardship and puts it in the hands of those who, for the most part, have no fear of God in their hearts, and no regard for His laws and requirements, who then use their position to their own advantage.

[LifeHiscost]

I agree. Which is one reason why I'd take capitalism over the others any day. The main reason I consider socialism incompatible with Christian principles is that God calls us each to personal responsibility and stewardship, and gives us freedom to choose to obey or not. Socialism takes away our freedom of choice, and confiscates our stewardship and puts it in the hands of those who, for the most part, have no fear of God in their hearts, and no regard for His laws and requirements, who then use their position to their own advantage.

Agreed, capitalism is best for a person living under this world's rules. However it is my opinion that those who choose to live under a theocracy in which Jesus has been chosen to rule over their financial affairs can be living under any worldly government and find peace, contentment, and material assurance, even while giving obedience to this world's organizations.

That, of course, does not address all individual realities in the physical world before deliverance, when we are dependent upon the enemies of Christ for subsistence of the body, and even the more as we see the end approaching.

"...is better to obey God than man..."

Blessings!

[GreatLakesGramma]

God's own rules for a theocracy included individual stewardship and responsibility. Every man was to have his own land, and be responsible for the use of the resources God gave to him.

[phkrause]

And one of the great things about this was that if you messed up and didn't take care of your land and had to give it away you got it back. Also when to lent money out you didn't charge an interest to your fellow Israelite's. God set this up so you didn't have those that were so rich and those that were so poor. But obviously it didn't work because they never could resist greed. And the same with the sabbatical year. They only did that for awhile than abaddon that. So any time they went into captivity they spent the exact time of all the sabbaths that they did not keep.

pk

[Dr. Shane]

Capitalism works best in a sinful society. In the New Earth, where there will be no sin, I doubt we will have capitalism. Capitalism provides an incentive for the worker to work and be useful. The more useful a worker becomes, the more they earn. Entertainers are useful by making people happy. The more they make happy, the more they earn. Farmers are useful by producing food. The more they produce, the more they earn. Medical workers are useful by providing medical services. The more services they provide, the more they earn. The secret to success in a capitalist society is making a product affordable to the masses. Henry Ford did not become rich by making a few expensive cars for the elite. He became rich by making cars affordable for the common person. Bill Gates did this with Microsoft. Sears, K-Mart and Wal-Mart did the same thing with retail. The key to success is making products and services the masses ca afford.

Can one be a Christian and be capitalist? Of course. If neither Henry Ford nor Bill Gates makes it to heaven it won't be because they were capitalists.

[there buster]

Quote:

when capitalism flourishes, everyone becomes richer by exploiting each other

A canard, a cliche, a statement demonstrating the degree to which Marxism has infected modern thought, even among Christians.

When I go to the grocery store, and exchange my money for their food, no one is being exploited.

When I agree to work for a certain wage, I am not exploited simply because someone else makes more-- even for the same work (see Matt 20).

Capitalism is simply liberty. No exchange takes place unless both parties believe they are benefiting.

Are they sometimes mistaken? Sure, but that doesn't involve exploitation. Do people sometimes lie or defraud? Sure, but those aren't natural features of capitalism. They are features of fallen human nature, independent of the economic system.

As far as heaven is concerned, none of our economics will operate there for the simple reason that economics deals with scarcity. Scarcity of goods, and scarcity of information. In heaven, there will be no scarcity.

However, any attempt to use 'heavenly' economics here is bound to fail, and historically has resulted in tyranny. Scarcity is the reality in this world. And God has chosen liberty as the best way to deal with it. It is not perfect, because people are not perfect. But it is far superior to any other system.

America has pioneered a system in which there is both more prosperity and more freedom than the world has known previously. Critics do not contrast America with a practical alternative, but with a non-existent heaven on earth.

[LifeHiscost]

But obviously it didn't work because they never could resist greed. And the same with the sabbatical year. They only did that for awhile than abaddon that. So any time they went into captivity they spent the exact time of all the sabbaths that they did not keep.

pk

As was said before, since the time of Cain and Able, not to mention the parents, the more things change the more they remain the same.

Even so , come, Lord Jesus!

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

In the New Earth, where there will be no sin, I doubt we will have capitalism.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

when capitalism flourishes, everyone becomes richer by exploiting each other

When I go to the grocery store, and exchange my money for their food, no one is being exploited.

It is a misnomer to consider every person who works or sells as exploiting their neighbor. And you've made a very good choice to prove your point. Especially when it is understood that the food industry makes, or use to make, between 1-3% profit net. However if the store manager received a major wholesale cost break on his continuing purchase of steaks, say 50%, but continued selling them to you at the same price as before because the price break for him was not common knowledge, would you consider that just good business practices for a Christian?

Why do you think (most) businesses like to keep their monetary business practices secret?

Regards!

[phkrause]

Very good point LHC. Or like the person who gets things for free from someone and than sells it, or someone buys a vehicle for $200, because the other didn't know the value, and sells it for $2000 or best offer and makes a 800% profit, this is greed not capitalism at its finest. And how about those that just hike up the price because they heard maybe there would be a shortish. Or those that hkie up the price than lower the price come sale time back to the original price and say it is a sale? I have no problem with capitalism. You should be able to make a profit. How many times have we heard that the price is going up on something because there was a problem with the weather, not enough rain not enough sun and so on. Well I walk past this apple orchard every day, and here it is almost december and the trees are full of apples. Just rotting away because they didn't pick them. I'm waiting to see in the paper there excuse for why prices are going to go up because of this or that. I'm going to take a picture so I have prove and submitted to the paper if I see that they are going to raise prices for any reason.

pk

pk

[Dr. Shane]

Capitalism needs government regulation to serve both business and the consumers. Regulation creates a level playing field for business and protects consumers against numerous evils.

[phkrause]

Not directed at you personally Shane. But its interesting how we decide what things government should or should not be involved in. Government is just as greedy as any one else and sometimes even more. They allow there friends to get certain bids to do certain things without anyone knowing and when it comes out its much to late to stop it because most of the time its over. To put friends into high places when everyone knows there not qualified to do that job. And than all there buddies get nice little kickbacks from this or that. We only like government when they can help us but God forbid if government gets to big and envolved with something that doesn't help me out. But I do hear you Shane, and I have no answers either.

pk

[Dr. Shane]

Government is a necessary evil. Both business and consumers need some regulation. Too much regulation can harm both business and consumers too. That right balance is something that tends to move back and forth as circumstances change. Thus we need a dynamic government capable of adjusting and an informed electorate armed with a free press able to change their government leaders.

[bonnie]

Government is a necessary evil. Both business and consumers need some regulation. Too much regulation can harm both business and consumers too. That right balance is something that tends to move back and forth as circumstances change. Thus we need a dynamic government capable of adjusting and an informed electorate armed with a free press able to change their government leaders.

Who determines the percentage of profit a private business can make? Who here can determine when a profit is excessive and becomes unchristian?

The marketplace is the best place to determine that.

If I charge enough to have what many might seem as obscene profit,it is in the control of the consumer.

In a free marketplace the consumer can shop around and find a business with a profit margin they approve of.

Very few items need to be purchased at the top of the dollar range

[Guest]

Once again Bonnie, you have spoken wisely.

[there buster]

Quote:

Capitalism needs government regulation to serve both business and the consumers. Regulation creates a level playing field for business and protects consumers against numerous evils.

Capitalism does not need government regulation. Government's only role is to punish fraud. Fraud is not a feature of capitalism, it is a feature of human nature.

From the beginning, government regulation created more trouble than it helped individuals.

For example, the ICC "Interstate Commerce Commission" was created to regulate railroads. They found that rates on short spur lines were higher than on longer trunk lines. That was "unequal." They solved the problem by raising the rates on the trunk lines. Instead of benefiting consumers, it enshrined higher rates in legal regulation.

There were good, supply-and-demand reasons for higher rates on the spur lines. There were no good reasons to increase the rates on trunk rates, except a false 'perception' of fairness.

The Free Market is an information system. Whenever government distorts that information system through regulation, everyone ends up making decisions based on distorted information. It rarely benefits anyone, except the regulators, who get paid for distorting the market, accumulate unaccountable power, and cultivate an appetite for bribes and black markets.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Why do you think (most) businesses like to keep their monetary business practices secret?

Regards!

Because it was not the business of the consumer. Their business is to decide if they need or want it and the price they are willing or can afford to pay.

If the offered price is to high it is the business of the consumer to say No,Not "let me look at your business profit and loss sheet".

What my husband made on a painting contract was not the business of the homeowner. The home owner could accept,reject, go elsewhere or do without until they could afford the market price.

It is not the business of government to control that

[Dr. Shane]

Who determines the percentage of profit a private business can make?

This whole line of questioning in response to my post is misdirected. I made no reference to government limiting profits. Competition will limit profits. However, government regulation is often required in order to assure fair competition.

[Dr. Shane]

Capitalism does not need government regulation.

This is the argument set forth by libertarianism. Conservatives, liberals and moderates disagree. That is why we have a government that regulates and is continually re-elected to office. We have a lot of Democrats and Republicans holding political office that believe in government regulation and not too many Libertarians in those seats of public trust.

There are several examples of where government regulation has done harm. It is a dynamic that is constantly changing. That is why we need a dynamic government able to adjust laws and regulations. However the vast amount of government regulations works out best for both business and consumers.

[Neil D]

Because it was not the business of the consumer. Their business is to decide if they need or want it and the price they are willing or can afford to pay.

If the offered price is to high it is the business of the consumer to say No,Not "let me look at your business profit and loss sheet".

What my husband made on a painting contract was not the business of the homeowner. The home owner could accept,reject, go elsewhere or do without until they could afford the market price.

It is not the business of government to control that

To no one in particular-

If a monopoly exists, does that mean that Government is not allowed to get involved?

There have been situations where monopoly pricing exist among industry sectors...Does government have a right to regulate then?

What about those industries that have patents? If there is no other way to manufacture a product, except thru ONE method, a monopoly would exist on the perceived product, especially one that was needed, for example like certain pharmaceuticals. Is industry allowed to set a price for those type of products, especially when life is concerned?

And what about the Christian perspective....Is it right for a Christian to set his price above the costs 150%..? or just 30%? Granted, it IS what the market will bear, but is the market what sets the price for the Christian or does fairness? Is a Christian in the market to be rich or to glorify God? Does a Christian get rich because he passes a product at a fair price and everyone flocks to him due to his prices or does he get rich because God "blesses" him with a good location? What is the standard for a Christian businessman?