Can we pursue capitalism____

[Dr. Shane]

It is quite simple.

My mother was into substance abuse. Everyone here knows that. My father was an alcoholic. That is also common knowledge. They divorced when I was young. The problem with the welfare system is that they do not address substance abuse. So welfare actually ends up enabling many addicts and alcoholics to continue their destructive lifestyles. That was the case with my mother.

When addicts and alcoholics get desperate for money they turn to crime. Normally that means thieving and/or prostitution. If we apply the artificial five-year limit to welfare, we satisfy some cold-hearted conservatives but do nothing to address the problem of substance abuse. What such an artificial limit does is causes these addicts and alcoholics to become thieves or prostitutes. That is not the best solution for society.

Why would anyone be on welfare for five or ten years? I have stated the answer throughout this thread. Substance abuse. My mother didn't get her life together until she went through drug rehabilitation and got into AA. It was not an artificial five-year limit to welfare that got my mother to work. Nor was it some welfare-to-work program. It was by addressing the issue of substance abuse that the problem ended up solving itself.

Welfare is a good program that needs some fine-tuning. The biggest change that needs to be made is regarding the issue of substance abuse. If we, as taxpayers, are going to give a family a helping hand, it needs to be exactly that. Funding an addiction or alcoholism is not helping anyone. I have been involved with a 12 Step recovery program now for over 24 years. I have seen welfare help scores of people with ruined lives become productive members of society. It works and Americans should be proud of living in such a great nation that takes care of the least of those among us. God bless America. Our welfare programs is one of most admirable aspects of American life.

[bonnie]

Quote:

My mother was into substance abuse. Everyone here knows that. My father was an alcoholic. That is also common knowledge. They divorced when I was young. The problem with the welfare system is that they do not address substance abuse. So welfare actually ends up enabling many addicts and alcoholics to continue their destructive lifestyles. That was the case with my mother.

No I did not know your mother was into substance abuse.You assume everyone knew. I knew your father was not in the home but not why.

Quote:

When addicts and alcoholics get desperate for money they turn to crime. Normally that means thieving and/or prostitution. If we apply the artificial five-year limit to welfare, we satisfy some cold-hearted conservatives but do nothing to address the problem of substance abuse. What such an artificial limit does is causes these addicts and alcoholics to become thieves or prostitutes. That is not the best solution for society.

You assume that most on welfare are there because of substance abuse and the girl was drunk or on drugs when she got pregnant. I don't.

Very little of what I have seen indicates that. Out of the five in our neighborhood only one had the dysfunctional home.The others had intact families and they were not substance abusers. When I was still working the crew I was on had 34 employee's. Out of that 19, had unwed pregnant daughters or mothers. Two were involved with drugs. 3 had babies because they wanted them,one of them had her second child. She didn't want to marry but didn't want such a age gap between her children. She is working but relies heavily on

WIC and the subsidized day care. The other two rely on WIC as well for their deliberate decision to have a baby.

Very few of these mothers would fall into the catagory you insist is common place.

The foster children we cared for did not come in large numbers because of substance abuse. I don't consider those that have to much from time to time or smoke heavy substance abuser's in the sense of causing their failure to care for their kids. That would fit almost all that consumed alcohol or smokes.

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Why would anyone be on welfare for five or ten years? I have stated the answer throughout this thread. Substance abuse. My mother didn't get her life together until she went through drug rehabilitation and got into AA. It was not an artificial five-year limit to welfare that got my mother to work. Nor was it some welfare-to-work program. It was by addressing the issue of substance abuse that the problem ended up solving itself.

You state this as if it becomes fact because you say so. Many have far different experiences with the system and those that use it.

Even those I have worked with,within the welfare system,that do this day after day for years does not back up what you claim.With that and watching what goes on in our area I think I take the word of those.

There is no longer a stigma against unmarried mother's.

[Dr. Shane]

It sounds like your experience has kept you pretty sheltered. Praise God from Whom all blessings flow that our politicians have access to a lot more facts. Even Bill O'Reilly has made reference to the relationship between substance abuse, teenage pregnancy and welfare dependency. In fact, studies have shown that intoxication is more likely to result in teenage pregnancy among middle and lower class girls than upper class girls.

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You assume that most on welfare are there because of substance abuse

I make no such assumption. Most that go on welfare come off from it within a matter of months. Only a small percentage stay on welfare for a period of years. Those that are on it for a period of years tend to either be collecting it while they are pursuing higher education or be dealing with substance abuse.

There are, however, many that are on it for a number of months, come off it for a few years, only to go back on it again. That is actually quite common and tied mostly to their employment. They lose a good job and end up on welfare. Then they get another good job and come off welfare. After a few years they lose that job and end up back on welfare.

We also need to pass a law banning credit card companies from issuing a credit card to anyone receiving welfare. Credit cards may not be as bad as substance abuse but they prey on the poor just like drug dealers do.

[bonnie]

Maybe putting the responsibility on those it belongs.

Welfare recipients may not apply for credit cards under penalty of losing their benefits.

Quote:

Even Bill O'Reilly has made reference to the relationship between substance abuse, teenage pregnancy and welfare dependency. In fact, studies have shown that intoxication is more likely to result in teenage pregnancy among middle and lower class girls than upper class girls.

I don't doubt there are those where drugs or alcohol play a part. I do not believe it is the majority. Even if Bill O'Reilly has spoken.

Bill O'Reilly really has nothing to do with this other than it is his opinion you are quoting.

[Dr. Shane]

Here is some data from 1999.

Feminist Studies 101

Why every woman in America should beware of welfare cuts.

Welfare is the ultimate security policy for every woman in America. Like accident or life insurance, you hope you’ll never need it. But for yourself and your family, sisters, daughters and friends, you need to know it's there. Without it, we have no real escape from brutal relationships or any protection in a job market hostile to women with children. Why is Congress trying to take it away?

Ten Facts most American don’t know about welfare.

1. Only 6% of welfare mothers are teenagers. Less than 3% of poor families are headed by women younger than 19.

2. The typical welfare family includes a mother and two children, about the same as the average American family.

3. Welfare mothers on average receive $367 a month, even with food stamps worth $295, this is still 31% below the poverty line for a family of three. Benefits have about about a third of their value since 1979.

4. Welfare to single mothers makes up just 1% of the federal budget--3% if food stamps are included,

5. Thirty-eight percent of AFDC parents are white, 37% are African-American, and 18% are Latino.

6. Over 70% of women applying for welfare receive benefits for less than two years; only 8% remain over eight years.

7. More than 60% of AFDC families have a child younger than six. Forty percent have a child younger than two.

8. Full-time, year-round work at minimum wage puts a woman and two children $3,000 below the poverty line-with no health care coverage.

9. Unemployment hat steadily increased since World War II, while unemployment benefits have decreased.

10. Carefully conducted research has found that AFDC benefits do not influence a never-married mother's decision to have a child; nor do they influence mothers already on welfare to have additional children.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Why every woman in America should beware of welfare cuts.

Feminist Studies usually are pretty self serving. Their agenda is always questionable

Quote:

Welfare is the ultimate security policy for every woman in America. Like accident or life insurance, you hope you’ll never need it. But for yourself and your family, sisters, daughters and friends, you need to know it's there. Without it, we have no real escape from brutal relationships or any protection in a job market hostile to women with children. Why is Congress trying to take it away?

What a strange comment.These are the women that claim you can have it all.

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Ten Facts most American don’t know about welfare.

1. Only 6% of welfare mothers are teenagers. Less than 3% of poor families are headed by women younger than 19.

There are over a million teenage girls pregnant every year.

A fourth of them typically have another child within two years

Quote:

The typical welfare family includes a mother and two children, about the same as the average American family.

3. Welfare mothers on average receive $367 a month, even with food stamps worth $295, this is still 31% below the poverty line for a family of three. Benefits have about about a third of their value since 1979.

This is somewhat misleading. The medical benefits,the housing subsidy etc.

The woman I did daycare for had four children with a four bedroom townhome ,new when she moved in. Because of the number of children she paid 167.50 for a home that would have caused the private payer in excess of a 1,000.00 a month here in MN.She also received the energy tax credit and her youngest was in Head Start. That far exceeds the 367.00 a month + food stamps.

If I am not mistaking their benefit package must equal at least above the poverty line. Most intact families that have jobs that pay them 28,000.00 per year receive no help and most have their priorities straight and manage without their children going hungry

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Welfare to single mothers makes up just 1% of the federal budget--3% if food stamps are included

I am sure stats can be made to say about anything depending on what the agenda is.The feminist have more of an agenda than about any group I know.

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Thirty-eight percent of AFDC parents are white, 37% are African-American, and 18% are Latino.

Could not care less what the color of their skin is

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6. Over 70% of women applying for welfare receive benefits for less than two years; only 8% remain over eight years.

This is not supported by numerous other stats

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8. Full-time, year-round work at minimum wage puts a woman and two children $3,000 below the poverty line-with no health care coverage.

If welfare places them 31% below the poverty level and working year round places them 3,000.00 below,which is not accurate let them work and attend job training or classes.

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9. Unemployment hat steadily increased since World War II, while unemployment benefits have decreased.

Somehow I just don't believe unemployment has steadily declined since WW2.

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10. Carefully conducted research has found that AFDC benefits do not influence a never-married mother's decision to have a child; nor do they influence mothers already on welfare to have additional children.

Never said it did. It simply removes one of what should be a concern to the mother before she becomes pregnant.

Those that think it would be cool to have another baby also have one barrier removed from their concerns.

For the family I did day care for her benefits far exceed the $ amount the feminist gave.

Over 832.00 a month for housing,insurance they way she used medical benefits would at the least been 600.00 a month,over 35.00 a month in food stamps,the energy credit for the poor,plus the cash allotment,not to bad for not lifting a finger

[Guest]

Here is some data from 1999.

Feminist Studies 101

Why every woman in America should beware of welfare cuts.

Welfare is the ultimate security policy for every woman in America. Like accident or life insurance, you hope you’ll never need it. But for yourself and your family, sisters, daughters and friends, you need to know it's there. Without it, we have no real escape from brutal relationships or any protection in a job market hostile to women with children. Why is Congress trying to take it away?

Ten Facts most American don’t know about welfare.

1. Only 6% of welfare mothers are teenagers. Less than 3% of poor families are headed by women younger than 19.

2. The typical welfare family includes a mother and two children, about the same as the average American family.

3. Welfare mothers on average receive $367 a month, even with food stamps worth $295, this is still 31% below the poverty line for a family of three. Benefits have about about a third of their value since 1979.

4. Welfare to single mothers makes up just 1% of the federal budget--3% if food stamps are included,

5. Thirty-eight percent of AFDC parents are white, 37% are African-American, and 18% are Latino.

6. Over 70% of women applying for welfare receive benefits for less than two years; only 8% remain over eight years.

7. More than 60% of AFDC families have a child younger than six. Forty percent have a child younger than two.

8. Full-time, year-round work at minimum wage puts a woman and two children $3,000 below the poverty line-with no health care coverage.

9. Unemployment hat steadily increased since World War II, while unemployment benefits have decreased.

10. Carefully conducted research has found that AFDC benefits do not influence a never-married mother's decision to have a child; nor do they influence mothers already on welfare to have additional children.

Where do you get these numbers at Shane?

It looks to me like someone is down playing the stats, trying to make them look insignificant. It doesn't seem to match up with what I've seen in real life.

[Dr. Shane]

Those stats come from a Standford University class. Yes, they play with numbers. Everyone plays with numbers. The Heritage Foundation and Cato Institute play with numbers too.

Quote:

If welfare places them 31% below the poverty level and working year round places them 3,000.00 below,which is not accurate let them work and attend job training or classes.

First, they need child care while working and child care while attending job training or classes. If we don't want to give them assistance, how are they going to deal with the childcare issue?

Quote:

Over 70% of women applying for welfare receive benefits for less than two years; only 8% remain over eight years.

This is not supported by numerous other stats

Obviously this is something that changes over time. These numbers are ten years old but they seem to be in line with what I was seeing back in the early '90s. Most people on welfare don't like being on it and would love to get off it. I would have to see some sources of statistics to see that has changed much.

[bonnie]

The feminist agenda rarely is a accurate or healthy one.

The numbers there are numbers that are so patently false in this

Quote:

3. Welfare mothers on average receive $367 a month, even with food stamps worth $295, this is still 31% below the poverty line for a family of three. Benefits have about about a third of their value since 1979.

/

This one is absurd .With subsidized housing and medical alone exceeds this.

The food stamps are figured pretty close to what it should take to feed a family for a month. A little more careful planning and a whole lot less junk food helps a lot.You know that same routine those of us providing the food stamps have to follow many times in our lives.

Medical for a family of four with full benefits has to exceed 600.00 a month. Free prescriptions help a lot as well. I wouldn't mind I spend over 200.00 with prescription D,Guess what, no one is offering to pick that up for us.

Have to wonder which planet this feminist resides on.Not sure where the unemployment has been increasing since WW2,not counting the present downturn in the economy.

I don't think the promise of welfare benefits make a girl say Oh goody,now I can have a baby. But after the fact it is Good,welfare is available.

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Where do you get these numbers at Shane?

It looks to me like someone is down playing the stats, trying to make them look insignificant. It doesn't seem to match up with what I've seen in real life.

This idea we have to run ahead removing all obstacles from the life of a mother is not very healthy in the long run.No more than it would be for your children.

They should have a commitment when they apply for welfare. Social services explaining what they are going to receive based on their agreement to do certain things. If they cannot agree,then social services should feed and shelter their child till they feel they can,absent benefits.

Shane like to demonize credit card companies,making the applicant sound like they are mentally incompetent.

Explain to the applicant no credit cards.Of course that can't be done so let's blame everyone but the applicant.

Part of their contractual agreement should be Economy 101,parenting classes,nutrition classes. 3 months following the birth of their child they enroll in some type of education or job training.

3 times and your out for substance abuse. The parental rights terminated permanently.As it stands here now it is extremely difficult to protect children by removal.

We took a little 18 month old girl. By that time she had been beaten several times,left alone in her crib and was seriously malnourished. We had her till she was 8. Up until the last year the mother never visited or called. She was shacking up with a man off the reservation.Darlene was 1/8 indian.

Guess who reclaimed her little girl,aided by social services. The nationality of the man the mother was living with took priority over the stable home she had for 6 years.It represented a stable ethnic enviornment so called

They had another child. He died when he was 6 weeks old. The father left alone with him claimed this six week old baby had rolled off the bed and fractured his skull.No charges were filed and the little girl had to remain.

Even tho many seem to feel their are no natural consequences to actions,only forgiveness,life doesn't work that way.

Those that grasp that are condemned to hell by other ordinary mortals.

Aren't you glad that those that insist in taking over God's role really has no input or influence?

But nothing will change and only get worse

[bonnie]

Quote:

First, they need child care while working and child care while attending job training or classes. If we don't want to give them assistance, how are they going to deal with the childcare issue?

They currently have free day care for a year. After that there are reduced fees where needed. Schools offer on site day care for the high school student.

Daycare is also provided for the welfare college student.

The family working and earning the 28,000.00(I think that is what it is) a year poverty level has to figure it out themselves and millions do every year

Quote:

Obviously this is something that changes over time. These numbers are ten years old but they seem to be in line with what I was seeing back in the early '90s. Most people on welfare don't like being on it and would love to get off it. I would have to see some sources of statistics to see that has changed much.

Those that work day to day,year after year with this don't agree at all. I will believe the social workers/caseworkers that handled the numerous foster children we cared for. Their welfare was not a recent thing.

The ones currently working in social services don't back up what you claim.

Those trying to run the subsidized housing here don't either.

Their experiences carry a bit more weight than feminist stat.

Hands on always gives better insight than a stat

[Dr. Shane]

The feminist agenda is what got private property rights for women, gave women the right to vote, got women the right to play high school sports and tries to get women equal pay for equal work. Women deserve these things.

As far as credit cards go. Yes, until the end of my life I will always try to protect the victim from the predator. Credit card companies love to prey on the poor, gullible, ignorant and elderly. Most welfare recipients are poor, ignorant and their desperation makes them rather gullible. Credit card companies love stealing food out of their children's mouths. Then the fat cats can get free trips and all kinds of perks. While the welfare child's utilities get shut off the fat cat relaxes beside a pool in the Bahamas. But hey, the fat cat deserves a vacation paid by the poor, ignorant, gullible and elderly because the fat cat knows how to read the credit card application. The poor, ignorant, gullible and elderly deserve to be victimized because they either don't take the time to read the credit card application or are not smart enough to understand it. Ahhhhh, the Bahama sun feels great in the winter and all thanks to the credit card companies finding victims for the fat cat.

[Dr. Shane]

There is one form of redistribution of wealth that many conservatives like. Not all conservatives. Compassionate conservatives like Dave Ramsey hate it. That is the redistribution of wealth done by the credit card companies. They target the ignorant, gullible, poor and elderly and redistribute their wealth to the fat cats. Of course, since credit card companies are part of the private sector, that kind of redistribution of wealth is OK. It must be OK if the government isn't doing it.

[bonnie]

Quote:

The feminist agenda is what got private property rights for women, gave women the right to vote, got women the right to play high school sports and tries to get women equal pay for equal work. Women deserve these things.

The feminist agenda has gone far beyond.

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As far as credit cards go. Yes, until the end of my life I will always try to protect the victim from the predator. Credit card companies love to prey on the poor, gullible, ignorant and elderly. Most welfare recipients are poor, ignorant and their desperation makes them rather gullible.

I am sure that a welfare recipient would love your classification of them.

You have no idea what they love to do. My guess would be that when you charge a 100.00 they want it back plus the interest charge.They are not there to please you.

Most elderly I know would have contempt for your opinion of their intelligence.The elderly are better off financially than ever before

Quote:

Credit card companies love stealing food out of their children's mouths.

Even if it is referring to the owners of the credit card company these type of comments you cannot prove or hope to back up in anyway. It does help to create the crisis and then play at fighting against it.

The welfare recipient does not pay their credit card bill with their food stamps which is what feeds their children.

Nor is the credit card company dragging them off to debtors prison. By the time they have missed two payments their credit privilege is cut off. While the interest will accumulate there is absolutely nothing that forces them to pay. Using their food stamps to pay their bill is utter foolishness

Welfare payments cannot be garnished nor can child support payments or social security checks. There credit is damaged after two months,if they don't want to pay they don't have to.

By the time they may get a job years done the road they probably won't be bothered it will be written off

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Then the fat cats can get free trips and all kinds of perks. While the welfare child's utilities get shut off the fat cat relaxes beside a pool in the Bahamas.

Another total red herring. Energy assistance is available in addition to everything else. Very few lose utilities.

If I chose not to work and lived off my SS and my husband's,I could have energy assistance and pay between 9-12.00 a month.

Same for the welfare recipient.

When the poor don't pay and many don't the "fat cats ' are not vacationing on them

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But hey, the fat cat deserves a vacation paid by the poor, ignorant, gullible and elderly because the fat cat knows how to read the credit card application.

Poor does not make you ignorant except in your world.

Yup,the fat cat deserves his vacation if he has worked hard,been prudent with his spending and responsibly paid on time.

No one can force them to pay. If they are mentally incompetent someone should make sure they are evaluated and then they are not responsible.

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The poor, ignorant, gullible and elderly deserve be victimized because they either don't take the time to read the credit card application or are not smart enough to understand it.

Being victimized because someone doesn't take the time to read should not foster to much sympathy. That is their problem.

Poor are not ignorant. There was a time when people in their superiority felt poor signified ignorance. Most of us know better now.

Do have to almost laugh tho at the way off base statement concerning the elderly.

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Ahhhhh, the Bahama sun feels great in the winter and all thanks to the credit card companies finding victims for the fat cat.

I certainly hope those that are responsible,pay their bills,do not force anyone to apply for a credit card,work hard,enjoy their vacations.

[bonnie]

Quote:

There is one form of redistribution of wealth that many conservatives like. Not all conservatives. Compassionate conservatives like Dave Ramsey hate it. That is the redistribution of wealth done by the credit card companies. They target the ignorant, gullible, poor and elderly and redistribute their wealth to the fat cats. Of course, since credit card companies are part of the private sector, that kind of redistribution of wealth is OK. It must be OK if the government isn't doing it.

I am not to concerned about Dave Ramsey..

I am sure that they search ages,who is on welfare and who is stupid.That way they can target these groups. When that is all accomplished and the bill doesn't get paid after a couple of months,tell me again whose money is paying for the fat cats.

Because a credit card company bills someone 500.00 it means nothing if that elderly,stupid,ignorant welfare person does not pay.h

Oh, that's right.They pay with food stamps and take the money out of the mouth of the children

[bonnie]

Shane,

Your attitude is becoming more understandable. You truly have such a low opinion of those that are in the lower income level.

A baby makes women stupid and incapable of working and getting an education with help. The poor are to ignorant to know what they are signing as if poor measures their IQ.

The elderly are also in this are a stupid ignorant group that need protection by those that see themselves as superior intellectuality and morally.

Have to admit it is finally clear

[Guest]

Is that true Shane? Do you really think those kinds of people are all stupid?

[bonnie]

Is that true Shane? Do you really think those kinds of people are all stupid?

[Dr. Shane]

Is that true Shane? Do you really think those kinds of people are all stupid?

The word ignorant is not interchangeable with the word stupid. Credit card companies target people that are not highly familiar with their predatory tactics. That doesn't mean those people are stupid. They are simply ignorant of the predatory tactics being used on them.

Credit card companies actively seek out people in desperate situations. Such people like college students, people with bad credit (needing to repair it) and the elderly on a fixed income. These people are not stupid. I have seen many of them have their eyes opened after attending a Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University seminar. Once they learn about the predatory behavior of the credit card companies, they don't fall for those traps any more.

[Dr. Shane]

Maybe they do pay their credit card bill with their food stamps taking the food from the children.

[bonnie]

Quote:

Credit card companies actively seek out people in desperate situations. Such people like college students, people with bad credit (needing to repair it) and the elderly on a fixed income.

Most do not extend a high credit amount to those needing to repair bad credit.That generally comes with depositing your own money into the credit card amount as security till you prove you will make payments.That is usually under 500.00.

If the claim is to repair your credit not to many people are going to let you keep charging unless you pay.

The elderly that live on fixed income do not have their brains turn to mush at that stage either.

They are a pretty savvy lot,having many more years experience.

Fixed income doesn't mean desperate circumstances as you seem to think.

The availability of senior housing,energy help,prescription D restrictions waived as to the doughnut hole if you are below the ability to pay,meals on wheels for a very small amount and those on a fixed income do quite nicely.Not a lot extra but they are content.

My brother's mother was paid cash for a number of years so her Social Security is very low. Not married or able to draw on ex-husband.

She receives 487.00. Senior apt is 79.00 per month.Utilities less than 25.00 Meals on wheels for her is about 2.00 per meal. Drugs paid.

That fixed income works. If she is foolish enough to apply for a credit card she is smart enough to know what she has every month and if she can do it. If she can't after a couple of months it is history anyway.They can't touch her.Somehow I don't think at her age she is highly concerned about credit rating.

We provided extra for our mother but would not have had to for her to be comfortable.

956.00 SS,rent 265.00,utilities 35.00?? the last year of her life we paid for medication but would not have had to as there were other resources available.

Now explain to me about these elderly that are so ignorant don't know how to read a contract and are basically starving or eating cat food.

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These people are not stupid. I have seen many of them have their eyes opened after attending a Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University seminar. Once they learn about the predatory behavior of the credit card companies, they don't fall for those traps any more.

Most elderly have known about predatory lending before you were born. Welfare recipients are not so ignorant that they cannot add and subtract and look at their resources and know when it won't cover.

They have not been ignorant till Dave Ramsey came on the scence.

[Dr. Shane]

Most do not extend a high credit amount to those needing to repair bad credit.That generally comes with depositing your own money into the credit card amount as security till you prove you will make payments.

[bonnie]

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Food stamps are not enough to cover the expense of feeding children. Food stamps are only supplemental. Those that have actually received government assistance know that all too well.

Whatever it was when your family was on them I have no idea. Today it is not supplemental. Non food items are not covered but that is a small amount with careful shopping.

I did have to make a call to a friend n on that.Someone that is actually on food stamps and has a family of five. Husband out of work and she is physically unable to at this time. They receive 426.50 on their electronic debit card. She is able to feed her family just fine.Not a lot of steak,but fresh produce. Has learned to stretch some meat further but knows that is better for her family anyway. Careful menu planning and shopping should not just be done by the tax payer but those on food stamps as well. Again your assessment does not meet with the people actually living on food stamps at the moment

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Not missed payments. Think "late payment". Not plural. Singular.

Good,then they won't go so far in debt. Maybe being charged a activation fee should be their first clue. Being poor often in my life did not prevent me from knowing when I was getting scammed.

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If the person wants their monthly payment to be automatically debited from their account (so they will never miss a payment or be late) the card company will charge them $3 - $5 to do that. They charge that fee to discourage it. The card company doesn't want to automatically debit the payments because they want to victimize the "customer".

So,are these people brain dead?I pay mostly online. I don't care what the creditor wants at all. I care I pay the bill on time.If their terms are not agreeable I do it my way. Those that want to charge me a fee for electronic debit get told no.

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With such a low credit limit, the "customer" {aka victim) quickly maxes out the card. The late payment comes with a late payment fee of $50 and that comes with an over-limit fee of $50. That puts the "customer" now $100 over-limit. It also sets into motion the harassing phone calls.

Victim my foot. Again,are we brain dead? Have they a clue what their limit is? and what will happen when it comes due,where will their money come from?

Well,good time to cancel the card,if you can pay,do so,if not don't and hang up on harrassing phone calls.

This is not just ignorant of predatory companies,this is stupid on behalf of those doing it over and over.

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These calls threaten law suits. They call the "customer's" place of employment, call their neighbors, parents and siblings.

The elderly are not working and neither are the welfare recipient.

They can threaten all they like. A quick call to legal aid will set that straight. Calling your neighbors etc may be the consequence of applying for a credit card you know you can't afford

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They call in early morning hours. They read scripts they have developed to get the "customer" angry, scared, anxious and a whole range of emotions. So the "customer" sends them the rent money or the light money or money needed for groceries at the end of the month. And this game is repeated over and over until finally the "customer" can't come up with the money and the card is sent to collections. By the time the account is settled the card company will have received anywhere from 5 to 20 times the actual amount of the principle the "customer" charged on the card.

Highly doubtful.They cease to pay.As to the rest these people are living in an adult world that is not so nice. They have personal responsibilities. Collection services can do nothing to this group. They can however go after those that have had steady jobs and kept current and then a crisis hits. They do not have the protection of the ignorant

Of course people that have never been in that position really don't know what they are talking about. I have worked with several people in positions like that.

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Credit card companies make me think of the words of Christ.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation... Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess... Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

Fits a lot of people and situations.Nothing unique about credit cards.

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The scribes and Pharisees presented themselves as being religious but they stole from the people and Jesus hated their dishonesty.

What does this have to do with it. Read the contract instead of blaming everyone else

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Credit company present themselves to people as offering them a needed service. They flatter and entice people to accept their card so they can later victimize them. How can they escape the damnation of hell? They are in the same class of people as those making pornography. They operate within the law but leave a trail of victims in their wake.

If people continue to be so ignorant as to be "flattered and enticed" maybe someone should get them taking a long look at their own greed,wanting something at a cheap rate.

Personally I still don't believe you have the God given right to judge all with your little victim brush. Some people need victims to feel like a rescuer I guess,but it doesn't leave you free to condemn and hope for hell for others.That is a right you do not possess nor ever will.

When you ask this.....How can they escape the damnation of hell? Let me ask you. How can you escape being judged just as you are judging?

You are not the one to judge those you see as eternal victims as helpless ignorant people.

God probably has a far better,far more fair judgment on that.He will take care of hell for all without your very able assistance.

[bonnie]

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Yes, this is another scam these scum bags use. They play the same game but now they don't lose a dime because they actually never invested a dime. They charge the same fees and penalties. I think these have become much less common in the past few years because of debit cards.

The person doesn't have to lose a dime either. They read the terms.They know they cannot repay so they don't sign.That is always 100%

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The scum bags normally target widows that had husbands taking care of the finances all their lives. So these widows don't know too much more than college kids just starting life. I have seen way to many get sucked into the credit card companies' traps.

Really.Proof of that please. College kids should know enough to read the contract. The last 30 years it is pretty uncommon to find the wife who knows nothing.

People can table their common sense if they want a good deal for little or nothing,but most really are not ignorant. You seem to have a real strong need to make them so,especially women

[bonnie]

You seem driven to make women a foolish ignorant sex and the men must come to save them.

Women are as ambitious as men,as great as a man can be,they can manipulate,they can shirk responsibility,they can be addicts as men.

Women can read a contract as well as any man. They can stretch a dollar for the family sometimes better. Women are capable of work,school and a child better than most men.

When there are those that are continually making them some helpless little victim and that nothing is a personal responsibility,why would many of them feel a need to change.

With the help available and if they don't take it,it is not because they are a victim.

A lot of people do seem to need victims and have victimizers to rail against.

I am so glad that my siblings and I never had to deal with that.

It was tough going at times but we never did hear how ignorant we were because we were poor.For that I thank God as I think our lives would have turned out far different

[Dr. Shane]

They receive 426.50 on their electronic debit card. She is able to feed her family just fine.