Can we pursue capitalism____

[Dr. Shane]

Why do you think (most) businesses like to keep their monetary business practices secret?

I think, for the most part, business want their financial information to be kept secret from their competitors much more than their customers. Of course, the IRS has access to all of it and public corporations must provide their financial statements to their stock holders.

[Dr. Shane]

What about those industries that have patents? If there is no other way to manufacture a product, except thru ONE method, a monopoly would exist on the perceived product, especially one that was needed, for example like certain pharmaceuticals. Is industry allowed to set a price for those type of products, especially when life is concerned?

This brings up an excellent example of needed government regulation. That is protection of copyrights and intellectual property. These rights and protections are established, regulated and enforced by the government. Without protection of intellectual property there would be no miracle drugs. Pharmaceutical companies make medicine for one reason - profit. If they can't earn profit, they stop making drugs. Take away the government protection of intellectual property and we don't have to worry about the price of these medicines because they will not be invented to begin with.

I am one that thinks there is not enough protection for pharmaceuticals and way too much protection of arts and entertainment. A company spends years and millions of dollars on developing a miracle drug and their copyright protect starts when they first get the patent. It still takes years to get FDA approval. By the time they get FDA approval they only have a few years to sell it under their patent. Walt Disney on the other hand can make a move have gets decades of copyright protection on it. That seems a little mixed up. What is more important to us as a society? Discovering miracle drugs or making new movies?

[LifeHiscost]

But I do hear you Shane, and I have no answers either.

pk

Not that the world in general is going to receive this answer, nor that those who do receive it will never be taken advantage of, I would like to say you do have the answer PK, along with others who are really a good part of why capitalism has survived this long. Which, by every evidence, is fast coming to an end.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."John 8:32 KJV

And may I suggest, it is the practice of what one knows that tends toward success or failure.

"Righteousness exalts a nation, But sin is a reproach to any people."Proverbs 14:34 KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

It is not the business of government to control that

That was Madoffs reasoning also. To the tune of $50,000,000,000,

with a capital B.

And you as well as many others are paying the price, one of the prices being a national indebtedness of 12-13 trillion dollars, not to mention the devaluation of the U.S. dollar.

Obviously there are other mitigating factors, not the least of which is____

"Justice is turned back, And righteousness stands afar off; For truth is fallen in the street, And equity cannot enter."Isaiah 59:14 NKJV

Blessings!

[there buster]

Quote:

Capitalism does not need government regulation.

This is the argument set forth by libertarianism. Conservatives, liberals and moderates disagree.

You are mistaken.

Conservatives do not think capitalism needs regulation. It is not capitalism, but human misbehavior which must be punished.

Bernie Madoff was not engaged in capitalism. He was engaged in fraud. He simply applied that fraud to money. It could have been applied in a number of other areas.

Equating Madoff's fraud with capitalism is sloppy reasoning.

[LifeHiscost]

And what about the Christian perspective....Is it right for a Christian to set his price above the costs 150%..? or just 30%? Granted, it IS what the market will bear, but is the market what sets the price for the Christian or does fairness? Is a Christian in the market to be rich or to glorify God? Does a Christian get rich because he passes a product at a fair price and everyone flocks to him due to his prices or does he get rich because God "blesses" him with a good location? What is the standard for a Christian businessman?

Very astute questioning, Neil. And when I buy or sell, is my most important concern always to make the highest dollar for my good. Sounds like____Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me sung with gusto.

Blessings!

[there buster]

Quote:

If a monopoly exists, does that mean that Government is not allowed to get involved?

There have been situations where monopoly pricing exist among industry sectors...Does government have a right to regulate then?

What about those industries that have patents? If there is no other way to manufacture a product, except thru ONE method, a monopoly would exist on the perceived product, especially one that was needed, for example like certain pharmaceuticals. Is industry allowed to set a price for those type of products, especially when life is concerned?

And what about the Christian perspective....Is it right for a Christian to set his price above the costs 150%..? or just 30%? Granted, it IS what the market will bear, but is the market what sets the price for the Christian or does fairness?

More muddled reasoning.

A monopoly can only exist with the aid of government. A patent is a government granted and government enforced document.

And 'fairness' is a word which is impossible to quantify.

Is it fair if a physician who saves the lives of countless children should lose one of his own?

If my life is saved by a policeman, what is a 'fair' compensation.

If I invent a device which allows you to make a million dollars, how much of that million would 'fairly' belong to me.

'Fairness' sounds wonderful, but ends up being meaningless, at best, and diabolical, at worst. In economics, its usually just old envy in disguise.

[doctorj]

Any -ism that does not have God within it is foreign to the Christian. Capitalism is possibly the most insidious form of -ism in that it seems like one can live a Christian life. But I would suggest that Capitalism produces a false sense of security. We think we can "follow our dreams", but in a real sense those dreams can be dashed in a swift signature on the bottom line and suddenly our dream homes are gone, our jobs are lost, and so on . . .

People living in Socialist societies know when they need to step up and stand for what is right. This is often a much harder line to know when we need to do this in a capitalist society.

[there buster]

Quote:

Capitalism is possibly the most insidious form of -ism in that it seems like one can live a Christian life. But I would suggest that Capitalism produces a false sense of security.

Socialism is the most insidious form, because the state takes on the role of God-- and enforces it. Talk about a false sense of security, socialism promises to take care of all your needs--when it cannot even address most of them, and actively subverts others.

[LifeHiscost]

Any -ism that does not have God within it is foreign to the Christian. Capitalism is possibly the most insidious form of -ism in that it seems like one can live a Christian life. But I would suggest that Capitalism produces a false sense of security. We think we can "follow our dreams", but in a real sense those dreams can be dashed in a swift signature on the bottom line and suddenly our dream homes are gone, our jobs are lost, and so on . . .

People living in Socialist societies know when they need to step up and stand for what is right. This is often a much harder line to know when we need to do this in a capitalist society.

There is a measure of socialism in practically all free societies

but I would like to say your top paragraph probably expresses my personal opinion without deviation.

Blessings!

[bonnie]

Quote:

This whole line of questioning in response to my post is misdirected. I made no reference to government limiting profits. Competition will limit profits. However, government regulation is often required in order to assure fair competition.

Government regulation cannot assure fair anything. This is correct....Competition will limit profits and do a far better job than any government regulation will do.

Illegal activity,criminal conduct and safe working conditions is the business of government.Not how much I can make

[bonnie]

The christian perspective is not for you to determine for another.

In any given business there are many variables. What may appear to be excessive profits to those that have never taken a chance and run their own business is not necessarily reality.

The market will generally bear reasonable profit.When something becomes unreasonable it is up to the consumer to say no.Those charging excessively generally do not last long.

Of profits you might consider excessive you are not privy to how those profits may be spent.

Quote:

Very astute questioning, Neil. And when I buy or sell, is my most important concern always to make the highest dollar for my good. Sounds like____Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me sung with gusto.

Blessings! [/quote']

The reasoning is attempting to decide for another .Those that don't expect the most profit from what they are producing or doing will not be in business long to provide those that do not run their own business a living.

It is those making "excessive" profits that provide the bulk of individuals with employment.

If they don't worry about "me" there will not be any "you"

The money my husband received on any given job was not the business of a employee. The employee's business began and ended at the hourly rate. If that was the going rate and the employee agreed nothing else was his business.

The only concern of the homeowner was if he felt the price was what he was willing to pay. Not what my husband's profit was or what a employee was paid.

A large profit on one job did not translate into a large profit on all jobs.

Many factors need to be taken into consideration. If the employee is unhappy with a fair wage the solution is simple.Quit being an employee and become a employer with the perks and all the pitfalls of the employer

[bonnie]

Just as a side note, many of the building trades in our area have gone belly up. Those that have survived and still have the small amount of work available and a few hours of work for their employee's are the ones that gave "Me" a great deal of thought.

Keep costs as low as possible and profits as high as possible to survive during times when work is limited. That let's there be a "you" to survive tough economic downturns

[Dr. Shane]

You are mistaken.

Conservatives do not think capitalism needs regulation.

Conservatives do not believe in the government protecting private property rights? Do not believe in the government establishing child-labor laws? Do not believe in the government should establish speed limits? Do not believe the government should establish worker's compensation laws? Do not believe in anti-trust laws? Do not support agencies like the FDA, EPA or OSHA?

One might want to actually check the voting records of conservatives on regulatory issues before making a sweeping statement about them not supporting regulations. Yes, indeed, conservatives support government regulations. The difference between conservatives, moderates and liberals isn't the need for regulation but rather how and what to regulate.

[phkrause]

Thanks for the vote of confedense LHC.

pk

[LifeHiscost]

Thanks for the vote of confedense LHC.

pk

[there buster]

Quote:

Conservatives do not believe in the government protecting private property rights? Do not believe in the government establishing child-labor laws? Do not believe in the government should establish speed limits? Do not believe the government should establish worker's compensation laws? Do not believe in anti-trust laws? Do not support agencies like the FDA, EPA or OSHA?

What a muddle of issues. Private property rights have nothing to do with regulating the economy; neither do child labor laws nor speed limits. FDA, EPA, and OSHA have little to do with regulating the economy (and I have OSHA training and worked in EPA and OSHA compliance for a number of years). I do not believe worker's compensation laws actually benefit workers on balance.

You actually make my point. It is not capitalism that needs regulation, it is other human behaviors.

Will people behave unethically and immorally? Of course. Do we outlaw all such behaviors? No, to do so would be tyrannical. And it is always a mistake to try to deal with one set of behaviors through a law on something else.

Lying is a human problem. We do not outlaw all lying, nor should we. To make false advertising or fraudulent claims illegal is not regulating capitalism, it is dealing with human deceit.

That some politicians who call themselves conservative might vote for regulation says something about them, and not about conservatism.

[there buster]

Quote:

Pres. Ronald Reagan's trickle down theories that tend to believe that the richer those get at the top, the better those at the bottom will be.

No, that was not Reagan's theory. That is a fraudulent misrepresentation. In a free market, no exchange takes place unless both parties believe they will benefit. It is a system in which, if I want to benefit myself, I must provide something that others believe will benefit them. In such a system, everyone benefits.

In your sweatshop example, there were many violations of law, such as unlawful restraint. In a socialist economy, nearly everyone works under restraint.

[Dr. Shane]

It is not capitalism that needs regulation, it is other human behaviors.

Let's try to speak the same language. HUMAN BEHAVIORS must be regulated by the government in a capitalist society.

[there buster]

Quote:

HUMAN BEHAVIORS must be regulated by the government in a capitalist society.

Yes. But that is not the same as regulating capitalism.

And, in the end, it says nothing at all about capitalism, since HUMAN BEHAVIORS must be regulated by the government in any society.

One would have thought that obvious.

[Neil D]

Quote:

If a monopoly exists, does that mean that Government is not allowed to get involved?

There have been situations where monopoly pricing exist among industry sectors...Does government have a right to regulate then?

What about those industries that have patents? If there is no other way to manufacture a product, except thru ONE method, a monopoly would exist on the perceived product, especially one that was needed, for example like certain pharmaceuticals. Is industry allowed to set a price for those type of products, especially when life is concerned?

And what about the Christian perspective....Is it right for a Christian to set his price above the costs 150%..? or just 30%? Granted, it IS what the market will bear, but is the market what sets the price for the Christian or does fairness?

More muddled reasoning.

A monopoly can only exist with the aid of government. A patent is a government granted and government enforced document.

And 'fairness' is a word which is impossible to quantify.

Is it fair if a physician who saves the lives of countless children should lose one of his own?

If my life is saved by a policeman, what is a 'fair' compensation.

If I invent a device which allows you to make a million dollars, how much of that million would 'fairly' belong to me.

'Fairness' sounds wonderful, but ends up being meaningless, at best, and diabolical, at worst. In economics, its usually just old envy in disguise.

How can this be "muddled reasoning"? A Christian MUST be aware of his actions, and Who he represents...If a Christian is making a lot of money, the question is naturally going to come to the surface and be asked, "Who/what is guiding his activities?"...If God is the giver/sustainer thru good and bad times, then the Christian should be the vessel thru which other non-christians can see and glorify God....That means, that the actions of the Christian can not show nor should the behaviors reflect an attitude of "me-ness" aka "selfishness"...IOWs, the Christian does not steal, nor break the spirit of attempting to cheat a customer from his money. But neither should the Christian under sell his product such that the Chrisitan is in poverty either. A FAIR price needs to be shown such that God is glorified and the Christian still remains in business.

The question of "fairness" for the Christian is a viable question, as his values do not come from this world, but are a reflection of God's character and the Christain discipliship...Your question regarding

" 'fairness' being a word which is impossible to quantify."

In this case, fairness means free from favoritism, self-interest, or preference in judgment. Fair is the most general: a fair referee; a fair deal. Scriptures talk of fairness and equity...If scriptures can quantify fairness, who are we to stand in the way of that fairness..especially with the oppressed, orphan, and the widows...If kingdoms are established with fairness thru the decisions of Kings, then it appears that fairness does have a quality that is accountable...

Proverbs 29:14

If a king judges the poor with fairness, his throne will always be secure.

Micah 6:8

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Tell me, how does the Christian business man do this within his business kingdom with out having pronouncements like this hanging over you?

1-3 And a final word to you arrogant rich: Take some lessons in lament. You'll need buckets for the tears when the crash comes upon you. Your money is corrupt and your fine clothes stink. Your greedy luxuries are a cancer in your gut, destroying your life from within. You thought you were piling up wealth. What you've piled up is judgment.

On a related question, how can you say that a monopoly can only exist with the help of goverment? Historically, this is very inaccurate, it seems to me...Concider this tidbit-

Since the notion of monopoly is antithetical to the free market ideal, it has never been popular in capitalist nations. In the United States, the most famous monopoly was John D. Rockefeller's Standard Oil Trust in the late 19th cent. Despite such legislation as the 1890 Sherman Antitrust Act (the first significant legal statute against monopoly), it was the Supreme Court that forced the break-up of Standard Oil, along with other monopolies. Since the 1960s, however, the U.S. Justice Dept. has occasionally been more active in attacking monopolies or near monopolies (such as AT&T and IBM); a major case in the 1990s involved the Microsoft Corp. (see Bill Gates)

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

HUMAN BEHAVIORS must be regulated by the government in a capitalist society.

Yes. But that is not the same as regulating capitalism.

And, in the end, it says nothing at all about capitalism, since HUMAN BEHAVIORS must be regulated by the government in any society.

One would have thought that obvious.

NO, it is not obvious at all. As we look over the history of our nation we can see a progressive and continual improvement in the standard of living and personal freedoms. There have been dips such as those during the Great Depression and some of our wars but if charted the graph would show the overall direction of an upward climbing line. Much of that is due to regulation, often caused by civil disobedience and bloodshed.

• Child-labor laws are government regulation.
• The 40-hour work week is government regulation.
• National holidays are government regulation.
• Unemployment insurance is government regulation.
• Social Security is government regulation.
• Mandating Saturday off for Sabbath keepers is government regulation.
• Non-discrimination laws are government regulation.
• Anti-trust laws are government regulation.
• Minimum wage laws are government regulation.
• Environmental laws are government regulation.
• Workplace safety laws are government regulation.
• Traffic laws are government regulation.
• Banning slavery is government regulation.

Many of the Libertarian mindset advocate less government without thinking through the implications of that philosophy. They glamorized the founding fathers without actually considering the state of the nation at its founding. Children were working in factories. Workers were paid so little they basically were working so they could eat. The gap between the rich and the poor was huge. Homesteading was attractive because it was a means out of poverty but it often meant leaving loved ones behind and NEVER seeing them again. Slavery was legal. Religious and racist discrimination was legal. Given a choice, nearly anyone would choose to live in 2009 America rather than 1790 America.

[Dr. Shane]

Tell me, how does the Christian business man do this within his business kingdom with out having pronouncements like this hanging over you?

1-3 And a final word to you arrogant rich: Take some lessons in lament. You'll need buckets for the tears when the crash comes upon you. Your money is corrupt and your fine clothes stink. Your greedy luxuries are a cancer in your gut, destroying your life from within. You thought you were piling up wealth. What you've piled up is judgment.

The verses quoted simple do not apply to Christian businessmen. Christian businessmen do not fall into the category of "arrogant rich".

[Robert]

It [Capitalism] simply means private ownership of businesses.

[Robert]

The main reason I consider socialism incompatible with Christian principles is that God calls us each to personal responsibility and stewardship, and gives us freedom to choose to obey or not.

Well then, I guess you would have a problem with the following:

Acts 4:32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul ; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. 33 .... 34 For there was not a needy person among them [how so?], for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales 35 and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need....

What was that? "All things were common property"! That sounds like Socialism!!! The difference: Agape! That's the ingredient that neither Capitalism nor socialism has in it....

But setting that aside let's look at what's best for humanity outside "the kingdom of God":

You see I lean towards a mixture of Capitalism and Socialism....Most proud Republicans believe in "Laissez-faire Capitalism". That simply means very little if any regulation, you know the kind of Capitalism that got us into this recession!

I voted for Obama - primarily on trade issues....And I can't stand the hypocrisy with those who rant against his so called "Socialism." You know what I say to such folks? Get off the socialistic highway!!! Thank about it...taxes are nothing more than redistribution of the wealth. Socialism pays for the road you drive on.

Now of course I believe if a man can work and doesn't then he won't eat. But if man can't work...or can't get work...then as Christians we should practice our heavenly socialism.

Again, look at the early church....I can't find a church that has "all things in common" where those who have much give so there's not a needy person among them!

Capitalism is not a virtue....It belongs to this world. Socialism, while it's not governed by agape too, works best with Capitalism....But all will fail eventually. But with "Laissez-faire Capitalism" the rich get richer and the poor, poorer.