Can we pursue capitalism____

[Robert]

God's own rules for a theocracy included individual stewardship and responsibility. Every man was to have his own land, and be responsible for the use of the resources God gave to him.

God takes folks where they are at....Please don't take this to mean God believes in ownership!!! God's agape is selfless....Everything it does is outside self....In heaven you'll be wealthy not because your self-centeredness and self-seeking, but because of those around you.

EGW:

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

So yes, you'll have a mansion, but since there's no "self" your so called mansion will be for the benefit of others....You'll have all things in common.

Again, EGW:

Selfishness girds many about as with iron bands. It is “my farm,” “my goods,” “my trade,” “my merchandise.” Even the claims of common humanity are disregarded by them. Men and women professing to be waiting and loving the appearing of their Lord are shut up to self. The noble, the godlike, they have parted with. The love of the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life, have so fastened upon them that they are blinded. They are corrupted by the world and discern it not.

[there buster]

Quote:

we can see a progressive and continual improvement in . . . personal freedoms. . . .Much of that is due to regulation, often caused by civil disobedience and bloodshed.

* Child-labor laws are government regulation.

* The 40-hour work week is government regulation.

* National holidays are government regulation.

* Unemployment insurance is government regulation.

* Social Security is government regulation.

* Mandating Saturday off for Sabbath keepers is government regulation.

* Non-discrimination laws are government regulation.

* Anti-trust laws are government regulation.

* Minimum wage laws are government regulation.

* Environmental laws are government regulation.

* Workplace safety laws are government regulation.

* Traffic laws are government regulation.

* Banning slavery is government regulation.

The leading statement is demonstrably false. And most of the 'government regulations' you cite have nothing to do with the free market or capitalism. You continually conflate almost any law you can think of with 'regulation of capitalism.' Many of your examples have to do with hiring practices. Some of them violate the principle declared by Jesus in Mat. 20. And most, if not all, apply equally to a socialist or mercantilist economy. They do not regulate capitalism.

Then you insist on talking about libertarians, for reasons which escape me. So far, with all the verbiage, you have not actually discussed regulating capitalism, only a hodge-podge of other laws.

[Tom Wetmore]

What a muddle of issues. Private property rights have nothing to do with regulating the economy; neither do child labor laws nor speed limits. FDA, EPA, and OSHA have little to do with regulating the economy (and I have OSHA training and worked in EPA and OSHA compliance for a number of years). I do not believe worker's compensation laws actually benefit workers on balance.

You actually make my point. It is not capitalism that needs regulation, it is other human behaviors.

Will people behave unethically and immorally? Of course. Do we outlaw all such behaviors? No, to do so would be tyrannical. And it is always a mistake to try to deal with one set of behaviors through a law on something else.

Lying is a human problem. We do not outlaw all lying, nor should we. To make false advertising or fraudulent claims illegal is not regulating capitalism, it is dealing with human deceit...

I understand your point. It is an important distinction.

I think part of the problem and perhaps a major contributing factor in the muddle of confusion is what capitalism has become as a result of so much unethical and immoral human behavior invading and infecting the purist notions of capitalism. Capitalism has become corrupted. But this is the dilemma faced by socialism and any other economic/governance theory. The problem is not with the pure ideal. It is with the corrupted execution of that ideal. And that execution of the pure ideal by flawed means and motives asks for external forces to keep things closer to the idea.

[Robert]

Capitalism has become corrupted.

It's worldly...so it has always been corrupted, but with technology it's becoming more corrupt.

Let's face it, Washington is controlled by special interest groups....They send lobbyist with bags of money and goodies....We vote the crooks in and then big business takes over. It's getting worse.

Rob

[phkrause]

You are absolutely correct Robert. But don't forget after Nixon was elected in '68 and he allowed all those increases of products to all those companies that donated to his campaign they passed that law limiting the amount that companies can donate. Not that that did anything, they found ways around that.

pk

[Gerr]

Capitalism as a principle is probably the best for a fallen world. But as it is practiced, I think there's a lot of truth to Shane's observation about exploitation. Fallen beings that we are, greed becomes the prevailing motivation and not just a simple exchange of services. Most have no qualms about taking advantage of the other as much as they could get away with. Business wants to make as much money as possible and pay the least possible. For that reason, I understand and sympathize with the poor working man for banding together to form unions to counteract that power and try to get as much as they can get away with.

[Robert]

I understand and sympathize with the poor working man for banding together to form unions to counteract that power and try to get as much as they can get away with.

Right....Unions have their problems, but they are a counteraction to greed....

Now many SDA are against unions because of EGW. But couldn't she have been against the violence and mob connections seen in the unions of her day? Anyway, that was a rhetorical question.

[phkrause]

You make a very good point Robert.

pk

[Dr. Shane]

Unions would not have had much impact without government regulation. In fact history shows that unions didn't have a major impact until they started getting government support. And the work place is a much better place because of government intervention. Government intervention created the middle class. The Davis-Bacon Act was passed in 1931 which didn't help the Depression at all but once the Depression was over there was an economic boom in the US. Home ownership and the middle class ballooned.

Government regulation also made the work place much safer. Before OSHA, construction was one of the most dangerous jobs. Hundreds of construction workers died every year. Now only a fraction of what had before become acceptable die and we have thousands more in the industry working.

Government regulation has also made it easier to find work due to the anti-discrimination laws. When I was a baby my family moved out to Utah and my father was unable to find work because he wasn't a Mormon. That kind of discrimination was common before the 1970s.

Government regulation also makes borrowing money affordable and available to the masses. Many developing countries are still over a century behind us because the common people do not have access to affordable loans. Thus they cannot purchase property or build homes. This prevents them from starting small businesses. Affordable loans are a result of government regulation.

The idea that unregulated capitalism would produce an advanced society is quite naive. There are countries on the planet today that practice what is nearly unregulated capitalism and they are way behind the US. Unregulated capitalism allows those with money to take advantage of those without money. Those in poverty stay there for generations. Unregulated capitalism may well be worse than socialism. However capitalism with government regulation has produced the most prosperous nation in the history of the planet.

[Dr. Shane]

6 And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory ; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

That is what the father of lies has to say about it.

This is what God has to say:

The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it,

the world, and all who live in it (Psalms 24:1)

Given the choice to believe the devil or God.... Hmmmmmmm,,, Let me think,,,,,, Yea,,, I think I'll go with God.

[Gerr]

Quote:

The idea that unregulated capitalism would produce an advanced society is quite naive.

Yep. I believe that's what got us into the mess in right now.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Originally Posted By: GreatLakesGramma

The main reason I consider socialism incompatible with Christian principles is that God calls us each to personal responsibility and stewardship, and gives us freedom to choose to obey or not.

Well then, I guess you would have a problem with the following:

Acts 4:32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul ; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. 33 .... 34 For there was not a needy person among them [how so?], for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales 35 and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need....

Nope, no problem at all. Because all of that was completely voluntary. They were following God's leading in the use of what He had given them. There was no government confiscating anything from anybody.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Robert

6 And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory ; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

That is what the father of lies has to say about it.

This is what God has to say:

The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it,

the world, and all who live in it (Psalms 24:1)

Given the choice to believe the devil or God.... Hmmmmmmm,,, Let me think,,,,,, Yea,,, I think I'll go with God.

The Earth has been turned over to Satan by God. Granted ... God is still in control and can put an end to it all at any time. However ... the Great Controversy has to be played out and God has to be see as just and good. So ... the misery continues.

[Dr. Shane]

The Jehovah Witnesses believe the Earth has been turned over to Satan. They are free to believe that if they want to. I happen to be a Seventh-day Adventist Christian. The only one saying the Earth belongs to Satan in the Bible is... Satan and he has a little credibility problem with me.

[GreatLakesGramma]

Only man's dominion over the earth was turned over to Satan, when Adam chose him as his master.

[there buster]

Quote:

Yep. I believe that's what got us into the mess in right now.

What got us into this mess was government intrusion into the mortgage business. Without congress' meddling and subsidizing bad loans, and securitizing them through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, there would have been no housing crisis, and no toxic assets. No housing crisis, no economic crisis.

The free market had not incentive to make bad loans, until government decided to subsidize them.

[Guest]

Amen!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

6 And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory ; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish.

That is what the father of lies has to say about it.

This is what God has to say:

The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it,

the world, and all who live in it (Psalms 24:1)

Given the choice to believe the devil or God.... Hmmmmmmm,,, Let me think,,,,,, Yea,,, I think I'll go with God.

2. Development of Sin

While sin originated in the mind of Lucifer in heaven, it was never allowed to develop in heaven. It was on this earth that Satan and his angels developed sin. Let us see how this was done:

* Genesis 1:26, 28. God created this earth for man and, therefore, gave him dominion over it.

* Luke 4:5, 6. By deceiving our first parents (Adam and Eve) and causing them to fall, Satan took possession of this world and made it his own; this is based on the principle recorded in 2 Peter 2:19. Please note that Jesus did not question Satan’s claim that the world was delivered to him.

* John 14:30. Since the fall of man, Satan has become the “prince of this world.”

* 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. Paul refers to Satan as the “god of this world.”

* 1 John 5:19. The whole world, apart from the Christian, is under the control of Satan, or as the Greek text actually says, “the wicked one.”

* 2 Peter 2:19. Man defeated by Satan is in bondage (slavery) to him [John 8:34; Romans 6:17].

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

In the New Testament and especially in the book of Revelation the term “Babylon” is used as a symbol to represent the spiritual kingdom of this world which is under Satan and is in opposition to God’s kingdom and His people [Revelation 14:8, 17:3-6; 18:1-3]. The basis of this symbol is founded in literal Babylon of the Old Testament, the capital of the once-greatest empire this world has ever known [read Daniel 2]. According to Dan. 4:30, the great city of Babylon was built on the principle of self-love and, therefore, represents a fitting symbol of Satan’s kingdom. In contrast, “Jerusalem,” which represents Christ’s kingdom, is from above and is called “the holy city” [Galatians 4:26; Revelation 21:10].

Because Satan is a liar and a deceiver there is much of this world that appears to be good (this is especially designed to be a trap for Christians), but at the end of the world, when Satan will be completely exposed, it will be seen that the whole world (good and bad) worships the dragon “that deceived the whole world” [Revelation 12:9; 13:3-4]. God has allowed Satan to have his own way and develop sin in this world for some 6,000 years. But the time has come when Satan and his kingdom must be exposed and destroyed forever [2 Peter 3:10-13; Psalm 92:7-9].

But for the fallen human race, held in captivity by Satan, God has made a way of escape [2 Peter 3:9]. This is the Good News of the gospel which He wants all to know and receive. According to Matthew 25:34, God has prepared the heavenly kingdom for men “from the foundation of the world,” while verse 41 indicates that the destroying fires of hell have been prepared only “for the devil and his angels.” According to John 3:16, “God so loved the world [the human race] that he gave his only begotten Son,” so that none may perish, but instead all may have eternal life. Those who respond in faith to God’s love manifested in the gift of His Son will experience the deliverence from the condemnation which is resting on Satan and his kingdom [Romans 8:1; John 5:24]. [JS]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Well then, I guess you would have a problem with the following:

Acts 4:32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul ; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. 33 .... 34 For there was not a needy person among them [how so?'], for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales 35 and lay them at the apostles' feet, and they would be distributed to each as any had need....

Nope, no problem at all. Because all of that was completely voluntary. They were following God's leading in the use of what He had given them. There was no government confiscating anything from anybody.

You are thinking of Communism....

As far as Socialism, we have it here in the US: All taxes, Social Security, all welfare...even insurance (medical/auto, etc)

[Guest]

Why are you up so late Robert? Did you have a bad dream and wake up?

[GreatLakesGramma]

Socialism is just the first step leading to Communism. Once socialism is in place, coercion follows soon after.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Yep. I believe that's what got us into the mess in right now.

What got us into this mess was government intrusion into the mortgage business...

That is the Rush Limbaugh version of how things happened. However the Federal Reserve had more to do with it than Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Government regulation is needed in the banking industry. My company is currently doing work in Africa where the government allows the banking industry to go pretty much unregulated and it is an entirely different world. Not too many people financing homes in that country. Home construction is pretty much neighbors getting together with bamboo.

[Dr. Shane]

* Luke 4:5, 6. By deceiving our first parents (Adam and Eve) and causing them to fall, Satan took possession of this world and made it his own;

[there buster]

Quote:

What got us into this mess was government intrusion into the mortgage business...

That is the Rush Limbaugh version of how things happened.

No. That is the simple fact. "Greedy capitalists" have no incentive to grant loans that will not be paid back. No profit in that. No matter how loose the money policy is, no matter what the Fed does, if a loan isn't paid back, there's no profit.

So why were these "greedy capitalists" so foolish as to make risky loans? One reason, and only one. The Government guaranteed them. So there was NO RISK, and a high return. Only government guarantee could remove the risk. Of course, the government cannot repeal the laws of supply and demand. What they did was transfer the risk from the mortgage bankers to everyone else.

When Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (Government sponsored enterprises), bundled mortgages into securities, they hid bad loans with good ones, and poisoned the entire business (thus the term "toxic assets.") Because they were bundled together, no one knew the extent to which the default was possible.

Insurance companies, like AIG, must invest their funds to stay solvent. They invested in government guaranteed bonds--the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac toxic assets--to maximize their return.

None of this would have happened without continual congressional prodding to provide mortgages to people who couldn't pay them back.

Government could distort the market, but could not repeal the laws of economics. Eventually people who could not afford the mortgages defaulted. The process cascaded. Because the bad loans had been concealed with others in government backed securities, and no one could separate everything out, the entire system became suspect. No one knew what was safe. And so the system froze up, institutions simply not knowing who or what could be trusted.

No mortgage crisis, no economic crisis.

[Woody]

If God is in control of this earth ... I would rather not go to Heaven. I would prefer just taking my chances here.