Can we pursue capitalism____

[wayfinder]

God takes control of this earth when the seventh trumpet sounds, that hasn't happened yet. God needs to win the war against the forces of the evil one. He needs an army to do that and that is what He is preparing right now. The book of Revelation explains and describes this war and its outcome. God wins!

[Guest]

If God is in control of this earth ... I would rather not go to Heaven. I would prefer just taking my chances here.

You do have that option.

[Guest]

God takes control of this earth when the seventh trumpet sounds, that hasn't happened yet.

So you're saying that God is not in control now?

[wayfinder]

God is preparing His people/kingdom to make war against the beast (lion-bear-leopard) Rev. 13 (first beast). This is the worldwide govermental body set up by the dragon to make war against the saints/kingdom of God. The dragon is in control of the governments of this world and is, at this time creating a situation which will bring them together as one body when the trumpets sound. Revelation 12 says there was war in heaven. Michael and His angels fought against the dragon and his angels.... Michael won the war and the dragon was cast out of heaven. Now Michael is preparing his people to wage war against the dragon. When the saints win the war against the dragon the seventh trumpet sounds and there is on longer a place found for the dragon on earth, or anywhere else in the universe, so he and his own will ultimately face the final solution (the second death).

[bonnie]

Quote:

That is the Rush Limbaugh version of how things happened. However the Federal Reserve had more to do with it than Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Government regulation is needed in the banking industry. My company is currently doing work in Africa where the government allows the banking industry to go pretty much unregulated and it is an entirely different world. Not too many people financing homes in that country. Home construction is pretty much neighbors getting together with bamboo.

Rush Limbaugh did not create the mess.

Lenders did not have much choice,lend or pay the penalties. Everyone deserved to be a homeowner no matter what

Bad loans,loans that were known to be high risk at the time they were given.

Non qualifying loans were given out like candy at a parade.

If you were standing upright and still taking a breath now and then you qualified. What did anyone think would happen???

The government was backing the bad loans.

A friend of mine,a single mother had her home free and clear following the death of her husband .She didn't care to work so re-fied her home to the tune of 185,000. No qualifying was required,no job,no credit checks.

Just imagine her surprise when she found out it had to be paid back. Of course by the time she figured that outit was to late. In typical fashion she blamed the lender for making it possible for her to obtain a loan

allows the banking industry to go pretty much unregulated and it is an entirely different world

The banks and the lenders were not happy about having to make many of these loans,nor did they want to pay penalties for discriminatory lending practises

[phkrause]

Come on Redwood, God is definitely in control, otherwise things would be a lot worse. When he finally allows the angels that are holding back the winds of evil to let go, than we will see what really happens when God is not in control. All hell will break lose.

pk

[lazarus]

The current economic crisis was caused by much more than the activities of Fannie and Freddie.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/who_caused_the_economic_crisis.html

The Real Deal

So who is to blame? There's plenty of blame to go around, and it doesn't fasten only on one party or even mainly on what Washington did or didn't do. As The Economist magazine noted recently, the problem is one of "layered irresponsibility ... with hard-working homeowners and billionaire villains each playing a role." Here's a partial list of those alleged to be at fault:

* The Federal Reserve, which slashed interest rates after the dot-com bubble burst, making credit cheap.

* Home buyers, who took advantage of easy credit to bid up the prices of homes excessively.

* Congress, which continues to support a mortgage tax deduction that gives consumers a tax incentive to buy more expensive houses.

* Real estate agents, most of whom work for the sellers rather than the buyers and who earned higher commissions from selling more expensive homes.

* The Clinton administration, which pushed for less stringent credit and downpayment requirements for working- and middle-class families.

* Mortgage brokers, who offered less-credit-worthy home buyers subprime, adjustable rate loans with low initial payments, but exploding interest rates.

* Former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan, who in 2004, near the peak of the housing bubble, encouraged Americans to take out adjustable rate mortgages.

* Wall Street firms, who paid too little attention to the quality of the risky loans that they bundled into Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS), and issued bonds using those securities as collateral.

* The Bush administration, which failed to provide needed government oversight of the increasingly dicey mortgage-backed securities market.

* An obscure accounting rule called mark-to-market, which can have the paradoxical result of making assets be worth less on paper than they are in reality during times of panic.

* Collective delusion, or a belief on the part of all parties that home prices would keep rising forever, no matter how high or how fast they had already gone up.

The U.S. economy is enormously complicated. Screwing it up takes a great deal of cooperation. Claiming that a single piece of legislation was responsible for (or could have averted) the crisis is just political grandstanding. We have no advice to offer on how best to solve the financial crisis. But these sorts of partisan caricatures can only make the task more difficult.

–by Joe Miller and Brooks Jackson

[Dr. Shane]

Well, Lazarus...

You know what I have to say to that?

You...

Are...

100%...

Correct!!!!

[Dr. Shane]

If God is in control of this earth ...

God is in control but He allows evil to take its course because He is on trial. The only way the "prince" of this world can be kicked out (John 12:31) is if Someone greater is in control.

[phkrause]

Good post Lazarus. Seems like all would like to put blame in one place or another, instead of all the things that created the problem. But of course some of those that created the problem also benefited from the situation.

pk

[there buster]

Nice try. But let's examine each one in turn.

* The Federal Reserve, which slashed interest rates after the dot-com bubble burst, making credit cheap.

Federal Reserve is part of government regulation. However, cheap credit does not dictate what people invest in.

* Home buyers, who took advantage of easy credit to bid up the prices of homes excessively.

Government regulation distorts the market 'cheap credit,' and that causes problems. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pushing 'sub prime' loans adds to the supply of money, and they are shocked, shocked, that prices rise.

* Congress, which continues to support a mortgage tax deduction that gives consumers a tax incentive to buy more expensive houses.

Notice a pattern? Congress is a part of government distortion, er regulation.

* Real estate agents, most of whom work for the sellers rather than the buyers and who earned higher commissions from selling more expensive homes.

With the supply of money increased by government, and support for mortgages, demand for houses rises. What a surprise! With demand artificially pumped (all by government), and a finite supply of housing, prices rise. Oh, but it's the fault of greedy Real Estate agents. Right.

* The Clinton administration, which pushed for less stringent credit and downpayment requirements for working- and middle-class families.

The Clinton administration? Were they part of government? Or greedy capitalists? Government strikes again.

* Mortgage brokers, who offered less-credit-worthy home buyers subprime, adjustable rate loans with low initial payments, but exploding interest rates.

The Clinton administration threatened banks that did not offer subprime loans with lawsuits; and they guaranteed them through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Gee, aren't those all government actions?

* Former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan, who in 2004, near the peak of the housing bubble, encouraged Americans to take out adjustable rate mortgages.

Federal Reserve? Isn't that a government entity?

* Wall Street firms, who paid too little attention to the quality of the risky loans that they bundled into Mortgage Backed Securities (MBS), and issued bonds using those securities as collateral.

This is a hoot! Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are the firms that bundled risky loans into MBS's. Since those were guaranteed by government, firms had every reason to assume they were sound. In fact, as mentioned before, Freddie and Fannie's actions guaranteed that it was impossible to tell which securities were sound and which were not. Did I mention that Freddie and Fannie were government entities?

* The Bush administration, which failed to provide needed government oversight of the increasingly dicey mortgage-backed securities market.

The Bush administration repeatedly introduced legislation to reign in Fannie and Freddie, but idiots like Barney Frank insisted there was no problem (Barney insisted that as late as summer 2008).

* An obscure accounting rule called mark-to-market, which can have the paradoxical result of making assets be worth less on paper than they are in reality during times of panic.

Where on earth did this 'obscure accounting rule' come from? Can it be? Oh, yeah, something called Sarbanes-Oxley. And what was Sarbanes-Oxley? Government distortion of the accounting process.

* Collective delusion, or a belief on the part of all parties that home prices would keep rising forever, no matter how high or how fast they had already gone up.

True. But this delusion was repeatedly reinforced by Democrats in Congress such as Barney Frank, who continually insisted, 'The risk is overstated.'

[phkrause]

Well Barney Frank, the crazy that he is, didn't pass that all by himself. How many others voted with him????????? It might have been government that's for sure, but greed won out, because all those that voted to keep that going all benefited from it, did they not?????

pk

[bonnie]

Quote:

The Clinton administration, which pushed for less stringent credit and downpayment requirements for working- and middle-class families.

Quote:

The Clinton administration? Were they part of government? Or greedy capitalists? Government strikes again.

Didn't Clinton blame the democrats for the housing mess,claiming that he along with republicans tried to reign it in?

Quote:

The Bush administration, which failed to provide needed government oversight of the increasingly dicey mortgage-backed securities market.

The Bush administration introduced legislation a total of 17 times I believe.Barny Frank was the chief scoffer at any attempt to reign it in

[phkrause]

I think that your right Bonnie. But yet Barney still won out, because it benefited him and those that voted that in. Why give up something that makes you money in the long run?

pk

[there buster]

Quote:

It might have been government that's for sure

You miss the point. ONLY government could have done those things. Greedy individuals in the private sector might have wanted some of those things, but only government had the power of coercion--to turn their personal greed into government mandates that others had to comply with.

A private banker might urge others to issue risky loans, but his urging wouldn't override their own judgment. Government can force us to do things we would not otherwise do, even when those things are foolhardy.

[LifeHiscost]

#302146 - 28/11/2009 09:33

I thought that was a very good post, Neil. To put it succinctly for my Christian behavior and effort to glorify God, whatever I do that tends to impoverish my neighbor, no matter how much I need their money, has no ability to glorify God nor the keeping of these instructions by the Holy One.

"So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”" Luke 10:27 NKJV

Blessings!

[Robert]

Satan is the "god" of this world because the people here worship him.

No Shane...way off! Very few actually worship Satan. Satan is the God of this world because his principle of "self" is seen everywhere....Capitalism is filled with iniquity too! It's not God's way of doing things....

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

#302146 - 28/11/2009 09:33

I thought that was a very good post, Neil. To put it succinctly for my Christian behavior and effort to glorify God, whatever I do that tends to impoverish my neighbor, no matter how much I need their money, has no ability to glorify God nor the keeping of these instructions by the Holy One.

"So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”" Luke 10:27 NKJV

Blessings!

How does hard work translate. into impoverishing your neighbor.

None of the local business men can impoverish my life.To high,I go without or find it cheaper.

[Robert]

If God is in control of this earth ... I would rather not go to Heaven. I would prefer just taking my chances here.

Good point! How many babies are aborted per day? How many murders? Wars? Death in general? Diseases? The list goes on and on....

God does force himself upon individuals or governments. The further this nation distances itself from God the more trouble you'll see....God is holding back human strife (it could be worse) as He works in the lives of individuals, but many do not see their need of God. Hence the fruit of ungodliness in this world. When the Spirit of God pulls back from those who persistently reject Him, then you'll see trouble that is unimaginable.

Another thing - If this world is God's then why does He completely burn it up and create a new world? No, this world is corrupted...it is being ruined more and more by fallen men....

Even believers will not take this old life from Adam to heaven. Why? It's ruined by the fall.....We will receive a totally recreated humanity at the 2nd coming....

Rob

[Robert]

Socialism is just the first step leading to Communism.

Then don't pay your taxes....That's socialism....Don't drive on the road because you are benefiting from everyone paying in....The list goes on and on....

[Robert]

Rush Limbaugh did not create the mess.

Rush Limbaugh is a total nut! He's a money machine who makes his bucks off of spin!

[Robert]

Come on Redwood, God is definitely in control, otherwise things would be a lot worse.

That makes no sense....Things are bad now, but I agree they can get worse....But it's only because most have not completely hardened their heart against God. Without God's Spirit we are fully dominated by the principle of "self".

Again, God is partially in control as long as men have Him in their lives....We still die....The wages of sin is playing out in the lives of all!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

If God is in control of this earth ...

God is in control but He allows evil to take its course because He is on trial. The only way the "prince" of this world can be kicked out (John 12:31) is if Someone greater is in control.

No, Adam and Eve allowed Satan to become this world's leader by the principle seen in 2 Peter 2:19

"for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved."

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Rush Limbaugh did not create the mess.

Rush Limbaugh is a total nut! He's a money machine who makes his bucks off of spin!

You are certainly entitled to your opinion,but millions disagree with you.

His money does not concern me unless he stole it. As far as I know he didn't so more power to him.

I don't waste my time obsessing over money that others have or earn.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Rush Limbaugh is a total nut! He's a money machine who makes his bucks off of spin!

His money does not concern me unless he stole it.

Spin are lies....That's also theft....