Can we pursue capitalism____

[Dr. Shane]

Adam and Eve allowed Satan to become this world's leader by the principle seen in 2 Peter 2:19

"for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved."

Now that really looks like one is grasping at straws. If Satan being able to enslave man makes the world belong to him, than God being able to free man takes the world away from Satan. That is really reading more into the passage than is there.

[Dr. Shane]

Public roads are not socialist.

This is a post-Lincoln view. Prior to Abraham Lincoln, using tax dollars to build roads was a very controversial subject. Many Libertarians today still believe that all roads should be built by private companies and managed as toll roads much like private railroads were built.

[Dr. Shane]

Now that this thread is in this section members are going to need to tone the rhetoric down and use some common courtesy or the thread will be locked.

I suggest reading "Please Read: Tips For This Section"

[Robert]

There are not that many that cannot afford insurance.

[Robert]

I see socialism as people wanting others to care for them...

And I see "Laissez-faire Capitalism" as Lucifer's invention! It creates two classes: Rich and poor.....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No Shane...way off! Very few actually worship Satan.

When we sin we are worshiping Satan. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All have worshiped Satan.

Including you...because you still sin...you are never living above sin....There's still selfishness in your life...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Adam and Eve allowed Satan to become this world's leader by the principle seen in 2 Peter 2:19

"for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved."

Now that really looks like one is grasping at straws. If Satan being able to enslave man makes the world belong to him, than God being able to free man takes the world away from Satan. That is really reading more into the passage than is there.

You are free because of your position "in Christ", but in yourself you are not fully free of sin until Christ makes a new you.....So for now you have ties to Lucifer....His principle is seen in you, unless you are sinless in nature and performance....It's grace that saves a wretched sinner like yourself....Same for me....This world is under the control of the evil one. If you can't see that then there's no hope...

[lazarus]

To suggest that government alone was responsible for the financial crisis is to ignore the corrupt relationship that exits between government and the private sector. Government acted at the behest of the private sector in many instances.

During the housing boom, the subprime industry succeeded at more than just writing mortgages. It also shot down efforts by some states to curtail risky lending to borrowers with spotty credit.

Ameriquest Mortgage Co., until recently one of the nation's largest subprime lenders, was at the center of those battles. Working with a husband-and-wife team of Washington lobbyists, it handed out more than $20 million in political donations and played a big role in persuading legislators in New Jersey and Georgia to relax tough new laws. Those victories, in turn, helped blunt efforts by other states to crack down on reckless lending, critics of the industry contend.

THE SUBPRIME LOBBY

• The Threat: Subprime lenders worried about a wave of restrictive new laws from state legislatures.

• The Reaction: In New Jersey and Georgia, lenders lobbied and made political donations, helping to defeat legislation.

• The Result: Changes that might have protected homeowners who are now in foreclosure were rolled back.

Home loans made by Ameriquest and other subprime lenders are defaulting now in large numbers, roiling global credit markets and sparking debate about whether regulators and lawmakers should have anticipated the mess and taken action. A close look at Ameriquest's lobbying and political donations shows how the subprime industry maneuvered to defeat legislation that might have contained some of the damage.

The Federal Reserve is a government entity but privately owned! Interesting!

http://www.albionmonitor.com/0902a/copyright/wallstderegulation.html

PS) WASHINGTON -- A new report says that Wall Street has only itself to blame for the misguided deregulation that led to the current deepening financial crisis.

Issued March 4 by Essential Information and the Consumer Education Foundation, the report documents billions of dollars spent by the financial sector on what would eventually be their own downfall.

The 231-page report, "Sold Out: How Wall Street and Washington Betrayed America," shows that the financial sector invested more than $5 billion on purchasing political influence in Washington over the past decade, with as many as 3,000 lobbyists winning deregulation and other policy decisions that led directly to the current financial collapse.

"The report details, step-by-step, how Washington systematically sold out to Wall Street," said Harvey Rosenfield, president of the California-based non-profit organization Consumer Education Foundation.

"Depression-era programs that would have prevented the financial meltdown that began last year were dismantled, and the warnings of those who foresaw disaster were drowned in an ocean of political money," he said. "Americans were betrayed, and we are paying a high price -- trillions of dollars -- for that betrayal."

BREAKING NEWS

3 MAY 0000 ET

...Headlines Sun May 3 Updated 12:00 AM ET...

- 13 -

FRONT PAGE

According to the report, government regulators, Congress and the executive branch have, on a bipartisan basis, spent the past three decades steadily eroding the regulatory system that restrained the financial sector from acting on its own worst tendencies.

From 1998-2008, Wall Street investment firms, commercial banks, hedge funds, real estate companies and insurance conglomerates made political contributions totalling $1.725 billion and spent another $3.4 billion on lobbyists -- a financial juggernaut aimed at undercutting federal regulation.

"Congress and the Executive Branch responded to the legal bribes from the financial sector, rolling back common-sense standards, barring honest regulators from issuing rules to address emerging problems and trashing enforcement efforts," said Robert Weissman of Essential Information and the lead author of the report.

"The progressive erosion of regulatory restraining walls led to a flood of bad loans, and a tsunami of bad bets based on those bad loans," he said. "Now, there is wreckage across the financial landscape."

The report documents a dozen distinct deregulatory moves that, in concert, led to the financial meltdown.

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: there buster

Taxation does not help the masses.

Funny, everyday I go to work I see folks riding the social highway....Maybe they should pave their own roads....That way they could say - Mine, mine, all mine! I paid for it you can't use it!

And when you get sick and you've just paid in $2000, but get $200,000 operation...socialism pays for that....How? Folks paid in and when someone needed help you got it paid for....Can you say socialism? I can and do....

Spot on.

Those who complain about socialism either don't understand that they benefit from it every day or listen to too much Limbaugh.

I had a conversation with someone, during Thanksgiving, who was decrying all that "socialism" in Europe.

All that "big government control" he said.

"Like what", I said.

"Well, everything is controlled by the central government, all that socialism", he said.

"Give me an example", I said.

"well you can't own land, in the UK can you?", he said.

Too much conservative talk radio turns your brain into mashed potato!

[bonnie]

Quote:

And I see "Laissez-faire Capitalism" as Lucifer's invention! It creates two classes: Rich and poor.....

We have a very large segment of the population that is middle class,did you forget them.

Don't forget the rich pay more in taxes,contribute to charity far more,and emply man,many more than the poor.Best we keep them around for awhile yet

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

There are not that many that cannot afford insurance.

Really? Wow, I didn't know you were so smart....You seem to know everything....

Listen up poor folks...you ain't poor...Bonnie says so....

Quote:

Yes, I think it is socialism to take my money and give it to you.

Then stop paying taxes!!!!

I really have no desire to land in jail for non-payment of taxes.

Your sarcasm is cute but isn't really honest. I did not say or imply what you are attributing to me,

I can read the data and when the democrats and republicans give me the same data I assume it to be true.

Robert,you are the one that knows all. Who is selfish,when they are making to much etc.

This statement is another one of your fabrications,poor folks...you ain't poor.

Being poor is no excuse for taking money from someone else and using it fo your own needs,There is a name for that

As for the poor no one said we did not have poor people. Been there and done that for way to long.

I would like to see the proof of your claim concerning the elderly dying of starvation as a result of no SS prior to that.

It would be nice if you were to actually respond to what was said rather than wild exaggeration.

[Guest]

Amen

[Robert]

Being poor is no excuse for taking money from someone else and using it for your own needs....

Unless you're being robbed, the poor don't rob you....The US Government, in the form of taxes, takes from the masses in order to assist the poor with food, shelter, etc.....That's socialism....

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Being poor is no excuse for taking money from someone else and using it for your own needs....

Unless you're being robbed, the poor don't rob you....The US Government, in the form of taxes, takes from the masses in order to assist the poor with food, shelter, etc.....That's socialism....

Yes they do.Those unable to care for themselves mentally or physically must be cared for.

The able bodied and mentally competent have no business making a career out of welfare,standing with their hand out when they could do far more to help themselves.

I would feed anyone that was hungry> If they are still in the same spot 2 weeks down the road I probably would still feed them.

The third time I would probably want to know why they haven't moved from that spot in a attempt to help themselves. My energies would shift rather quickly to those unable to improve their lot in life.

The taking off my tax dollar to support career welfare recipients is theft,both by the government and the individual

[Robert]

Here's the bottom line: Taxes = socialism. If not, then tell me how high your taxes need to go before it becomes socialism. 40%...60%...90%....?

The US Government takes taxes from you and pays a host of things....They spend the largest amount on the Military, but nevertheless much is spend on helping folks. That's socialism....Capitalism doesn't do that....

[Robert]

Last year, total government revenue was $4,776 billion dollars out of a GDP of $13,743 billion, or 35% of GDP. Over 1 dollar out of every 3 that this whole country produced went to the government.

Here's the thing...the Republicans constantly accuse Obama of Socialism....It's spin....Why don't they just say they want to pay less taxes or have less Socialism?

[bonnie]

Here's the bottom line: Taxes = socialism. If not, then tell me how high your taxes need to go before it becomes socialism. 40%...60%...90%....?

The US Government takes taxes from you and pays a host of things....They spend the largest amount on the Military, but nevertheless much is spend on helping folks. That's socialism....Capitalism doesn't do that....

There is a limited function of government. You can claim all taxes are socialism but it is not always.

More and more money is being confiscated for giveaway to those that do not work or even try.

That is socialism. Taking my money that I use to pay for my own insurance and use it to provide insurance for you is theft,both on the part of the government and you. Threatening a jail sentence unless I purchase what the government dictates goes a bit past "gentle socialism.

More is spent on "administration" of our tax dollar than aiding those in true need. In the late 70's and early 80's my husband I and were licensed foster parents. At that time only 28 cents out of every welfare dollar actually went to aiding those in need. The rest went to administration.

Capitalism does take care of much of that. Without capitalism all charities would be in a lot more hurt than there are.

Socialism that takes so much away from the intended recipients is just plain theft on a "legal" scale

Those awful republicans or conservatives are larger contributors than the liberal group.In fact liberal's that love the socialist mindset so are wealthier than those greedy conservatives.

[Robert]

....You can claim all taxes are socialism but it is not always.

Okay...with this let's agree....We can compromise....Not all taxes are socialism, but yet a good percentage is socialism....

Maybe we can agree on this: The government needs to be much more responsible with the money they get from us....After all it's not their money....

Rob

[bonnie]

Quote:

Last year, total government revenue was $4,776 billion dollars out of a GDP of $13,743 billion, or 35% of GDP. Over 1 dollar out of every 3 that this whole country produced went to the government.

So?? If and when it was ever used wisely they would find they would not need so much.

Quote:

Here's the thing...the Republicans constantly accuse Obama of Socialism....It's spin....Why don't they just say they want to pay less taxes or have less Socialism?

Obama is the one that has made that issue very obvious. Every mentor,associate,friend,spiritual mentor has at the very least a socialist ideology.Some went far beyond that to communism. His previous associations and current ones show pretty clear where his mind set is.

Obama made it very clear he was about redistribution of wealth.That is socialism

You must not have been listening or you would not be asking such a question.......Why don't they just say they want to pay less taxes or have less Socialism?

Both have been said it repeatedly over and over.

There is a segment that wants socialism,someone to take care of them. Envious of those that have more fuels a lot of greed with those that resent those that have more than they.

Anyone that makes a career out of handouts and living off others and is never required to go beyond that is unlikely to change

Welfare is big business. Very lucrative for some and job security for others

[bonnie]

Until Obama and the administration in Mn accepted the stimulus we had a pretty good welfare system.

Welfare recipients that were capable could collect welfare for no more than five years and then they were removed from the welfare roles.

Not perfect but a start till Obama didn't think that was fair.As part of the stimulus we are back to welfare for life of those that are nothing but parasites.

Bet you can't guess why the "lower income" votes democrat?

[Guest]

I bet I can....

[bonnie]

I bet I can....

I did get a chuckle out of Jessie when he was governor.To bad he couldn't always act like an adult.

There had been a protest on the capital steps. It was felt that the requirement to work was against the civil rights of the welfare queens.

That and wanting accessible daycare(free) for mothers that were students. One made the mistake of asking Jessie what he was going to do to help them as governor with the problem of education.

Jessie said,don't look at me,I didn't make you pregnant,how about asking the daddy to help you.

[Guest]

I think you're right about the adult part. Didn't he say all religous people are weak minded?

[bonnie]

I think you're right about the adult part. Didn't he say all religous people are weak minded?

Yes he did.That didn't go over very well. He was like a belligerent child.He didn't like what was said he would take his toys and go home.

[Guest]

That's the way I remember it too.