The General Conference Inquisition

[Guest]

Yep

[Robert]

But yes Robert, if we are stubbornly calling darkness "light", then we are in trouble.

________

Stewart.

Okay, let's bring this out into the open. You say you have light, let's see:

How can God legally answer the claims of His law and yet forgive sinners and take them to heaven? Let's see if you understand the gospel based on Paul or if you are basing your views on old, EGW statements!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The Bible says such would be liars:

Romans 3:23

1 John 1:8

1 Cor 13:5 [/quote'][color:blue]

Well, I suppose that makes Christ a liar who told the paralytic at Bethesda something that was impossible to you, "See, you are well! SIN NO MORE, that nothing worse may happen to you."

No, it just proves that you don't understand....When Christ is addressing individuals He is dealing with certain sins that have caused destruction in their lives. In this man's case perhaps he was an alcoholic....Again, Christ doesn't load us down with perfectionism...rather it's folks like you who do that while you yourself are failing at it....Typical!

[LifeHiscost]

One thought expressed in this thread I most vehemently disagree to its' validity in speaking Truth.

Quote:

Truth changes

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the...truth,..."John 14:6 KJV

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."Hebrews 13:8 NKJV

"And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which also ye did receive, in which also ye have stood,

through which also ye are being saved, in what words I proclaimed good news to you, if ye hold fast, except ye did believe in vain,

for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings... " 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 YLT

"And that in the good ground: These are they, who in an upright and good heart, having heard the word, do retain [it], and bear fruit in continuance"Luke 8:15 YLT brackets theirs LHC

Blessings!

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Stewart (SDA)

But yes Robert, if we are stubbornly calling darkness "light", then we are in trouble.

________

Stewart.

Okay, let's bring this out into the open. You say you have light, let's see:

How can God legally answer the claims of His law and yet forgive sinners and take them to heaven? Let's see if you understand the gospel based on Paul or if you are basing your views on old, EGW statements!

Becareful; Too much of what we think we are reading Paul is actually ideas from Luther, Augustine and the church synogogue split of 135 AD that we have been reading into Paul for so many centuries that we don't realize that we are reading Paul wearing the glasses of Luther, Augustine and 135 AD. Let's not confuse where Mrs. White may dissagree with Augustine as to a place where we think she may be dissagreeing with Paul.

[Gerr]

Quote:

No, it just proves that you don't understand....

And you do?

Quote:

When Christ is addressing individuals He is dealing with certain sins that have caused destruction in their lives. In this man's case perhaps he was an alcoholic....

If Christ has the power to help me overcome with the one sin that is causing destruction in my life, any reason why He can't help me with two, or three, or 100?

Quote:

Again, Christ doesn't load us down with perfectionism...

On the contrary, it was Christ himself who said, "Be perfect....." Mt 5:48

Quote:

rather it's folks like you who do that while you yourself are failing at it....Typical!

Would you be so gracious as to provide ONE post of mine where I have done as you said?

[Twilight]

One thought expressed in this thread I most vehemently disagree to its' validity in speaking Truth.

Quote:

Truth changes

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the...truth,..."John 14:6 KJV

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."Hebrews 13:8 NKJV

"And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which also ye did receive, in which also ye have stood,

through which also ye are being saved, in what words I proclaimed good news to you, if ye hold fast, except ye did believe in vain,

for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings... " 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 YLT

"And that in the good ground: These are they, who in an upright and good heart, having heard the word, do retain [it], and bear fruit in continuance"Luke 8:15 YLT brackets theirs LHC

Blessings!

Amen.

[Woody]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves.

So why do we spend so much time arguing about EGW?

Focus on the Bible is what she said.

Bible first, last and always with The Holy Spirit guidance!!

Adios.....

Cool Brother. Cool. Amen and Amen.

TU TU TU TU

[skyblue888]

Oh yes, of course, it's so "cool" when you can read the Bible and make it say whatever you want, interpret it any way you wish and why not? your interpretation is just as valid as any one else's! but if the Lord, who is the Author of the Bible, sheds light on His word, makes comments upon His own Word, then we better pay attention. The Testimonies were sent not to replace the Bible but to help us understand the Bible.

"The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture. Many will read with eagerness the messages reproving wrong, that they may learn what they may do to be saved... Light will dawn upon the understanding, and the Spirit will make an impression on minds, as Bible truth is clearly and simply presented in the messages that since 1846 God has been sending His people. These messages are to find their place in hearts, and transformations will take place." Letter 73,1903; 1 S.M.42.

What do the testimonies present? Bible truth, clearly and simply presented to God's professed people. The key is to compare statement with statement as one statement explains another, as Scripture is explained by Scripture.

These messages are needed. Otherwise the Lord would not have sent them. The Testimonies also present the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare that not one in one hundred understands for himself.

"There is not one in one hundred who understands for himself the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare." 1 S.M.360.

sky

* if we would follow the counsel found in this statement there would be no need to argue about Ellen White. It is not Ellen White we are to receive, believe, and act upon but the messages that are found in the Testimonies.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

If you take the counsel to heart, you might find that you have a lot to unlearn and learn as well.

[Woody]

Oh yes, of course, it's so "cool" when you can read the Bible and make it say whatever you want, interpret it any way you wish and why not? your interpretation is just as valid as any one else's! but if the Lord, who is the Author of the Bible, sheds light on His word, makes comments upon His own Word, then we better pay attention. The Testimonies were sent not to replace the Bible but to help us understand the Bible.

"The Testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as Scripture is explained by Scripture. Many will read with eagerness the messages reproving wrong, that they may learn what they may do to be saved... Light will dawn upon the understanding, and the Spirit will make an impression on minds, as Bible truth is clearly and simply presented in the messages that since 1846 God has been sending His people. These messages are to find their place in hearts, and transformations will take place." Letter 73,1903; 1 S.M.42.

What do the testimonies present? Bible truth, clearly and simply presented to God's professed people.

These messages are needed. Otherwise the Lord would not have sent them. The Testimonies also present the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare that not one in one hundred understands for himself.

"There is not one in one hundred who understands for himself the Bible truth on this subject that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare." 1 S.M.360.

sky

Your attitude speaks for itself.

[Woody]

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

“A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, ‘We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God.’ But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God's word for truth. ‘Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.’ Some have asked me if I thought there was any more light for the people of God. Our minds have become so narrow that we do not seem to understand that the Lord has a mighty work to do for us. Increasing light is to shine upon us; for ‘the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.’ --Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. CW 34, 35

THank you Rob . Very good thoughts from our prophet and very applicable.

[skyblue888]

What is the hope of accepting any new light from the Lord if we do not even accept what He has already revealed to us?

sky

[Woody]

What is the hope of accepting any new light from the Lord if we do not even accept what He has already revealed to us?

sky

I suspect it just might not get through. But we can hope.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Okay, let's bring this out into the open. You say you have light, let's see:

How can God legally answer the claims of His law and yet forgive sinners and take them to heaven? Let's see if you understand the gospel based on Paul or if you are basing your views on old, EGW statements! [/quote']

Becareful; Too much of what we think we are reading Paul is actually ideas from Luther, Augustine and the church synogogue split of 135 AD that we have been reading into Paul for so many centuries that we don't realize that we are reading Paul wearing the glasses of Luther, Augustine and 135 AD. Let's not confuse where Mrs. White may dissagree with Augustine as to a place where we think she may be dissagreeing with Paul.

You can't answer....

[Guest]

Quote:

The Testimonies were sent not to replace the Bible but to help us understand the Bible.

Wrong, if we need theme to understand the Bible , why did EGW tell us to study the Bible for ourselves, why did she say if we had been doing that she would not have been needed?

Testimonies were sent to turn us back to the Bible. It is the Holy Spirit that helps our understanding. Many people down through time have been led by The Holy Spirit to write down their thoughts and understanding, including EGW. But we can have the same experience if we choose to be lead by the same.

Bible, first, last and always!

That's true, but the fact is we did need her messages from God, otherwise God wouldn't have sent them. And no we cannot all have the experience of a prophet. But we can all be led by the Holy Spirit.

[LifeHiscost]

THank you Rob . Very good thoughts from our prophet and very applicable.

I'm confused. Is that referring to Rob? teehe

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Quote:

The Testimonies were sent not to replace the Bible but to help us understand the Bible.

Wrong, if we need theme to understand the Bible , why did EGW tell us to study the Bible for ourselves, why did she say if we had been doing that she would not have been needed?

Testimonies were sent to turn us back to the Bible. It is the Holy Spirit that helps our understanding. Many people down through time have been led by The Holy Spirit to write down their thoughts and understanding, including EGW. But we can have the same experience if we choose to be lead by the same.

Bible, first, last and always!

That's true, but the fact is we did need her messages from God, otherwise God wouldn't have sent them. And no we cannot all have the experience of a prophet. But we can all be led by the Holy Spirit.

Exactly; The problem is that we have not studied out what Mrs. White says the visions did and did not do for her and tend to use her in ways she told us not to use her and we edit her to fit our ideas and use her to put teeth in our argument, instead of becoming students to see what she saw her ministry as, what she saw as important and what is applications or filler between points that she saw as important.

I would want to be careful about what I'd mean by helping us understand the Bible. In a lot of ways she does. As I learn about archaeology and Biblical studies, she helps me to see what is important in the information. But on the other hand too often we want to use her to answer questions of exogesus, such as turning to her writings to answer questions such as "What is the meaning of the daily" which is the type of question she'd defer to theologians and our responsibility to study the Bible. She would teach us about setting up schools, medical institutions, how to work a city, and the issues of the Great Controversy. But if we were to have two meetings, one looking at what she says about the meaning of the daily or other questions about exogesus for one meeting, and the other being studying how she teaches us how to work the city, I have a sneeking suspicion that most of us would want to go to listen to "what is the meaning of the daily" type of presentations, even though she says that her writings are not to answer those questions. In the 1920s, in the uproar of the 1923 general conference, Elder Wilcox began calling her an inspired commentary on the Bible. I have a sneeking suspicion if he said that when she was a live, that he would have gotten quite a sharp letter from her. Yet most of us have this attitude when we use her to understand the Bible better.

But on the other hand, there are those who say "Since she was to point us back to the Bible if we go to the Bible we don't need her." But yet there is so much in the field of Biblical study to sort through. She gives us wonderful guidelines on what should catch our eye. And as we read the Bible (and sadly Mrs. White as well) we tend to read then through the glasses of tradition. As I've said often, it's been pointed out that too often when we read the words of Paul, we read into the words of Paul the thoughts of Luther, Augustine, and theologians in the church - synogogue split of 135 AD. Because of Mrs. White I could tell that most of the studies of Paul, and Desmond Ford's presentations of Paul had something missing. I knew I was very stupid when it came to Paul, and that most of what I'd read or hear to study Paul was just about as ignorant as I was, but I was smart enought to be quiet and discuss other parts of the Bible where I did know at least a little bit. Then in the 1990s when I got Jim Fleming's "Acts; New discoveries of the early church" I could finally say "This is it!!!" and in the references in the notebook I was able to discover a whole world of Pauline studies that I had not known about, but of theologians who were actually starting to understand Paul (as well as point out some things that we are only begining to learn about Paul but have barely cracked the surface-- for example; we take a quote of Paul as proof texts. However there appears to be places where Paul is setting up an argument that he is dissagreeing with, and we read the words as "oh this is what Paul is teaching" No he is not teaching this he is teaching against these-- Now I have to admit, while I have heard about these studies, I have not yet come accross any examples so I still read Paul in the old way) But because of Mrs. White I'm able to see that this whole new world of Pauline studies are on the right track and that Elder Ford was at the cutting edge of studies and light for his day, but that his day was more steeped in tradition than the actual thoughts of Paul.

If it was not for Mrs. White I would not have realized my ignorance when it came to Paul, and the ignorance of the books I've read about Paul, have had the wisdom to keep my mouth shut when it came to Paul and to become excited when I learned about this new world of Pauline studies.

[Robert]

You go with Ellen as the measuring stick of truth (which is heresy) and I'll go with the Bible....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

THank you Rob . Very good thoughts from our prophet and very applicable.

I'm confused. Is that referring to Rob? teehe

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

"We"? She means her and the church! In other words she had "only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us [future tense]." EGW died having limited light; to make her books the end all, be all of truth is to remain in the twilight of darkness....She had only a glimmer of light....Look up the definition of "glimmer"!

[BobRyan]

You go with Ellen as the measuring stick of truth (which is heresy) and I'll go with the Bible....

I go with the Bible where God tells us that his prophets are to be accepted and not simply thrown under the bus whenever it pleases you as if God is pleased by such antics.

The "believe the Bible or believe God's prophets" false canard so many people imagine as a "good thing" is much easier to see through than they think.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Stewart (SDA)

But yes Robert, if we are stubbornly calling darkness "light", then we are in trouble.

________

Stewart.

Okay, let's bring this out into the open. You say you have light, let's see:

How can God legally answer the claims of His law and yet forgive sinners and take them to heaven? Let's see if you understand the gospel based on Paul or if you are basing your views on old, EGW statements!

I would be curious to know if Robert knows the answer to that question.

In Romans 3 God is both "JUST" and "the JUSTIFIER" of those who diligently seek Him.

In Romans 2 God argues that it is "NOT the hearers of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JustiFIED".

In 1Cor 7:19 God says "What MATTERS is keeping the commandments of God".

In Gal 6 "God is not mocked whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap"/

In 1John 2 "the one who SAYS He knows Christ should also WALK as Christ walked".

God's JUSTICE demands the death of the criminal. For the born-again saved Christian that happens in TWO forms. The first is "atoning sacrifice" -- Christ's atoning sacrifice "He made him to KNEW no sin to be sin in our behalf" 2Cor 5 -- and "he took the stroke for us -- to whom the stroke was DUE" Is 53.

The second mechanism is "death" and "new Creation" where we "die daily" where those in Christ are "a new Creation".

God's justice also demands that he uphold the penalty AND the standard of the Law of God. The perfect standard is met by the life of Christ alone. The full penalty is paid by every sinner who refuses salvation (see Matt 18 and Rev 20) and also by Christ (1John 2:2) offering to every sinner - pardon and release.

The determination of WHO will be covered by the perfect righteousness of the life of Christ and who will stand in their own righteousness to suffer the 2nd death - is made in that Daniel 7 judgment scene now taking place in heaven where Christ NOW stands as our High Priest (see Heb 7-9).

These are the mechanisms for justice and mercy -

But God ALSO chooses to allow His justice and mercy to be reviewed, tested, investigated and demonstrated as in the case of Job 1 and 2. So when he claims in Romans 2:10-13 that He is NOT partial - not arbitrary - not biased toward one person vs another -- he then submits his own actions to review by his own creation (Romans 3:2-6).

The open - full disclosure model for investigative judgment seen in Daniel 7 results in "judgment passed in favor of the saints". It incorporates the view and review of myriads and myriads in the court room. It resolves questions by presenting compelling evidence of a changed life or a mere "false claim to change". Christ said that good trees will be known by their good fruit in Matt 7. The rules used in that court of law are clearly spelled out in Romans 2 -- both for "the jews and also for the gentiles".

===

So "yes" I am incredibly curious to see if Robert is in fact the master of the Bible description of the Justice and mercy of God that he seems to be claiming.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

quoting Ralph Larson

The Inquisitorial Procedure

The procedure consists of three parts: an “investigation” (see above), some meetings, and the issuance of an ultimatum. According to the ultimatum, the accused historic Adventist leaders are being given twelve months in which to “repent” and bow to the authority of the Inquisitors or suffer the consequences. There is no hint that there will be any fair trial in which the accused might be given an opportunity to defend themselves. They must simply accept the judgment of the Inquisitors as infallible—all of which reminds us of the Catholic Inquisition in Spain.

A word about the “meetings” referred to above. They may be represented as “fair hearings,” but they were nothing of the kind. They were only occasions in which the historic Adventist leaders had to spend time responding to barrages of false accusations. Their concerns about apostasy in the church were never considered. Nothing remotely resembling a fair and factual hearing has ever occurred.

Well that sounds pretty much horrible!

There is a youtube video showing Bill Johnson responding to questions about a supposed "inquisition" back in the 1980's regarding ministers who sided with Des Ford. Johnsson was being grilled by Walter Martin and by John Ankerberg as to whether Pastors were being expelled for siding with Des Ford instead of siding with Ellen White.

Johnsson stated that the ONLY question put to the pastors at the time they were defrocked was simply "can you confirm that your views are in harmony with the 27 fundamental beliefs and that you affirm teaching those beliefs from the pulpit". Those who said they could not teach the 27 fundamental beliefs - were relieved of service.

Seems like a good rule to me.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

The court room scenario is just one among several models that God uses

to help us understand the plan of salvation.

The Covenants

The Sanctuary system & Atonement

Redemption

Reconciliation

New Birth

Grafting

Marriage

Each of these answers some aspect of the plan of salvation. IMHO, we

lose something when we focus on one and forget the others. I am not

saying you are doing that, just pointing out our human foibles to focus

on something.

[BobRyan]

quoting Ralph Larson

Dust in the Air

Several references have been made in this article to the false doctrines of Calvinism that have invaded our church. How has this been done? By skullduggery.

When the book Questions on Doctrine was published in 1957 its secret authors put in it a statement of the false Calvinistic doctrine that Christ came to this earth in the human nature of the unfallen Adam, rather than in fallen human nature, as believed and taught by Seventh-day Adventists.