I die daily... Have we misinterpreted this?

December 7, 2009

Paul stated that he died "daily".

Now Christians interpret this to mean a "death" of the old man that happens every day.

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But I am puzzled.

If one is in Christ, then what happens when they sleep?

Does the "old man" resurrect?

I see no scripture for that.

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But I do see scripture for this:

2000 years ago, my saviour took my "old man" and nailed him to the cross.

2000 years ago, my saviour was raised up in newness of life and I was raised with Him.

Now, if I died 2000 years ago (the old man), and was raised as the "new man", why do I need to keep dying "daily"?

I do not.

I am dead in Christ, and I live in Christ.

Just as Paul stated:

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

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This idea that I die daily is a spiritual application is error.

By the gift of faith Christ has given me because of the merits of His blood, I am dead in Christ.

When Paul talks about dying daily, the context is physical suffering.

The context is the trials he went through. Not a spiritual dying.

There is no mention of that in that section of scripture at all...

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Why does this matter?

It matters because we keep trying to "die to self" and be alive to God, when we are already dead by faith in Christ and alive to God by faith.

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Example:

If I am in Paris, and I wake up in Paris, I am in Paris.

If someone calls me and tells me I am really in the USA, I know I am in Paris and they are lying.

This is the enemies trick.

He keeps telling us we are not in Christ, when we are...

We just need to exercise the faith of Christ, which is a gift, and receive that promise.

--------------

When Jesus said "abide in me and I in you", this is what He was talking about.

We abide in the promise that we are dead and born again.

We abide in the promise that He is dwelling in us.

--------------

These are the two arms of the victorious Christian walk, when we have both then we can walk the Christian life.

So the question is:

"Are YOU dead?"

If not, why not?

Your thoughts?

Mark :-)

December 7, 2009

Luke 9: 23 is talking about our dying daily. We have to nail ourselves to the cross every day-- dying to self. Dying to self= dying to sin. Compare Romans 6: 1-12 and 8: 9-13.

December 7, 2009

Luke 9: 23 is talking about our dying daily. We have to nail ourselves to the cross every day-- dying to self. Dying to self= dying to sin. Compare Romans 6: 1-12 and 8: 9-13.

Thank you for that text John.

Luk 9:23 ¶ And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

But is not Jesus here talking about our continual choice to follow Him and carry the cross of that choice?

I do not think Jesus here is talking about being "crucified" afresh.

Why would we need that?

We only needed to be crucified once.

-----------------

Consider Romans 6 verse 6:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

We note there that there is a "knowing".

This "knowing" that we were crucified in the past, once for all, is our foundation.

Romans 6:11 comes after this.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:11 comes out of the experience of Romans 6:6.

Not the other way around.

So we ARE dead in Christ.

Then our part is to continually "reckon", or account ourselves in that experience.

---------------

In other words, I WAS crucified in Christ, I am dead.

Not, I am BEING crucified in Christ, I am alive and dead continually.

No!

It is error my friend.

It is something we have adopted as a people and it inhibits us from overcoming sin.

Why?

Because you are dead already.

You already have the victory.

But you have to stand in that victory.

---------------

The current understanding amongst Adventists, is that we have to keep trying to get "back into" Christ.

That is the wrong way around.

We are "in Christ", and satan is trying to get us out.

--------------

Paul states it emphatically here:

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

-------------

Romans 6:6 is also correctly translated in the past tense, which the KJV does not bring across.

I have included some examples below.

Please consider this carefully.

It is old light that we have lost and it is part of the truth that has enabled me to walk with Christ in victory.

God bless Brother. :-)

Mark :-)

-------------

knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

NLT - Rom 6:6 - Our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin.

NIV - Rom 6:6 - For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,* that we should no longer be slaves to sin–

Footnote:

* Or be rendered powerless

ESV - Rom 6:6 - We know that our old self* was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

RSV - Rom 6:6 - We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

ASV - Rom 6:6 - knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;

YNG - Rom 6:6 - this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;

DBY - Rom 6:6 - knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin.

December 7, 2009

Luke 9: 23 is talking about our dying daily. We have to nail ourselves to the cross every day-- dying to self. Dying to self= dying to sin. Compare Romans 6: 1-12 and 8: 9-13.

Further:

Dying to self= dying to sin.

Self is dead.

So we are dead to sin.

Sin still comes calling.

But the person who used to answer the door is not there anymore, he is dead.

But the new man is there, and he knows to call Jesus to answer the door.

Mark :-)

December 7, 2009

We have turned the "Created Gospel" into the "Evolutionary Gospel".

God does not "change" our old man into the new man.

He "exchanges" our old man with the new man.

He takes the old man and kills him.

Then He gives us the new man.

-----------------

The first part of being born again, is to accept that we have in fact died...

-----------------

Now that we are "dead", we continue to "reckon" ourselves dead, through Faith in Christ.

We also reckon ourselves to be alive onto God.

Sin has no one to control.

The sin is still in our "members", it is still there in the body.

But now the man who served it is gone.

Mark :-)

December 7, 2009

We have to nail ourselves to the cross every day-- dying to self.

There's the problem I have with typical SDA theology...."We" this and "we" that....That's the flesh wanting credit!

You can't nail yourself to the cross either figuratively or in reality.

Paul's quote is a metaphor that points to a truth that literally happened 2000 years ago:

"When One died, all died"

"our old self was crucified with him"

"you also died to the law through the body of Christ"

If Paul was actually dead to sin he wouldn't have said the following:

"I am (present tense) the chief of sinners"

"Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, ...let us live up to what we have already attained [as to victory over certain sins]."

Again, you guys are on a perfectionist trip because you don't have assurance!

December 7, 2009

He takes the old man and kills him.

That's heresy....That's a false teaching. Even EGW would get on you and tell you that you are teaching "holy flesh".

Our human nature remains 100% self-seeking until we die. It doesn't die....It remains fully functional as long as we are living. Paul calls it "the law of sin". The only way to experience power over it is as we allow "the law of the Spirit" to defeat "the law of sin" (self-love & self-seeking), but our nature never improves...it never gets better and it never dies until glorification.

December 7, 2009

As long as we are in this body, we have "self" to contend with. That's why it needs to be crucified daily, a moment by moment choice.

December 7, 2009

As long as we are in this body, we have "self" to contend with. That's why it needs to be crucified daily, a moment by moment choice.

And who crucifies (figuratively speaking) "the law of sin"? Christ! The choice we have is allow Christ to defeat temptation when it comes....It's a moment by moment surrender, which living in this crazy world is rather hard to do at times....So we mostly agree here....Wow, huh?

In fact everyday I ask God to take my nature under His control, and everyday I slip up, but I would much worse without God....

December 7, 2009

"Are your supplications ascending to God in living faith? Are you emptying your hearts of self, preparatory to receiving the latter rain?" E.G. White, 4 B.C.1178.

"Unless your heart is emptied of self, you will be unready for he coming of Christ." M.R. Vol.1, p.367.

"We can receive of Heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self and consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. To all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure." 1 M.R. 367.

"No outward observances can take the place of simple faith and entire renunciation of self. But no man can empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work for us." Christ's Object Lessons, p.159.

"God calls upon men and women to empty their hearts of self, then the Holy Spirit can find unobstructed entrance. Stop trying to do the work yourself." M.R. Vol.1, p.367.

To me these statements make it clear what the meaning of the Scriptures quoted from the book of Romans is that self must be subdued daily by Christ through the Holy Spirit.

That through the merits of Christ the Lord has made it possible for us to consent for Him to accomplish the work of emptying our hearts of the corroding power of selfishness on a daily basis that we may be prepared to receive the Holy Spirit in latter rain power and be prepared for His coming.

sky

December 7, 2009

Originally Posted By: John317

We have to nail ourselves to the cross every day-- dying to self.

There's the problem I have with typical SDA theology...."We" this and "we" that....That's the flesh wanting credit!

You can't nail yourself to the cross either figuratively or in reality.

Paul's quote is a metaphor that points to a truth that literally happened 2000 years ago:

"When One died, all died"

"our old self was crucified with him"

"you also died to the law through the body of Christ"

If Paul was actually dead to sin he wouldn't have said the following:

"I am (present tense) the chief of sinners"

"Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, ...let us live up to what we have already attained [as to victory over certain sins]."

Again, you guys are on a perfectionist trip because you don't have assurance!

I have total assurance Robert.

We are made dead to sin in Christ.

Do you agree with that?

December 7, 2009

Originally Posted By: Twilight

He takes the old man and kills him.

That's heresy....That's a false teaching. Even EGW would get on you and tell you that you are teaching "holy flesh".

Our human nature remains 100% self-seeking until we die. It doesn't die....It remains fully functional as long as we are living. Paul calls it "the law of sin". The only way to experience power over it is as we allow "the law of the Spirit" to defeat "the law of sin" (self-love & self-seeking), but our nature never improves...it never gets better and it never dies until glorification.

Paul would disagree Robert...

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

And no one has said anything about "Holy Flesh"...

Mark :-)

December 7, 2009

As long as we are in this body, we have "self" to contend with. That's why it needs to be crucified daily, a moment by moment choice.

Self was crucified once Gerry.

You do not need to crucify it again.

You need to accept it has been crucified and that you are in Christ already.

Does the flesh resurrect in the night?

What happens if I do not sleep in the night, is the flesh still dead?

We are not evolutionists Gerry, we are Creationists.

God breathes life into us and we are born again.

Then we are dead to sin.

Sin still comes, but we are dead to that sin.

(Paul uses flesh and the old man and EGW uses self to express the same thing).

God bless,

Mark :-)

December 7, 2009

"Are your supplications ascending to God in living faith? Are you emptying your hearts of self, preparatory to receiving the latter rain?" E.G. White, 4 B.C.1178.

"Unless your heart is emptied of self, you will be unready for he coming of Christ." M.R. Vol.1, p.367.

"We can receive of Heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self and consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. To all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure." 1 M.R. 367.

"No outward observances can take the place of simple faith and entire renunciation of self. But no man can empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work for us." Christ's Object Lessons, p.159.

"God calls upon men and women to empty their hearts of self, then the Holy Spirit can find unobstructed entrance. Stop trying to do the work yourself." M.R. Vol.1, p.367.

To me these statements make it clear what the meaning of the Scriptures quoted from the book of Romans is that self must be subdued daily by Christ through the Holy Spirit.

That through the merits of Christ the Lord has made it possible for us to consent for Him to accomplish the work of emptying our hearts of the corroding power of selfishness on a daily basis that we may be prepared to receive the Holy Spirit in latter rain power and be prepared for His coming.

sky

the meaning of the Scriptures quoted from the book of Romans is that self must be subdued daily by Christ through the Holy Spirit.

Look at it another way Sky.

The flesh (self) "has" been crucified in Christ.

As we appropriate the merits of Christ, we live in this reality.

As long as we remain in Christ, under the blood, our flesh is dead.

Sin still works in our members and comes calling.

But the part that responded is dead in Christ.

Not only are we dead, but the new man is alive in Christ also, through the precious merits.

So victory is ours.

As long as we remain in Christ and He in us.

And the reason all this is possible?

The merits of His shed blood.

We have victory my friend.

We just need to start having faith in this, instead of this teaching of having to "die daily", which becomes a works if we are not careful.

Which also does not work by the way.

I have tried this "theology" and it did not give me victory over sin.

This truth however does and has. :-)

But all through the merits of Christ, of which I am eternally grateful that you were used to share with me...

Mark :-)

December 7, 2009

Quote:

"Are YOU dead?"

I dunno. I may not be dead yet ... but since I'm going to Hell ... It must be that I will be dead soon.

At least I would say that I'm as good as dead.

December 7, 2009

Quote:

"I am (present tense) the chief of sinners"

Thanks Rob. Such truth. I appreciate your entire post. I too find that I am the "chief of sinners". What a shame that there are those who think themselves 'worthy' of eternal life through their supposed 'good' behaviour.

December 7, 2009

Originally Posted By: John317

We have to nail ourselves to the cross every day-- dying to self.

There's the problem I have with typical SDA theology...."We" this and "we" that....That's the flesh wanting credit!

You can't nail yourself to the cross either figuratively or in reality.

Nailing ourselves to the cross every day refers to the decision that each individual believer must make every day and even moment by moment. It is dying to self so the Holy Spirit and Christ can reign in the life. It says, "Not I but Christ." It says, "I must decrease and Christ must increase." It says, "I have been crucified with Christ: it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." Gal 2: 20.

God's prophet wrote:

Quote:

John and Judas are representatives of those who profess to be Christ's followers. Both these disciples had the same opportunities to study and follow the divine Pattern. Both were closely associated with Jesus and were privileged to listen to His teaching. Each possessed serious defects of character; and each had access to the divine grace that transforms character. But while one in humility was learning of Jesus, the other revealed that he was not a doer of the word, but a hearer only. One [John], daily dying to self and overcoming sin, was sanctified through the truth; the other [Judas], resisting the transforming power of grace and indulging selfish desires, was brought into bondage to Satan. The Acts of the Apostles (1911), page 558, paragraph 1

The sin which is indulged to the greatest extent, and which separates us from God and produces so many contagious spiritual disorders, is selfishness. There can be no returning to the Lord except by self-denial. Of ourselves we can do nothing; but, through God strengthening us, we can live to do good to others, and in this way shun the evil of selfishness. We need not go to heathen lands to manifest our desire to devote all to God in a useful, unselfish life. We should do this in the home circle, in the church, among those with whom we associate and with whom we do business. Right in the common walks of life is where self is to be denied and kept in subordination. Paul could say: "I die daily." It is the daily dying to self in the little transactions of life that makes us overcomers. We should forget self in the desire to do good to others. With many there is a decided lack of love for others. Instead of faithfully performing their duty, they seek rather their own pleasure. Counsels for the Church (1991), page 80, paragraph 2

December 7, 2009

Originally Posted By: Robert

There's the problem I have with typical SDA theology...."We" this and "we" that....That's the flesh wanting credit!

You can't nail yourself to the cross either figuratively or in reality.

Nailing ourselves to the cross every day refers to the decision that each individual believer must make every day and even moment by moment. It is dying to self so the Holy Spirit and Christ can reign in the life. It says' date=' "Not I but Christ." It says, "I must decrease and Christ must increase." It says, "I have been crucified with Christ: it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." Gal 2: 20.

God's prophet wrote:

Quote:

John and Judas are representatives of those who profess to be Christ's followers. Both these disciples had the same opportunities to study and follow the divine Pattern. Both were closely associated with Jesus and were privileged to listen to His teaching. Each possessed serious defects of character; and each had access to the divine grace that transforms character. But while one in humility was learning of Jesus, the other revealed that he was not a doer of the word, but a hearer only. One [John'], daily dying to self and overcoming sin, was sanctified through the truth; the other [Judas], resisting the transforming power of grace and indulging selfish desires, was brought into bondage to Satan. The Acts of the Apostles (1911), page 558, paragraph 1

The sin which is indulged to the greatest extent, and which separates us from God and produces so many contagious spiritual disorders, is selfishness. There can be no returning to the Lord except by self-denial. Of ourselves we can do nothing; but, through God strengthening us, we can live to do good to others, and in this way shun the evil of selfishness. We need not go to heathen lands to manifest our desire to devote all to God in a useful, unselfish life. We should do this in the home circle, in the church, among those with whom we associate and with whom we do business. Right in the common walks of life is where self is to be denied and kept in subordination. Paul could say: "I die daily." It is the daily dying to self in the little transactions of life that makes us overcomers. We should forget self in the desire to do good to others. With many there is a decided lack of love for others. Instead of faithfully performing their duty, they seek rather their own pleasure. Counsels for the Church (1991), page 80, paragraph 2

Is Ellen white espousing the concept of Romans 6:6 here or 6:11 John?

I believe Romans 6:11.

When we abide in Christ, we are "in Him".

It is the enemies aim to bring us out of that.

If we could by simple faith reach out and lay hold of this blessed truth, our feet would be on the path to victory.

Mark :-)

December 7, 2009

This is what this means:

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Mark :-)

December 7, 2009

Quote:

"I am (present tense) the chief of sinners"

Thanks Rob. Such truth. I appreciate your entire post. I too find that I am the "chief of sinners". What a shame that there are those who think themselves 'worthy' of eternal life through their supposed 'good' behaviour.

/

Does that mean Paul was sinning daily more than any body else?

December 7, 2009

It don't matter Gerry. The Law demands total perfection. Just one sin will submit you to the curse of the Law. DEATH.

December 7, 2009

1chief \ˈchēf\ adj

14c

1 : accorded highest rank or office 〈chief librarian〉

2 : of greatest importance or influence 〈the chief reasons〉

———————

2chief adv

14c archaic : chiefly

———————

3chief n

[ME, fr. AF chief, chef head, chief, fr. L caput head — more at head] 15c

1 : the upper part of a heraldic field

2 : the head of a body of persons or an organization : leader 〈chief of police〉

3 : the principal or most valuable part 〈would never rest till she had read the chief of the letter to him —Jane Austen〉

Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

December 7, 2009

Paul wrote he was the chief of sinners because he deeply felt that Christ died for his sins. He didn't say it because he felt that he, at the time he wrote that, was at that time currently sinning worse than anyone else was.

December 8, 2009

Further for John317 and Gerry:

Romans 6:6 is our justification or born again experience.

Romans 6:11 is our sanctification experience.

Once we have accepted our Justification, we can experience Sanctification.

Sanctification deals with unknown sin being revealed to us.

Justification has already dealt with all known sin.

-----------------

So I am "in Christ".

Sin comes.

It is either:

A) A temptation that has already been dealt with and I am aware of it.

A temptation that is from "self" that has not been previously been dealt with, because we were not aware of it.

When it is "B", it is confessed and that is also placed on the Cross and then becomes "A".

"A" is easy to deal with, because it has already been dealt with in Christ.

This is how we overcome moment by moment.

In Christ.

God bless,

Mark :-)

December 8, 2009

Quote:

Sanctification deals with unknown sin being revealed to us.

Justification has already dealt with all known sin.

Could you tell me more along these lines?

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I die daily... Have we misinterpreted this?

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