I die daily... Have we misinterpreted this?

[Twilight]

Quote:

Sanctification deals with unknown sin being revealed to us.

Justification has already dealt with all known sin.

Could you tell me more along these lines?

What is your question?

[Woody]

So ... are you saying that Justification ends and Sanctification begins?

[Twilight]

So ... are you saying that Justification ends and Sanctification begins?

How can justification end?

Without justification, sanctification is meaningless.

And the other way around too...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

So ... are you saying that Justification ends and Sanctification begins?

How can justification end?

Without justification, sanctification is meaningless.

And the other way around too...

You already have these "in Christ"....In Him you stand justified, sanctified, and glorified....

[Dr. Rich]

It's too bad we don't have any words from Jesus to know what 'dying daily' means. Hmmmm?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

How can justification end?

Without justification' date=' sanctification is meaningless.

And the other way around too... [/quote']

You already have these "in Christ"....In Him you stand justified, sanctified, and glorified....

Yes, as long as we are "in Christ".

Those that choose to willfully sin are no longer "in Christ" and must seek repentance from God to gain that back.

If we willfully sin, we are not "In Christ", but under the power of sin and Satan.

Mark

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Yes, as long as we are "in Christ".

All men are in Christ....The whole human race was taken into Christ....All men were saved at the cross, but many will reject their need of the gospel and come under the curse of the law....

[Robert]

Those that choose to willfully sin are no longer "in Christ" and must seek repentance from God to gain that back.

No! Legalism!!! This is rubbish!!!! This is what is termed yo-yo salvation...You are in...you are out...In/out...in/out!

If you really come out of Christ through unbelief you are once lost eternally lost because you have said goodbye to Christ...You have apostasized...you have hardened your heart so that the Spirit can no longer talk with you....(see Heb chapter 6)

Your teaching is of the highest heresy....

[Robert]

All men are in Christ....The whole human race was taken into Christ....All men were saved at the cross, but many will reject their need of the gospel and come under the curse of the law....

Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation [all men are born condemned because they receive Adam's fallen life]; even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's, in our humanity] the free gift came unto all men to justification of life

"All men" - the whole human race, has been justified by Christ's doing & dying....Justification by faith is receiving, by faith, that reality because while you stand saved "in Christ" you must receive it by faith....

[SivartM]

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.

While this is an interesting discussion, I don't think that the specific meaning of "dying daily" is important enough for us all to run around calling each other heretics.

[Steve Billiter]

All men were not saved at the cross, this is New Theology. It is the same error that A. F. Ballenger was de-frocked for. This is what the unbiblical offshoot the 1888 message Study Committee and Jack Sequeria teach.

The free gift was provided at the cross, but we must meet the conditions.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

We must first accept Christ as our savior, confess our sins to Him, and repent, we must be born again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Isa 55:6 Seek you the LORD while he may be found, call you on him while he is near:

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

when we accept Christ and are born again, then we are justified through His shed blood. As we obey Him in everything, we continue the process of sanctification which should lead to overcoming all sin, and Holiness.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

[Steve Billiter]

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

[Steve Billiter]

Paul's metaphor, "Die daily" is simply an ongoing sanctification process. We must die to self and sin daily. Is it not suggested we start the day off with prayer and devotions?

What would happen if we don't? Then it becomes easier to slip back into the world. What if we quit going to church and quit reading our Bible? It gets worse.

The spiritual life is progressive; as we study and commit, we should become more like Jesus as time goes forward.

Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shines more and more to the perfect day.

On another occasion I spoke in reference to genuine sanctification, which is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God… Paul's sanctification was a constant conflict with self. Said he: "I die daily." His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. (4T 299)

In the first chapter of Second Peter is presented the progressive work in the Christian life. The whole chapter is a lesson of deep importance. If man, in acquiring the Christian graces, works on the plan of addition, God has pledged Himself to work in his behalf upon the plan of multiplication. "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord." The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (MS 57, 1900). {6BC 1074.9}

Bible Sanctification

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Guest]

All men were not saved at the cross, this is New Theology. It is the same error that A. F. Ballenger was de-frocked for. This is what the unbiblical offshoot the 1888 message Study Committee and Jack Sequeria teach.

The free gift was provided at the cross, but we must meet the conditions.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

We must first accept Christ as our savior, confess our sins to Him, and repent, we must be born again.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Isa 55:6 Seek you the LORD while he may be found, call you on him while he is near:

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

when we accept Christ and are born again, then we are justified through His shed blood. As we obey Him in everything, we continue the process of sanctification which should lead to overcoming all sin, and Holiness.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Amen!!

[SivartM]

All men were not saved at the cross, this is New Theology. It is the same error that A. F. Ballenger was de-frocked for. This is what the unbiblical offshoot the 1888 message Study Committee and Jack Sequeria teach.

The free gift was provided at the cross, but we must meet the conditions.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

We must first accept Christ as our savior, confess our sins to Him, and repent, we must be born again.

I'm pretty sure that this is a misunderstanding of the teachings of Sequeria and the 1888 MSC. They beleive in confession and repentance... but they believe that Jesus died to save all people. Not everyone will be saved, though, because they reject Him.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: 2 Timothy 2:14

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.

While this is an interesting discussion, I don't think that the specific meaning of "dying daily" is important enough for us all to run around calling each other heretics.

Don't say that. You will take away Robert's whole reason for living.

[Robert]

All men were not saved at the cross, this is New Theology.

No Sir, Christ saved the human race in Himself....If not, then you can contribute to your salvation.

[Robert]

The free gift was provided at the cross, but we must meet the conditions.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Paul stated that he died "daily".

Now Christians interpret this to mean a "death" of the old man that happens every day.

--------------

But I am puzzled.

If one is in Christ, then what happens when they sleep?

Does the "old man" resurrect?

I see no scripture for that.

--------------

But I do see scripture for this:

2000 years ago, my saviour took my "old man" and nailed him to the cross.

2000 years ago, my saviour was raised up in newness of life and I was raised with Him.

Now, if I died 2000 years ago (the old man), and was raised as the "new man", why do I need to keep dying "daily"?

I do not.

I am dead in Christ, and I live in Christ.

Just as Paul stated:

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

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This idea that I die daily is a spiritual application is error.

By the gift of faith Christ has given me because of the merits of His blood, I am dead in Christ.

When Paul talks about dying daily, the context is physical suffering.

The context is the trials he went through. Not a spiritual dying.

There is no mention of that in that section of scripture at all...

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Why does this matter?

It matters because we keep trying to "die to self" and be alive to God, when we are already dead by faith in Christ and alive to God by faith.

--------------

Example:

If I am in Paris, and I wake up in Paris, I am in Paris.

If someone calls me and tells me I am really in the USA, I know I am in Paris and they are lying.

This is the enemies trick.

He keeps telling us we are not in Christ, when we are...

We just need to exercise the faith of Christ, which is a gift, and receive that promise.

--------------

When Jesus said "abide in me and I in you", this is what He was talking about.

We abide in the promise that we are dead and born again.

We abide in the promise that He is dwelling in us.

--------------

These are the two arms of the victorious Christian walk, when we have both then we can walk the Christian life.

So the question is:

"Are YOU dead?"

If not, why not?

Your thoughts?

Mark :-)

Hi Mark, I have thought as you have concerning the "I die daily" statement that Paul made. I used to say; "he's not talking about dying daily, he's talking about the risks that are involved in his ministry. In other words, because he is preaching the Gospel he has faced daily dangers that could result in his death. Therefore he is saying I am ready to die at any time. However, in order to come to that point he must die daily to self or he could never live that life.

So now I understand what is meant when people say I die daily; even though they are probably just repeating something that have heard and don't know the context, it still is true, we must die daily to self.

This is one of the ingredients to overcoming temptation.

Norman

[Steve Billiter]

The whole human race is not saved, most will be lost because they never accepted Christ.

Mat 7:13 Enter you in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it.

We contribute by meeting the conditions, but salvation is a free gift. Don't be misled.

Here is the gospel in brief:

Saved Through Faith in Jesus

Have we come to the foot of the cross to obtain the free gift of everlasting life? Have we met the conditions our Lord has given us to follow? No other subject is so compelling; no other topic is so important, or so relevant!

“Then let none say that there are no conditions to salvation. There are decided conditions, and everyone is put to the strenuous task of diligently inquiring and searching for the truth from God's word. At the peril of our souls we must know the prescribed conditions given by Him who has given His own life to save us from ruin. We will certainly be lost if we float along with the current of the world, receiving the sayings of men. By our selfish love of ease and by our indolence we endanger our souls and the souls of others. We are to seek earnestly to know what saith the Lord”. {13MR 22.1}

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

We must meet His conditions to be born again. repentance is the theme throughout the Bible from the time Adam sacrificed animals, that pointed to Jesus who fulfilled the types and shadows, and then He came preaching repentance.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

So as we are convicted by the Holy Spirit of the need to accept Christ as our Savior:

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

We can choose to accept Him or reject Him. When we accept Christ, we confess our sins and fully turn away from them, (repentance) This could be a several years processes Jesus taught in John 3, no definite time is given.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

When we complete these conditions for salvation, we are then converted, born again:

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Our whole attitude changes! We then hunger and thirst for righteousness, we begin to have the blessings of the Beatitudes. Here is Ellen White on the beatitudes:

Desire of Ages (page 299)

Without combating their ideas of the kingdom of God, He told them the conditions of entrance therein, leaving them to draw their own conclusions as to its nature. The truths He taught are no less important to us than to the multitude that followed Him. We no less than they need to learn the foundation principles of the kingdom of God. {DA 299.3}

Christ's first words to the people on the mount were words of blessing. Happy are they, He said, who recognize their spiritual poverty, and feel their need of redemption. The gospel is to be preached to the poor. Not to the spiritually proud, those who claim to be rich and in need of nothing, is it revealed, but to those who are humble and contrite. One fountain only has been opened for sin, a fountain for the poor in spirit. {DA 299.4}

So the beatitudes are connected to salvation, we cannot fully have these blessings until we fulfill the conditions for salvation and continue in the process of sanctification.

Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness." The sense of unworthiness will lead the heart to hunger and thirst for righteousness, and this desire will not be disappointed. Those who make room in their hearts for Jesus will realize His love. All who long to bear the likeness of the character of God shall be satisfied. The Holy Spirit never leaves unassisted the soul who is looking unto Jesus. He takes of the things of Christ and shows them unto him. If the eye is kept fixed on Christ, the work of the Spirit ceases not until the soul is conformed to His image. The pure element of love will expand the soul, giving it a capacity for higher attainments, for increased knowledge of heavenly things, so that it will not rest short of the fullness. "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness; for they shall be filled." {DA 302.1}

We cannot earn our salvation, it is a free gift.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. As we are converted, we love the things we used to hate, and hate the things we used to love. We should desire to keep the commandments out of our love for the Savior, and because it is the right thing to do. In addition, we are forming our characters for heaven and there will be no sin there.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The power of the Holy Spirit, and our own choices, will allow us to gain the victory over all sin:

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14. {GC 425.1}

We are preparing to meet Him who, escorted by a retinue of holy angels, is to appear in the clouds of heaven to give the faithful and the just the finishing touch of immortality. When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. {2T 355.1}

Be not deceived. God is not mocked. Nothing but holiness will prepare you for heaven. It is sincere, experimental piety alone that can give you a pure, elevated character and enable you to enter into the presence of God, who dwelleth in light unapproachable. The heavenly character must be acquired on earth, or it can never be acquired at all. Then begin at once. Flatter not yourself that a time will come when you can make an earnest effort easier than now. Every day increases your distance from God. Prepare for eternity with such zeal as you have not yet manifested. Educate your mind to love the Bible, to love the prayer meeting, to love the hour of meditation, and, above all, the hour when the soul communes with God. Become heavenly-minded if you would unite with the heavenly choir in the mansions above. 276 {CCh 187.1}

Men were taught that it is possible to obey the law of God; that even while living in the midst of the sinful and corrupt, they were able, by the grace of God, to resist temptation, and become pure and holy. They saw in his example the blessedness of such a life; and his translation was an evidence of the truth of his prophecy concerning the hereafter, with its award of joy and glory and immortal life to the obedient, and of condemnation, woe, and death to the transgressor. {PP 88.2}

By faith Enoch "was translated that he should not see death; . . . for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Hebrews 11:5. In the midst of a world by its iniquity doomed to destruction, Enoch lived a life of such close communion with God that he was not permitted to fall under the power of death. The godly character of this prophet represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be "redeemed from the earth" (Revelation 14:3) at the time of Christ's second advent.(PP. p. 88,89)

So when we receive the final seal of God, as probation closes, Jesus comes to rescue the saints with all of the holy angels!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We all entered the cloud together, and were seven days ascending to the sea of glass, when Jesus brought the crowns, and with His own right hand placed them on our heads. He gave us harps of gold and palms of victory. Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright. Some crowns appeared heavy with stars, while others had but few. All were perfectly satisfied with their crowns. And they were all clothed with a glorious white mantle from their shoulders to their feet. Angels were all about us as we marched over the sea of glass to the gate of the city.

Jesus raised His mighty, glorious arm, laid hold of the pearly gate, swung it back on its glittering hinges, and said to us, "You have washed your robes in My blood, stood stiffly for My truth, enter in." We all marched in and felt that we had a perfect right in the city. {EW 16.2}

Maranatha! Even so, Lord Jesus, come.

(Steve Billiter)

[Steve Billiter]

You cannot say we don't need faith. Without faith there is nothing. I also never said faith is the saviour.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[Dr. Rich]

Steve, you wrote a lot but I see a major problem with all of this. You said one must have faith and I would agree up to a point. Faith allows one to believe in a lie without feeling guilty for not searching for and following the truth. Yes, we all start off with faith, but with knowledge and understanding the less faith one needs. No one will need faith in heaven. Jesus did not need faith in His father for He knew Him.

Please give me your understanding of having faith in Jesus? I have read all of EGW's stuff and it appears that she also vacillates over this whole issue. I believe it is not enough to just have faith or believe in Jesus. Even Satan does this. I agree that it is by keeping and obeying all of the words and commands of God is what is meant by having faith and having a belief in Jesus.

You also wrote: "We must meet His conditions to be born again. repentance is the theme throughout the Bible from the time Adam sacrificed animals, that pointed to Jesus who fulfilled the types and shadows, and then He came preaching repentance." Can you please show me where there is any evidence that Adam sacrificed animals? this is new information to me.

[John317]

I believe it is not enough to just have faith or believe in Jesus. Even Satan does this. I agree that it is by keeping and obeying all of the words and commands of God is what is meant by having faith and having a belief in Jesus.

There's a huge difference between a mere intellectual belief in something-- or an acknowledgement of certain "facts"-- and saving faith.

What is "saving faith"? The Holy Scriptures are able to make us wise for salvation through faith. Saving faith is faith in Christ which leads one to genuine repentance for sin and to obedience. Obviously Satan does not have any such belief.

Many people acknowledge God's existence, but they do not believe that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. See Heb. 11: 6.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes John, you get the point. Thanks.

[John317]

Can you please show me where there is any evidence that Adam sacrificed animals? this is new information to me.

What is the reason for your refusal to believe that Adam sacrificed animals? As someone who was educated in the SDA church, you surely understand the evidence. And therefore this cannot be "new information" to you. Sadly you have rejected the pearls of evidence you used to know and believe, but now trample them instead under your feet.

Gen. 3: 15 tells us that God explained to Adam the promise of the coming Messiah. Gen. 3: 21 says that God made clothes for Adam and Eve from the skins of animals. Gen. 4: 2-5 tells us that Cain and Abel knew about animal sacrifices and that Abel sacrificed lambs from his flock. Noah offered burnt offerings to the Lord. Noah had communicated directly with Methuselah, who in turn had communicated directly with Adam and Enoch. The Bible doesn't record how Abel and Noah learned about the sacrificial system, but on the basis of the above information, it is reasonable to conclude that they learned it from God who promised them the One prefigured in the sacrifices, Jesus the Messiah.

Let everyone be persuaded in his own mind.