I die daily... Have we misinterpreted this?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Paul stated that he died "daily".

Now Christians interpret this to mean a "death" of the old man that happens every day.

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But I am puzzled.

If one is in Christ, then what happens when they sleep?

Does the "old man" resurrect?

I see no scripture for that.

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But I do see scripture for this:

2000 years ago, my saviour took my "old man" and nailed him to the cross.

2000 years ago, my saviour was raised up in newness of life and I was raised with Him.

Now, if I died 2000 years ago (the old man), and was raised as the "new man", why do I need to keep dying "daily"?

I do not.

I am dead in Christ, and I live in Christ.

Just as Paul stated:

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

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This idea that I die daily is a spiritual application is error.

By the gift of faith Christ has given me because of the merits of His blood, I am dead in Christ.

When Paul talks about dying daily, the context is physical suffering.

The context is the trials he went through. Not a spiritual dying.

There is no mention of that in that section of scripture at all...

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Why does this matter?

It matters because we keep trying to "die to self" and be alive to God, when we are already dead by faith in Christ and alive to God by faith.

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Example:

If I am in Paris, and I wake up in Paris, I am in Paris.

If someone calls me and tells me I am really in the USA, I know I am in Paris and they are lying.

This is the enemies trick.

He keeps telling us we are not in Christ, when we are...

We just need to exercise the faith of Christ, which is a gift, and receive that promise.

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When Jesus said "abide in me and I in you", this is what He was talking about.

We abide in the promise that we are dead and born again.

We abide in the promise that He is dwelling in us.

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These are the two arms of the victorious Christian walk, when we have both then we can walk the Christian life.

So the question is:

"Are YOU dead?"

If not, why not?

Your thoughts?

Mark :-)

Hi Mark, I have thought as you have concerning the "I die daily" statement that Paul made. I used to say; "he's not talking about dying daily, he's talking about the risks that are involved in his ministry. In other words, because he is preaching the Gospel he has faced daily dangers that could result in his death. Therefore he is saying I am ready to die at any time. However, in order to come to that point he must die daily to self or he could never live that life.

So now I understand what is meant when people say I die daily; even though they are probably just repeating something that have heard and don't know the context, it still is true, we must die daily to self.

This is one of the ingredients to overcoming temptation.

Norman

I now realise my original post could have been clearer.

Yes we die daily, from a position of victory, but dying daily is not dying to the old man that has already been dealt with, it is dying dailing to temptation and the continous revelation of the "hidden" old man.

But the main point I am trying to bring across here, is that we start from the position of victory, in Christ.

Not from the position of defeat, in the old man. <- This is what many believe, as I used to.

Does that make sense?

Mark

[Guest]

Yes it makes sense.

[wayfinder]

Oh the lengths we will go to.

[Guest]

Like the lengths you went to on the MM thread?

[wayfinder]

I just said that, because I went to the same lengths until I saw the light. It makes for a good discussion though.

[phkrause]

Some very good points John. How else did Abel and Cain know about sacrificing? It had to be from there father. The Bible doesn't have to mention every single detail for us to be able to figure some things out for ourselves.

pk

[wayfinder]

The "sacrifices" that Cain and Able were offering, were just that, offerings to God in thanksgiving to Him for blessing that "fruits" of their labors.

Genesis 6:1 Now the man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain, and she said, "I have gotten a manchild with the help of the LORD." 2 Again, she gave birth to his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of flocks, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 So it came about in the course of time that Cain brought an offering to the LORD of the fruit of the ground. 4 Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering ; 5 but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell.

Notice that we are told that Able was a keeper of flocks and Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Able brought the firstlings (plural) of his flock and their fat portions (plural). Cain is said to have brought an offering, obviously it was not the firstfruits or best of his harvest or it would have been discribed as such.

4:6,7 (Septuagint) And the Lord God said to Cain, Why art thou become very sorrowful and why is thy countenance fallen? Hast thou not sinned if thou hast brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it? be still, to thee shall be his submission, and thou shalt rule over him.

I like the Septuagint's description here because it shows that God said to Cain "Have you not sinned if you brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it. In other words, you brought it as you should, but did not offer the firstfruits and best of your harvest.

We see this same command given to the children of Israel in the tithe and firstfruits of their harvest.

Exodus 23:19 NAS

"You shall bring the choice first fruits of your soil into the house of the LORD your God. " You are not to boil a young goat in the milk of its mother

Exodus 34:19 NAS

"The first offspring from every womb belongs to Me, and all your male livestock, the first offspring from cattle and sheep.

[karl]

This idea that I die daily is a spiritual application is error.

(snip)

Why does this matter?

It matters because we keep trying to "die to self" and be alive to God, when we are already dead by faith in Christ and alive to God by faith.

[quote}But the main point I am trying to bring across here, is that we start from the position of victory, in Christ.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

This idea that I die daily is a spiritual application is error.

(snip)

Why does this matter?

It matters because we keep trying to "die to self" and be alive to God, when we are already dead by faith in Christ and alive to God by faith.

[quote}But the main point I am trying to bring across here, is that we start from the position of victory, in Christ.

Mark

The sense I get from the Scripture on this, and the sense I get from EGW is that of denying self.

Now, if we believe that we already have the victory over self, how does that help us in the war against self?

We need to be careful - distrustful of self. The idea that she was in great shape and didn't need to be careful was what got the sinless mother of mankind in a lot of trouble and gave us a world of hurt.

I recommend that he that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

[karl]

[quote}But the main point I am trying to bring across here, is that we start from the position of victory, in Christ.

Mark

[Twilight]

[quote}But the main point I am trying to bring across here, is that we start from the position of victory, in Christ.

Mark

[karl]

Semantics, Mark

It is still a decision to "remain" dead to sin and self.

You are not absolved of participation in the process of sanctification.

Sanctification is simply minute by minute justification. They are, essentially, the same thing.

[Twilight]

Semantics, Mark

It is still a decision to "remain" dead to sin and self.

You are not absolved of participation in the process of sanctification.

Sanctification is simply minute by minute justification. They are, essentially, the same thing.

It is not semantics Karl. :-)

It is an important distinction.

1. You are in Christ <- this is truth.

2. You stay there by His Grace.

3. Satan comes calling to pull you out of being in Christ.

So we start from the position of victory because of what Jesus did.

He put us to death and raised us in newness of life.

Our wills are used to "stay in" the promises of God.

But we often act like (and teach) that we are in the "flesh" and we need to die to that to get into Christ, that we need to exercise our "wills" to keep getting "into" Christ.

This is a most subtle but deadly error...

Your thoughts?

Mark :-)

[karl]

Oooh, Mark

I just realized you might be turning the Bible on its head. Are you implying that everyone starts out saved and only those who insist upon being lost are lost?

Just want to make sure I'm understanding what you are meaning above.

I believe we are lost until we respond to the wooing of Christ by submitting to his grace and power and letting Him convert us.

I believe the default status for humanity is "condemned already." John 3:18

[Twilight]

Oooh, Mark

I just realized you might be turning the Bible on its head. Are you implying that everyone starts out saved and only those who insist upon being lost are lost?

Just want to make sure I'm understanding what you are meaning above.

I believe we are lost until we respond to the wooing of Christ by submitting to his grace and power and letting Him convert us.

I believe the default status for humanity is "condemned already." John 3:18

No, I am talking about the experience of those that have realised their great spiritual darkness and have applied to the merits of Christ for victory over sin...

When we accept the precious gift, we are placed in a position of "victory".

Not in a position of "defeat".

This is the starting point, which we as a people do not understand generally.

Mark :-)

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Oooh, Mark

I just realized you might be turning the Bible on its head. Are you implying that everyone starts out saved and only those who insist upon being lost are lost?

Just want to make sure I'm understanding what you are meaning above.

I believe we are lost until we respond to the wooing of Christ by submitting to his grace and power and letting Him convert us.

I believe the default status for humanity is "condemned already." John 3:18

No, I am talking about the experience of those that have realised their great spiritual darkness and have applied to the merits of Christ for victory over sin...

When we accept the precious gift, we are placed in a position of "victory".

Not in a position of "defeat".

This is the starting point, which we as a people do not understand generally.

Mark :-)

Yes, this I agree with.

Thanks.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

No, I am talking about the experience of those that have realised their great spiritual darkness and have applied to the merits of Christ for victory over sin...

When we accept the precious gift, we are placed in a position of "victory".

Not in a position of "defeat".

This is the starting point, which we as a people do not understand generally.

Mark :-) [/quote']

Yes, this I agree with.

Thanks.

You are welcome. :-)

Mark

[Steve Billiter]

Mark, from my studies, we also have a work to do in sanctification, which is a separate process than justification.Obviously the thief on the cross was justified by faith in Christ, he accepted Him as savior. However, he did not have a chance to enter the lifelong process of sanctification. This doesn't mean we have to work at sanctification and be a certain level of righteousnesses to have the assurance of salvation.At the moment of salvation, we have justification and assurance.

2Co 6:2 (For he said, I have heard you in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored you: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

However, I also believe willful persistent sin will separate of from God and salvation. here is the process of sanctification:

In the first chapter of Second Peter is presented the progressive work in the Christian life. The whole chapter is a lesson of deep importance. If man, in acquiring the Christian graces, works on the plan of addition, God has pledged Himself to work in his behalf upon the plan of multiplication. "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord." The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (MS 57, 1900). {6BC 1074.9}

Bible Sanctification

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is also tied in to the fruits of the Spirit:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

"Crucified the flesh" having the same meaning as "I die Daily."

[Twilight]

Mark, from my studies, we also have a work to do in sanctification, which is a separate process than justification.Obviously the thief on the cross was justified by faith in Christ, he accepted Him as savior. However, he did not have a chance to enter the lifelong process of sanctification. This doesn't mean we have to work at sanctification and be a certain level of righteousnesses to have the assurance of salvation.At the moment of salvation, we have justification and assurance.

2Co 6:2 (For he said, I have heard you in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succored you: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

However, I also believe willful persistent sin will separate of from God and salvation. here is the process of sanctification:

In the first chapter of Second Peter is presented the progressive work in the Christian life. The whole chapter is a lesson of deep importance. If man, in acquiring the Christian graces, works on the plan of addition, God has pledged Himself to work in his behalf upon the plan of multiplication. "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord." The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (MS 57, 1900). {6BC 1074.9}

Bible Sanctification

2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is also tied in to the fruits of the Spirit:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

"Crucified the flesh" having the same meaning as "I die Daily."

First things first, I agree with you on the willful sin aspect.

But I have to disagree on the point about "dying daily" being "crucifixion".

Why?

Because I was crucified in Christ once, 2000 years ago.

So then why would I "die daily", if my old man is already dead?

Does he come back to life in the night whilst I am sleeping?

And how does this then balance out with this emphatic statement?

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Mark :-)

[skyblue888]

These discussions on dying to self always bring up this statement to my mind:

"No outward observances can take the place of simple faith and entire rununciation of self. But no man can empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work. Then the language of the soul will be, Lord, take my heart; for I cannot give it. It is Thy property. Keep it pure, for I cannot keep it for Thee. Save me in spite of myself, my weak, unchristlike self,. Mold me, fashion me, and raise me into a pure and holy atmosphere where the rich currents of Thy love can flow through my soul." C.O.L.159.

I believe this is the daily prayer of one who is conscious of the weakness of self and who realizes that his only hope is in the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Saviour. (See G.C.471) To him the soul-cleansing blood is applied and Christ accomplishes the work of emptying his heart of the corroding power of selfishness and sin.

sky

[Twilight]

These discussions on dying to self always bring up this statement to my mind:

"No outward observances can take the place of simple faith and entire rununciation of self. But no man can empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work. Then the language of the soul will be, Lord, take my heart; for I cannot give it. It is Thy property. Keep it pure, for I cannot keep it for Thee. Save me in spite of myself, my weak, unchristlike self,. Mold me, fashion me, and raise me into a pure and holy atmosphere where the rich currents of Thy love can flow through my soul." C.O.L.159.

I believe this is the daily prayer of one who is conscious of the weakness of self and who realizes that his only hope is in the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Saviour. (See G.C.471) To him the soul-cleansing blood is applied and Christ accomplishes the work of emptying his heart of the corroding power of selfishness and sin.

sky

Agreed. :-)

[skyblue888]

Praise God Mark! Amen! :-)

Mark, did you also notice how in the statement it says that we cannot give our heart to God the reason being that we are not our own for Christ has purchased us with His own blood. There are so many people who come to God and say, Lord I give you my heart. How can we give something that is not ours? It is His property! And that is why the inspired prayer is, "Lord, take my heart for I cannot give it. It is Thy property." And not only can we not give it we cannot keep it pure. So "Lord, keep it pure for I cannot keep it for Thee."

All we can say to Him, once we have appropriated His merits by faith, is, "Lord, take it and keep it pure for Thee."

I love this.

sky

The Lord truly accomplishes everything. Our part which is also the gift of God is to exercise faith in the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour and He does the rest. "Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." F.W.27.

[Steve Billiter]

Mark, the Bible does not teach we die to self just one time at acceptance of Christ. When we are baptized, that represents our old man of sin as we go under, and then as we come up represents the new life in Christ. It is symbolic of our stated desire to follow Christ.

If there is not an ongoing process of dying to self and putting on Christ, then we will be overcome by sin.

I also don't mean it as as black and white as I say.If we abide in Christ 24/7 it also stands to reason that we crowd out self at the same time.But even when we do that, temptations will still come. By meeting temptation with "it is written," and making the choice not to sin, (hopefully) then we die to self then as well.

The parable of the True Vine illustrates it well:

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Joh 15:3 Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken to you.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches: He that stays in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing.

Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Wholly Sanctified: Body, Soul, and Spirit

The very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 {ML 248.1}

The sanctification set forth in the Sacred Scriptures has to do with the entire being--spirit, soul, and body. Here is the true idea of entire consecration. Paul prays that the church at Thessalonica may enjoy this great blessing. "The very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thessalonians 5:23.... {ML 248.2}

True sanctification is an entire conformity to the will of God. Rebellious thoughts and feelings are overcome, and the voice of Jesus awakens a new life, which pervades the entire being. Those who are truly sanctified will not set up their own opinion as a standard of right and wrong. They are not bigoted or self-righteous; but they are jealous of self, ever fearing, lest a promise being left them, they should come short of complying with the conditions upon which the promises are based.... {ML 248.3}

Bible sanctification does not consist in strong emotion. Here is where many are led into error. They make feelings their criterion. When they feel elated or happy, they claim that they are sanctified. Happy feelings or the absence of joy is no evidence that a person is or is not sanctified. There is no such thing as instantaneous sanctification. True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last. Those who are battling with daily temptations, over-coming their own sinful tendencies, and seeking for holiness of heart and life make no boastful claims of holiness. They are hungering and thirsting for righteousness. Sin appears to them exceedingly sinful.

* * * * * {ML 248.4}

Genuine sanctification ... is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God.

{ML 248.5}

I prefer to go with the Bible and the Lord's prophet instead of what man may say. :)

[Woody]

Quote:

Genuine sanctification ... is nothing less than a daily dying to self and daily conformity to the will of God.

{ML 248.5}

Guess I don't have it. For I do not die to self daily. I do not daily conform to the will of God.

I slip. I fall. I try. I fail. I invite ... for His delight. But, try as I might. I am a fright.

[Steve Billiter]

These discussions on dying to self always bring up this statement to my mind:

"No outward observances can take the place of simple faith and entire rununciation of self. But no man can empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work. Then the language of the soul will be, Lord, take my heart; for I cannot give it. It is Thy property. Keep it pure, for I cannot keep it for Thee. Save me in spite of myself, my weak, unchristlike self,. Mold me, fashion me, and raise me into a pure and holy atmosphere where the rich currents of Thy love can flow through my soul." C.O.L.159.

I believe this is the daily prayer of one who is conscious of the weakness of self and who realizes that his only hope is in the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Saviour. (See G.C.471) To him the soul-cleansing blood is applied and Christ accomplishes the work of emptying his heart of the corroding power of selfishness and sin.

sky

Sky, you're out of context here. Ellen White is speaking of OUTWARD RELIGION, NOT DYING TO SELF!It would help if you stop taking EGW out of context like you do with "merits." Here is the context you DID NOT post:

The prayer of the publican was heard because it showed dependence reaching forth to lay hold upon Omnipotence. Self to the publican appeared nothing but shame. Thus it must be seen by all who seek God. By faith--faith that renounces all self-trust--the needy suppliant is to lay hold upon infinite power. {COL 159.2}

No outward observances can take the place of simple faith and entire renunciation of self. But no man can empty himself of self. We can only consent for Christ to accomplish the work. Then the language of the soul will be, Lord, take my heart; for I cannot give it. It is Thy property. Keep it pure, for I cannot keep it for Thee. Save me in spite of myself, my weak, unchristlike self. Mold me, fashion me, raise me into a pure and holy atmosphere, where the rich current of Thy love can flow through my soul. {COL 159.3}

She's saying "take my heart" really meaning supply my want, increase my desire, help my unbelief, make up the lack.

I see you left out "entire renunciation of self."