Moderators John317 Posted December 17, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 17, 2009 ... All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God," 2 Cor 5:17-20 ESV On the one hand, Paul says God reconciled (past tense in English, aorist in Greek) us to himself through Christ, and then in the next breath he says, "be reconciled to God!" Why? Because the reconciliation at the Cross was a general amnesty that God declared. It was a finished and complete sacrifice. But only a potential boon in terms of salvation for each particular individual. If it were not so, why would he say, "be reconciled to God," if it was a completed/accomplished fact? Furthermore, what is the point of entrusting Paul or anyone the message of reconciliation if nothing more needs to be done since everyone was reconciled at the cross? Yes, this is so important for us to understand. Where in the Bible do we read that Paul and the other apostles told people, "You are already saved. Now you just need to realize it"? Or, "All your sins were forgiven at the cross and now you just need to accept that fact"? No, their message was "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE saved." Again, "He who believes in Him WILL receive remission of sins" (Acts 10: 43). "Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE saved." Romans 10: 13. "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you WILL BE saved." Rom. 10: 9. We really need to conform out thinking and preaching to the Bible pattern. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 17, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 17, 2009 What do you mean by saying you are not obligated to the law? Since the law is not a sentient being, this could not, in any case, be literally true. To obligated to the law can only mean, it seems to me, obligated to keep the law. So is this what you mean, that you are not obligated to keep the law? If so, this seems to me to be very prone to be misleading. Yes, that's true. I look forward very much to the answers. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I think the KJV captures the understanding that we, serving through the Spirit, are delivered from condemnation of the law because we do it with our hearts joyfully instead of legalistically. I would say that this is not "quite" right Karl. :-) When we are "under the law", we are trying to keep the law in our own strength. But when we are "under grace", God is working in us and keeping the law in us in His strength... As we co-operate and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, the will and work of God is carried out. We must come to the point where we realise that we cannot keep the law in any shape or form. But only Christ in us, can keep that Law and we have to follow Him as He leads and guides us. Do you see the distinction? Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: karl I think the KJV captures the understanding that we, serving through the Spirit, are delivered from condemnation of the law because we do it with our hearts joyfully instead of legalistically. I would say that this is not "quite" right Karl. :-) When we are "under the law", we are trying to keep the law in our own strength. But when we are "under grace", God is working in us and keeping the law in us in His strength... As we co-operate and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, the will and work of God is carried out. We must come to the point where we realise that we cannot keep the law in any shape or form. But only Christ in us, can keep that Law and we have to follow Him as He leads and guides us. Do you see the distinction? Mark :-) I see the distinction, but it sounds like you're leaving out half of the text. (The "work out your own salvation half.") I believe we are incapable, in our own strength, of doing anything God asks. But, I believe we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us, for it is God Who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. In our own strength we CAN keep the law in a shape or form, but it is a worlthless shape and form. The legalistic keeping of the law is so superficial and niggardly that it is has no transforming effect or may actually be harmful. Only the "yoked up with Christ" keeping of the law is truly beneficial to us or others. The cool thing about "Christ in you" is that He produces a change in our lives that is far more than the mere avoidance of transgressing the law. The fruits of the Spirit, peace that passes understanding, charity. None of these are even addressed in the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: karl The law provided only condemnation to those who did not keep it. It provided no Way to keep it. No transforming, indwelling Christ is announced in the law. Christ and the apostles did not annul the law. They magnified it. They RAISED the bar. Instead of prohibitions, they presented exhortations to a much higher calling and promised the grace to make it happen. Every thought is to come under the control of Christ. The requirements of grace far exceed the requirements of the law. Press on toward the mark, for it is God that worketh in you. He is able. Satan wants us to give up on God because all we see are defects in ourselves and in others. But we must live by faith, not by sight. Courage, brothers and sisters. Fear not. Faith, hope, charity. Thank you, karl. Excellent post. There is dynamite power in the blood!! The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all those who have genuine faith in Christ. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight I would say that this is not "quite" right Karl. :-) When we are "under the law", we are trying to keep the law in our own strength. But when we are "under grace", God is working in us and keeping the law in us in His strength... As we co-operate and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, the will and work of God is carried out. We must come to the point where we realise that we cannot keep the law in any shape or form. But only Christ in us, can keep that Law and we have to follow Him as He leads and guides us. Do you see the distinction? Mark :-) [/quote'] I see the distinction, but it sounds like you're leaving out half of the text. (The "work out your own salvation half.") I believe we are incapable, in our own strength, of doing anything God asks. But, I believe we can do all things through Christ which strengthens us, for it is God Who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. In our own strength we CAN keep the law in a shape or form, but it is a worlthless shape and form. The legalistic keeping of the law is so superficial and niggardly that it is has no transforming effect or may actually be harmful. Only the "yoked up with Christ" keeping of the law is truly beneficial to us or others. The cool thing about "Christ in you" is that He produces a change in our lives that is far more than the mere avoidance of transgressing the law. The fruits of the Spirit, peace that passes understanding, charity. None of these are even addressed in the law. The first error a Christian makes is often this: 1. I can keep the law. This is then shown to be false and that the strength of Christ is needed, but then the second error creaps in: 2. I cannot keep the law, but if Christ helps my "I", then my "I" can keep the law. But this is in fact error and the very evidence of this is that those that are claiming that their "I" can now keep the law, cannot in fact keep it. "I" can never keep the law, it is impossible. Finally after much effort and out of sheer desperation, the Christian crys out and asks: "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?" And they finally realise the truth: "It is God who works in me to will and to do of His good pleasure." And they cast themselves at Jesus feet and ask Him to do the very thing that they have been failing to do all of these years... So it is not: "God who gives my "I" strength to will and do of His good pleasure.", but that I am able to "do all things through the strenght of Christ in me.". When we think that "we" can be made capable of keeping Gods law, we are still in a very subtle form of legalism. We have to cast ourselves down at Jesus feet and accept His verdict of the Laodicean church: Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: We have to recognise our total abject spiritual poverty, until that happens, we will keep: "Proclaiming and Failing"... Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Yes, this is so important for us to understand. Where in the Bible do we read that Paul and the other apostles told people, "You are already saved. Now you just need to realize it"? Or, "All your sins were forgiven at the cross and now you just need to accept that fact"? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Quote: Originally Posted By: John317Yes, this is so important for us to understand. Where in the Bible do we read that Paul and the other apostles told people, "You are already saved. Now you just need to realize it"? Or, "All your sins were forgiven at the cross and now you just need to accept that fact"? I agree, John317 The default status for humanity is LOST. Unbelievers are condemned already because they believe not on He Whom God has sent. Let us work for the lost, gentlemen and ladies. Let us not lull ourselves to sleep with the delusion that they are already saved. "The whole heavenly universe are intensely interested in every penitent soul that comes to Jesus; and they are interested, too, in the impenitent--in those whom they hope to see saved by repentance and reformation." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: We have to recognise our total abject spiritual poverty, until that happens, we will keep: "Proclaiming and Failing"... So... where do people get off proclaiming they're being credited with all kinds of merits and proclaiming that people are saved when they are actually wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked? When you figure out how to totally absolve mankind of any participation in salvation without producing universalism or calvinism in the process, please post it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Quote: Originally Posted By: John317Yes, this is so important for us to understand. Where in the Bible do we read that Paul and the other apostles told people, "You are already saved. Now you just need to realize it"? Or, "All your sins were forgiven at the cross and now you just need to accept that fact"? I agree, John317 The default status for humanity is LOST. Unbelievers are condemned already because they believe not on He Whom God has sent. Let us work for the lost, gentlemen and ladies. Let us not lull ourselves to sleep with the delusion that they are already saved. "The whole heavenly universe are intensely interested in every penitent soul that comes to Jesus; and they are interested, too, in the impenitent--in those whom they hope to see saved by repentance and reformation." Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 When you figure out how to totally absolve mankind of any participation in salvation without producing Universalism or Calvinism in the process, please post it here. No one's suggesting this, are they? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: karl When you figure out how to totally absolve mankind of any participation in salvation without producing Universalism or Calvinism in the process, please post it here. No one's suggesting this, are they? Ok, since you agree you gotta do something, rather than a lot of guessing and posting back and forth, why don't you outline the level of involvement in salvation you are comfortable with. Save time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I've already posted on this. Several times I've quoted the following: Quote: How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175-176) This seems very clear to me. The love of God is revealed from the cross, and if the sinner does not resist the drawing of this love, he will repent, the Spirit through faith produces a new life in the soul, the law is written in the heart, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Christ. The above explains how one is saved. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I came to see that the pen of inspiration couldn't have stated it more clearly, what is our part: "Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." Faith and Works, 106. As we do this, urged on by the Holy Spirit, we have every right to claim all of God's promises and we have every assurance that the Holy Spirit is given to us and the Holy Spirit is the gift that brings all the other blessings in its train. So we must present our helpless case before God every single day pleading the merits of the blood of Christ that the soul-cleansing blood may be applied. How's that? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 As you're describing it, it seems rather like a mental exercise. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 It's called faith, even living faith. "That living faith is essential for our salvation that we should lay hold upon the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Saviour, on Christ, our righteousness." F.W.64. This statement is very simple and clear. It even says that we lay hold upon Christ our righteousness by laying right hold upon His merits, the merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. This faith requires mental exercise, of course. How else can we exercise faith? "Faith is the gift of God but the power to exercise it is ours." P.P.431. So faith, living faith, is the hand by which the soul lays right hold upon the remedy provided for sin, the all-sufficient merits of the crucified and risen Saviour. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Cross posting, since we're talking about the same thing: To me the DA passage is easier to understand. It says: 1. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. 2. His love is drawing us to Himself. 3. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance. 4. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. 5. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart. 6. We can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." This brings out some key points, including: a.The process starts with God, and God does the converting work, if permitted. b.God is drawing the sinner. c.The sinner must resist to be lost. So God is the initiator, and the "doer", in terms of conversion, and we are either willing participants, or resistant rebels. Some may think this sounds as if it's leaving out things we must do, but if the law is written in the heart, and our hearts are united to Christ's, so that it is our delight to do God's will, then we *will* do God's will, by faith. This is how I think of it, and it seems very simple to me. Speaking of appropriating the merits of Christ is less clear to me, but if it means this, then that's cool. Something I should have made clear, in the a., b., c., part, is that it's the love of God that leads the way. As Romans 2 puts it, it's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. Revelation of God's goodness => Repentance/Faith => Conversion => Obedience How's that? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I don't have a problem with your presentation. It is very nice except that there is to be an emphasis upon the merits of the Redeemer. The Lord, in 1888, made this matter of salvation very clear and simple: "There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ. The grace of the Holy Spirit has been offered to you again and again." T.M.97. To have salvation is to be brought into conformity to the law of God. By appropriating the merits of Christ to ourselves, the Holy Spirit is given and He accomplishes everything, bringing all our inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil into subjection and impressing Christ's character upon us. It is that simple. Thus we read, "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347. Embracing Him as a personal Saviour certainly involves being drawn to look upon Him, beholding Him as the sin-pardoning Redeemer. "When we trust God fully, when we rely upon the merits of Jesus as a sin-pardoning Saviour, we shall receive all the help that we can desire." P.P.431. To me these statements make the matter of salvation so simple that a child can understand it, being just as simple as receiving the alphabet. The matter of "merit" is the focus of the 1888 message as the next statement clearly shows: "When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress." F.W.94. Every false religion has "the merits of the creature" as their foundation, in order to find the approval of God. But the true religion, the only religion of the Bible teaches that there is salvation for us only through the merits of Jesus Christ. Hence the necessity of the continual exercise of faith in the merits of Christ by appropriating them to ourselves, by claiming them. This is our privilege. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karl Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I've already posted on this. Several times I've quoted the following: OK, now I'm going to back you into a corner. This is not malicious. I'm just trying to get you to step off your position long enough to look at where you've been standing. Here it is: You can't do that. You can't do what you quoted above. You can't look and live. You can't submit to the drawing of Christ. You're incapable. Your move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert True, the law has not been annulled instead I died to the law in the body of Christ. Hence I am not under the law. I am not obligated to it. The enablings of grace far exceed the requirements of the law, and grace certainly breaks none of the law's requirements. When you live in grace, you're not condemned by the law because the mind of Christ in you fulfills the law... and much more. Circular reasoning....I must be "in Christ" because He is obeying through me....That assumes salvation by works.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Since the law is not a sentient being, this could not, in any case, be literally true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 I think the KJV captures the understanding that we, serving through the Spirit, are delivered from condemnation of the law because we do it with our hearts joyfully instead of legalistically. Doesn't matter....You are not good enough for heaven....So you had to be delivered from under the law....No buts, no ifs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 When we are "under the law", we are trying to keep the law in our own strength. That's not the Biblical definition. Under law means to be ruled by the law....To be under it's jurisdiction, as was Christ....It means "obey & live" - "disobey and die". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: karl The enablings of grace far exceed the requirements of the law, and grace certainly breaks none of the law's requirements. When you live in grace, you're not condemned by the law because the mind of Christ in you fulfills the law... and much more. [/quote'] Circular reasoning....I must be "in Christ" because He is obeying through me....That assumes salvation by works.... What a bunch of baloney you believe Robert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 18, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 18, 2009 Just tagging on. How is one to be delivered from the law? In Gal 2:19, Paul says one must die to the law. In 2:20 he shows how it is done - by being crucified with Christ. Obviously this is not a literal one. He was crucified 2K yrs ago and we're living in 2009. But we identify ourselves with that death when we accept Christ as Lord and are buried in baptism symbolizing the death of the old self. If the "old self" is dead, the law no longer has jurisdiction over him. Paul amplifies this thought in Rom 7:1-6 when he uses the law of marriage as an example. A woman is bound/tied to her husband as long as he is alive. But when the husband dies, she is freed from the law of marriage and is free to marry another. If the person that comes out of the watery grave continues to live like the "old man", then the "old self" did not in fact die. Therefore the law is still has a claim on him. The law of marriage is not dissolved when in fact none of the partners died, so that marrying another while the spouse is still alive would be illegal. Obviously the law cannot die; it is eternal. For the law to lose its claim, the sinner has to die and remain dead. That is why the person who comes out of the watery grave has to "walk in newness of life." Rom 6:4. How does that happen? Paul makes it clear how that can happen. If the conversion is genuine, a new person quickened/created by the Holy Spirit comes out of the watery grave. More than that, this new person is indwelt by the Spirit. A person indwelt by the Spirit will "walk by the Spirit and ...will not gratify the desires of the flesh," Gal 5:16. Such a person who is "led by the Spirit" is "not under law," Gal 5:18, because "the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law Gal 5:22-23 ESV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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