Moderators Gerr Posted December 9, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 9, 2009 GERRY NORMAN'S question was what does it mean to be in CHRIST so we need to focus on this dgrimm60 OK here is what being "in Christ" means to me: 1. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 2 Cor 5:17 ESV. 2. We have "redemption that is in Christ Jesus," Ro 3:24 ESV 3. We are "dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus." Rom 6:11 ESV. 4. We have "eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:23 5. "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Ro 8:1 6. "free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." 8:2 7. We "are one body in Christ," Rom 12:5 8. In Christ, we cannot continue in sin; we die to sin, Rom 6:1,2. 9. In Christ, we die with Him when we are baptized, and a new rises with Him in His resurrection, Rom 6:3. 10. In Christ, we walk in newness of life, Rom 6:4. 11. In Christ, we are freed from sin, not slaves to sin, Rom 6:6 12. In Christ, we are not under law but under grace. 6:14 13. In Christ, we are slaves to righteousness, 6:18. 14. "in Christ, we have hope," 1 Cor 15:19 15. "In Christ Jesus, you are all sons of God," Gal 3:26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I praise God for His loyalty to me ... a sinner. I don't have to worry if I am in Him or not. I have His Robe ... I know why 4-point Calvinists say that -- but why are you saying it? Arminians typically do not imagine such a thing as "salvation outside of Christ". Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 9, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 9, 2009 "In Christ" means to me: 16. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Cor 15:22 ESV 17. We are always victorious in Christ, "in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession," 2 Cor 2:14 ESV 18. In Christ we are reconciled to God, "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them" 2 Cor 5:19 ESV 19. "in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles," Gal 3:14 ESV. 20. "in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith." Gal 3:26 ESV 21. "we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them," Eph 2:10 ESV 22. "now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ." Eph 2:13 ESV 23. "partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Eph 2:13 ESV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 9, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 9, 2009 To be "in Christ" also means that Christ is to be "in us." 24. "But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness," Rom 8:10 ESV 25. "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. vTest yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that wJesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!" The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (2 Co 13:5). 26. "To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are rthe riches of the glory of pthis mystery, which is Christ in you, sthe hope of glory." The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Col 1:27). We can't be "in Christ" and Christ not be "in us." 27. "Abide in me, and I in you." Jn 15:4 ESV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Quote: Robert believes that faith in Christ releases us from the necessity of keeping God's law, and you have often said that our works have nothing do with our salvation. Both ideas are dangerous error. And you have frequently stated that we are saved by our works which is the most dangerous heresy of all. In the end ... those who believe in Righteousness by works will have to answer for their attempt to earn salvation by their own power instead of the basis of our Saviour. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Redwood, then I suppose you would disagree with Revelation 12:17? If you don't believe anyone can be saved by keeping the commandments of God and the words of Jesus, then your argument would be against God--not mankind. Hmmm?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Quote: If you don't believe anyone can be saved by keeping the commandments of God and the words of Jesus Thanks Dr. Rich. No I clearly do not believe one "can be saved by keeping the commandments of God and the words of Jesus". I believe there is only one person through whom we are saved ... and that is Christ Jesus. It was through HIS keeping of the commandments of God that I am saved. No matter how well I keep his commandments ... I will not be saved. If one believes that they are saved by their keeping of the comamndments ... there would be different ways to be saved. It is my belief that there is only one way to be saved ... and that is through what JESUS did 2,000 years ago. You are free to disagree with that. But that is my faith. And unlike some on this forum ... I don't believe you have to believe as I do to be saved. I won't proclaim you to be lost because of your belief. WHY? Because we are not saved by our knowledge ... we are saved by HIS doing and dying. And praise God I don't have to judge your heart ... for that is HIS business. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 9, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 9, 2009 Quote: Robert believes that faith in Christ releases us from the necessity of keeping God's law, and you have often said that our works have nothing do with our salvation. Both ideas are dangerous error. And you have frequently stated that we are saved by our works I have never said that people are saved by their works. All people are saved by God's grace alone, through faith. True faith will always be demonstrated by works of faith and conformity to God's will. But the good works are the fruit of faith and of a saving relationship with Jesus Christ. Good works may be compared to the fruit of a good tree: the fruit does not make the tree but rather it is the result of a healthy tree. See Steps To Christ, 59-61. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 9, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 9, 2009 Revelation 12:17? If you don't believe anyone can be saved by keeping the commandments of God and the words of Jesus, then your argument would be against God--not mankind. Dr. Rich, Rev. 12: 17 doesn't say anyone is being saved by keeping the law. No one is saved by law keeping. That is an impossibility. No where does the Bible teach that people can earn their salvation by keeping rules and laws. That's a perversion of the truth. The truth about this subject is well described on pages 59-65 of the book Steps To Christ. Genuine obedience to the commandments is an evidence or proof of one's faith-based relationship with God. No one can keep the law of God apart from the power of the Holy Spirit. With that power, the believer is able to resist and overcome every temptation to sin. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewart (SDA) Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 ... let's look at the example of Israel. Look at how longsuffering God was with them. They kept sinning ... but yet in the eyes of God ... they were still HIS people. So ... that is GOD's definition. They were still His people, I agree. But "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not." (Jn 1:11) Paul and Barnabas, afterward spoke to the Jews, explaining that "it was therefore necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourself unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles." (Acts 13:46) Israel were HIS own people, but to take the next step, and imply that because they were His people, they were "in Him", is, I think a false step. ____________ They were rightfully called His people, and His servants, "...but His servants hated Him, and sent a message after Him, saying, We will not have this Man to reign over us'." Lk 19:14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Quote: Israel were HIS own people, but to take the next step, and imply that because they were His people, they were "in Him", is, I think a false step. Okay. I see your point. But perhaps it would be good to define the difference between being His People and being In Him. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I would again like to quote my friend John317. I think what he said is good: Quote: John317 ... "What you do not apparently understand is we are both holy and sinners at the same time." #193136 - Yesterday at 07:02 PM Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 Robert believes that faith in Christ releases us from the necessity of keeping God's law, and you have often said that our works have nothing do with our salvation. Can you quote something where Robert says this? What I've perceived from Robert is that if one believes it's possible to overcome sin, he perceives that as legalism. I don't recall his saying that believing in Christ releases us from the necessity of keeping the law. I'm not claiming he didn't say this, but am saying I don't recall his saying that, so I'm asking for some support to the claim that he did. Regarding saying that our works have nothing to do with our salvation, this seems to me to fall more in the category of vague than dangerous. Depending on what is meant by saying that, it seems to me one could say that, although personally I wouldn't want to say something like that, as for me it seems much too likely to be misunderstood. I think putting things the way you did is clear, which is, as I understood it, that we are saved by faith alone, but this faith, if it's saving faith, will manifest itself by obedience to the law. In the quote I presented from EGW, she says that if the sinner *does not resist*, he will be led to repentance, as he sees the light of God's love shining from the cross, at which point the law is written in his heart. I very much like this presentation, as it points out that it's sufficient to not resist the revelation of God's love. I think many people don't realize this is what they're doing (actually, we all do this to differing degrees). It's also possible to express the idea without reference to God's law, since the law is a transcript of God's character. We can simply say that if one responds to the love of Christ, shining from the cross, God will forgive such a one as he repents, and transform the repentant sinner into harmony with His character. It becomes the desire of the converted one to do the will of God, and live by the principles revealed in His character. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 9, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: John Robert believes that faith in Christ releases us from the necessity of keeping God's law, and you have often said that our works have nothing do with our salvation. Can you quote something where Robert says this? ... I don't recall his saying that believing in Christ releases us from the necessity of keeping the law. I'm not claiming he didn't say this, but am saying I don't recall his saying that, so I'm asking for some support to the claim that he did. Sure, if necessary I'll go back into his posts and find such quotes and post them here. He and I have discussed this topic often for the last 5 years. His view on this matter is pretty well known to those-- such as Gerry and LifeHisCost-- who have been following the theological threads for a long time. But in the meantime, simply ask Robert the question, is it necessary for Christians to keep all of the Ten Commandments? Does faith in Christ release the believer from obligation of obedience to the law of God? Also ask him if he believes the following statement: Quote: The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption. ....If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? ... And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience. .... That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. ... The scripture says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. . . ." 1 John 2:3-6. SC 59-61 Quote: PNATTMBTC: Regarding saying that our works have nothing to do with our salvation, this seems to me to fall more in the category of vague than dangerous. Ellen G. White says that it's a dangerous error to believe that our works have nothing to do with our redemption, and I believe she is right. See SC 60: 1. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 9, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 9, 2009 Quote: Robert believes that faith in Christ releases us from the necessity of keeping God's law, and you have often said that our works have nothing do with our salvation. Both ideas are dangerous error. And you have frequently stated that we are saved by our works which is the most dangerous heresy of all. In the end ... those who believe in Righteousness by works will have to answer for their attempt to earn salvation by their own power instead of the basis of our Saviour. Frequently? In that case you should be able to produce at least ONE post where he has made such claim. If he did I may have missed it. I have read enough of John's position that I don't believe you will be able to produce one such statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 "By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man [past tense]. This was not one by going out of Himself to another [as in "Christ in you"], but by taking humanity into himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption." (RH April 5, 1906). "In Christ" refers to what He did 2000 years ago, period. To read something else into this is anti-gospel. Christ, as God, assumed our corporate humanity. By corporate humanity I mean Adam's life multiplied again and again through procreation. We all share one life - the fallen life of Adam. This Christ, as God, took into Himself and by doing so redeemed fallen mankind. To reject this truth is suicide. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 9, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 9, 2009 I would again like to quote my friend John317. I think what he said is good: Quote: John317 ... "What you do not apparently understand is we are both holy and sinners at the same time." #193136 - Yesterday at 07:02 PM Yes, that is a true quote. But in order to prevent misunderstanding, it needs to be added that all humans are sinners and will keep their sinful nature until the Second Coming. Having a sinful nature does not necessitate the committing of sin, however. Sinners are made holy, or set apart, when they are put in right relationship with God. At that time we begin a life-long process of sanctification, or growth in Christ. Although God's people fall short of His glorious ideal for them, they don't continue to practice deliberate, willful sin. Study carefully 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6; 3: 1-10. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 But in the meantime, simply ask Robert the question, is it necessary for Christians to keep all of the Ten Commandments? Does faith in Christ release the believer from obligation of obedience to the law of God? This has absolutely nothing to do with the "in Christ" motif! Why can't you stay with the subject? Most likely no assurance....So you always look to your performance for peace...for you standing before God.... Well, if you really understood the spirit of the law (no self-seeking) then you wouldn't look to your performance any longer....You would wish to be delivered from under the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnattmbtc Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 What I here Robert saying is that our title for heaven, to use from Ellen White's phraseology, is 100% on the basis of what Christ did for us. If one says that this title is dependent in any way upon what we do, then that's legalism. I haven't seen him say that faith in Christ releases one from the obligation of keeping the law, but rather that salvation is not dependent upon our keeping the law, in the "title" sense. I think there's been some lack of clarity on both sides of the question here, so that people are talking past each. Many straw men are being attacked (Poor straw men). I think there's truth on both sides of the question. On the one side, Robert has been emphasizing the "in Christ" motif in the sense of Christ's having accomplished something for the whole human race, and wanting to make it clear that what we do cannot be mingled with what Christ did for us. I think everybody pretty much agrees with the not mingling part, but the "in Christ" part involving all of humanity isn't necessarily well understood. FW 21 is a great place to study into this (also 1SM 343, and DA 660 are good; from Scripture Romans 5:12-21 and 2 Cor. 5:14-21 are good to look at). I think what John has been sharing is correct, and well articulated, in terms of salvation being by faith alone in Christ, but a faith which is testified to by good works. The way Waggoner put it is that "faith works." He spoke of "faith which works by love." EGW took this, and tweaked it a bit to come up with "faith which works by love and purifies the soul." Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 10, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 But in the meantime, simply ask Robert the question, is it necessary for Christians to keep all of the Ten Commandments? Does faith in Christ release the believer from obligation of obedience to the law of God? This has absolutely nothing to do with the "in Christ" motif! Why can't you stay with the subject? The question was asked. See posts #306047; # 306160; #306178. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 10, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 10, 2009 On the one side, Robert has been emphasizing the "in Christ" motif in the sense of Christ's having accomplished something for the whole human race, and wanting to make it clear that what we do cannot be mingled with what Christ did for us. I think everybody pretty much agrees with the not mingling part, but the "in Christ" part involving all of humanity isn't necessarily well understood. FW 21 is a great place to study into this (also 1SM 343, and DA 660 are good; from Scripture Romans 5:12-21 and 2 Cor. 5:14-21 are good to look at). Good post with worthwhile info. Thanks. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert This has absolutely nothing to do with the "in Christ" motif! Why can't you stay with the subject? [/quote'] The question was asked. See posts #306047; # 306160; #306178. Doesn't matter...it has nothing to do with the "in Christ" motif. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 10, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Doesn't matter...it has nothing to do with the "in Christ" motif. Does faith in Christ release the believer from obligation of obedience to the law of God? How we understand the "in Christ motif" will affect the way we answer that important question, don't you agree? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted December 10, 2009 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 NORMAN MY 1ST POST MENTIONED THE SAME THINGS AS YOU DID IN YOUR LAST POST dgrimm60 That's a good thing. Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 What I here Robert saying is that our title for heaven, to use from Ellen White's phraseology, is 100% on the basis of what Christ did for us. If one says that this title is dependent in any way upon what we do, then that's legalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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