"In Christ" what does that mean?

[John317]

"obligation" is an OC word....We are not "under the law"....It doesn't have "jurisdiction" over the believer. If it does then there will be no heaven for us because the law demands perfect, agape love.

Does the correct understanding of the "in Christ motif" show us that those who are "in Christ" are delivered from the necessity of obedience to the Ten Commandments?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"obligation" is an OC word....We are not "under the law"....It doesn't have "jurisdiction" over the believer. If it does then there will be no heaven for us because the law demands perfect, agape love.

Does the correct understanding of the "in Christ motif" show us that those who are "in Christ" are delivered from the necessity of obedience to the Ten Commandments?

"necessity" is just another way of saying jurisdiction....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Does the correct understanding of the "in Christ motif" show us that those who are "in Christ" are delivered from the necessity of obedience to the Ten Commandments? [/quote']

"necessity" is just another way of saying jurisdiction....

So what is your answer? Yes or no?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So what is your answer? Yes or no?

2 Cor 3:18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord [His agape love] as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Here what "in Christ" does not mean. Just pointing out a belief that is held by some; this is not an attack, even though I don't agree with it

It is said by some that the whole world is in Christ. They say this because Levi was in Abraham's loins, (not yet born)when he paid tithe to Melchizedek therefore Levi paid tithe.

It's not really "because" of this, but this is an illustration of the theme. I think W. W. Prescott was the first to use this actual example in this context, although both Jones and Waggoner spoke of the same theme.

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Using this analogy they say that we are all born in Adam and therefore because of his sin we all sinned in Adam (which they fail to see that this means that Christ would have sinned)

Actually, there are many who have not failed to see this. Both Waggoner and Jones commented on this in great detail.

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According to this teaching Christ was the 2nd Adam and the whole world was in Him. Therefore when Christ lived on earth and overcame sin, we overcame; when He died on the cross we died, when He went to heaven we went with Him; that is, The whole world! That is one reason why they believe that our works have nothing to do with our salvation.

This is a bit confused, it seems to me. There are two different things going on. That the world was in Christ, as you're putting it, has nothing to do with our personal salvation (which depends upon our accepting Christ as our personal savior), but rather on the salvation of the world. The whole world was saved by Christ, as apart from His sacrifice, all would have been lost. The clearest place I know of which speaks of this in the SOP is FW 21. The following is a short statement of the theme:

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He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God.(1SM 343)

Note this says the "whole race of men" was restored to "favor with God." Another nice quote on this theme:

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Our Lord has said, "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. . . . For My flesh is meat indeed, and My blood is drink indeed." John 6:53-55. This is true of our physical nature. To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The bread we eat is the purchase of His broken body. The water we drink is bought by His spilled blood. Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ. The cross of Calvary is stamped on every loaf. It is reflected in every water spring. (DA 660;ellipsis original)

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They understand that to mean that we are fallen from grace and gone back to trying to earn our salvation or we are back under the law.

I don't know who you think "they" are, but I think if you're going to make a claim like this, you should identify who you're talking about, and quote something specifically which was said.

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But this teaching is way out of context and I believe dangerous.

What about making accusations without supplying any evidence?

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I do not have the time tonight to finish this so I hoe to get back sometime this week.

I hope when you have time you'll provide some quotes, so we'll know who you have in mind, and what specifically was said that you're disagreeing with.

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In Christ means to live in His Spirit and teachings, doing those things which He did in our limited but expanding capabilities.

"In Christ" doesn't mean just one thing. It, like so many words and phrases, depends upon the context.

[Gerr]

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2 Cor 3:18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord [His agape love] as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face.

Seems to me you missed underlining the most important part in the verse, i.e. "are being transformed into the same image from one dgree of glory to another; for this comes FROM the Lord, the Spirit."

[LifeHiscost]

DR RICH

we in our own strength can not keep anything

it is only in the power of the HOLY SPIRIT that we

can do any thing

dgrimm60

And another promise to add to that_____

"“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."John 15:5 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

"In Christ" refers to what He did 2000 years ago, period.

Rob

The period defining the gospel according to Robert since it permits no other belief by God except from Robert.

An opinion which is the height of spiritual arrogance or possibly amazing deception, although ignorance of the Word is a possibility also.

"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all -- yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." 1 Corinthians 15:10 KJV

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Galatians 2:20 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

What I here Robert saying is that our title for heaven, to use from Ellen White's phraseology, is 100% on the basis of what Christ did for us. If one says that this title is dependent in any way upon what we do, then that's legalism. I haven't seen him say that faith in Christ releases one from the obligation of keeping the law, but rather that salvation is not dependent upon our keeping the law, in the "title" sense.

I think there's been some lack of clarity on both sides of the question here, so that people are talking past each. Many straw men are being attacked (Poor straw men).

I think there's truth on both sides of the question. On the one side, Robert has been emphasizing the "in Christ" motif in the sense of Christ's having accomplished something for the whole human race, and wanting to make it clear that what we do cannot be mingled with what Christ did for us. I think everybody pretty much agrees with the not mingling part, but the "in Christ" part involving all of humanity isn't necessarily well understood. FW 21 is a great place to study into this (also 1SM 343, and DA 660 are good; from Scripture Romans 5:12-21 and 2 Cor. 5:14-21 are good to look at).

I think what John has been sharing is correct, and well articulated, in terms of salvation being by faith alone in Christ, but a faith which is testified to by good works. The way Waggoner put it is that "faith works." He spoke of "faith which works by love." EGW took this, and tweaked it a bit to come up with "faith which works by love and purifies the soul."

" He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Rev 2:11 KJV

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.Revelation 2:7 KJV

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.Rev 2:17 KJV

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:5-7 KJV

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. "Revelation 3:12-14 KJV

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.Revelation 3:21-22 KJV

Sounds a little legalistic to me. Do you think the Holy Spirit will be allowed in the kingdom?

Regards!

[Robert]

Quote:

2 Cor 3:18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord [His agape love] as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face.

Seems to me you missed underlining the most important part in the verse, i.e. "are being transformed into the same image from one dgree of glory to another; for this comes FROM the Lord, the Spirit."

No....I didn't....I have always maintained that we grow....

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"In Christ" refers to what He did 2000 years ago, period.

Rob

The period defining the gospel according to Robert since it permits no other belief by God except from Robert.

An opinion which is the height of spiritual arrogance or possibly amazing deception, although ignorance of the Word is a possibility also.

"But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all -- yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me." 1 Corinthians 15:10 KJV

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Galatians 2:20 KJV

Regards!

Excellent post LHC

pk

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

2 Cor 3:18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord [His agape love] as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face.

Seems to me you missed underlining the most important part in the verse, i.e. "are being transformed into the same image from one dgree of glory to another; for this comes FROM the Lord, the Spirit."

No....I didn't....I have always maintained that we grow....

Yeah, a funny kind of growth. You claim growth but no obedience!!!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Does the correct understanding of the "in Christ motif" show us that those who are "in Christ" are delivered from the necessity of obedience to the Ten Commandments?

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ROBERT: "necessity" is just another way of saying jurisdiction....

Quote:

JOHN: So what is your answer? Yes or no?

2 Cor 3:18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord [His agape love] as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face.

Is this the closest you can come to giving a "yes" or "no" answer to the question whether faith in Christ releases us from obedience to the Ten Commandments?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Here is Jesus definition of In Christ:

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

That saying turned some of Jesus' followers away but we have been blessed with understanding. Jesus also defined those actions (eating & drinking) for us so that we don't need to wonder what He was talking about.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; (this is referring to eating His flesh or reading His word) and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (Jesus is equating believing with drinking)

We come to Him through the Scriptures; remember when He said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39 As we search the Holy Spirit also testifies of Him John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

By reading and learning with prayer we can (if we choose) be led to Him. Drinking His blood in this instance is referring to believing that which we come to know. "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." John 6:45 This belief is an abiding decision, not a intellectual acknowledgement of His existence that changes when our favorite flavor of sin passes by.

Not all are in Christ according to Jesus, since only those whom the Father sends to Him will be saved.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (Cast out of where? of Him, that's the context) John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus clarifies that those who do not come to Him are not sent because of the Father and therefore are not in Him.

John 6:64 "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Jesus is saying that those who don't believe are not sent to Him by the Father because they don't believe. They don't believe and are not in Him. John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. Now watch how clear this gets when you add this verse; Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Do you see the connection?

When you eat and drink you are in Him. AND!!! He is in you.

Can you see the workings of imputed and imparted righteousness?

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Do you see the connection?

When you eat and drink you are in Him. AND!!! He is in you.

Can you see the workings of imputed and imparted righteousness?

Norman

Good post, Norman, solidly based on the Rock, the Word, the Foundation.

Blessings!

[John317]

When you eat and drink you are in Him. AND!!! He is in you.

Can you see the workings of imputed and imparted righteousness?

Norman

Hey Norman!! How are you? Hope everything is going well.

You know, I still have that Amplified Bible I had when I was back there to visit you. I'm going to look for another copy of the same edition and I'll send it to you. If I can't find one, I'll send the copy I have.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi John, I've been doing well. I have been pretty busy with work and on Facebook so I have not made time for CA. That amplified Bible offer would be great! That is gracious of you. I'll message you my address in case you don't have it.

Thanks and God bless you and what you do here on CA.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Originally Posted By: Norman

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Do you see the connection?

When you eat and drink you are in Him. AND!!! He is in you.

Can you see the workings of imputed and imparted righteousness?

Norman

Good post, Norman, solidly based on the Rock, the Word, the Foundation.

Blessings!

Hi Life,

I was reading & meditating on Psalm 119 this morning and it truly stood out to me as a living preserved definition and experience of what it means to be in Christ.

Please everyone re-read it again if you haven't in a while. The love displayed for the Lord and His word are very inspiring.

in Christ and His service.

Norman

[Gerr]

We've been using Psalms for our devotions and are currently on Ps 119.

Yep. I believe whoever wrote it is the experience of who is converted

and who is living/abiding "in Christ."

[pnattmbtc]

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14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

... 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

There are different meanings to the phrase "in Christ." In one sense, it deals with our dwelling in Christ by faith, as has been pointed out. However, there is also a corporate sense, which is brought out here, that involves the whole world, not being dependent upon faith. This aspect does not save, but makes salvation possible (i.e., available).

Here we see that the whole world is reconciled by Christ. Again, FW 21, and 1SM 343 speak of this second aspect. In Scripture, Romans 5:12ff, esp. verse 18 speaks to this as well.

[Gerr]

Yes. A general amnesty was declared at the Cross, but that doesn't do anyone any good until

each individual accepts it and stops fighting. A good illustration I've used before is

the signing of the end of hostilities between the USA & Japan that took place in Tokyo harbor

in 1945. But a lot of Japanese soldiers in the Pacific either did not hear of it or did not

believe it. They kept on fighting into the 1970's. Can you believe that? What a wasted

life! Likewise God declared peace at the Cross, but like many of the Japanese soldiers,

many continue to live in rebellion.

[LifeHiscost]

in 1945. But a lot of Japanese soldiers in the Pacific either did not hear of it or did not

believe it. They kept on fighting into the 1970's. Can you believe that? What a wasted

life! Likewise God declared peace at the Cross, but like many of the Japanese soldiers,

many continue to live in rebellion.

Very good illustration!

And Norman, I'm taking your advice this morning, about reading over Psalms 119. Thanks for the reminder of its' power.

Blessings!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

... 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

There are different meanings to the phrase "in Christ." In one sense, it deals with our dwelling in Christ by faith, as has been pointed out. However, there is also a corporate sense, which is brought out here, that involves the whole world, not being dependent upon faith. This aspect does not save, but makes salvation possible (i.e., available).

Here we see that the whole world is reconciled by Christ. Again, FW 21, and 1SM 343 speak of this second aspect. In Scripture, Romans 5:12ff, esp. verse 18 speaks to this as well.

Hi pnattmbtc,

If you look carefully at what Jesus is saying, He clearly states that those who don't come to Him and are not in Him. Therefore the whole world can't be in Him corporately. What He did corporately was to die for our sins and bring us into favor with God so that we can now be as Adam was before the fall and He saved us from destruction and justified our existence.

Many do not realize the importance of the incarnation of Christ in the fullness of time. Don't you realize that if Christ had decided not to come or changed His mind while He was here the race would have been destroyed? That is grace and that is justification of life.

In light of the new covenant law where the sanctuary ordinances reveal the method of salvation for man, corporate salvation or reconciliation is not revealed there. The only corporate action that are taken are for the ones who are in Christ.

The text that talks about reconciliation does not refer to the world being reconciled. look carefully: 2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Notice that it does not say that the world is reconciled in the present tense, but rather this is a process of reconciliation. Then Paul states that those who are in Christ and Christ in them, true believers, are to go and reconcile the lost to God. He has permitted man a probationary period to accept or reject His offer. This is grace and justification of life.

Sons and Daughters of God (1955), page 239, paragraph 3

Chapter Title: We Glory in the Cross of Christ

"Those who do not believe in Christ are not reconciled to God; but those who have faith in Him are hid with Christ in God. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

He became the sin-bearer and died on the cross to secure salvation for every sinner who repents and returns to his loyalty to God. Only through Christ can we obtain access to the Father."

My logical comment would be, "ya but God is reconciled to them" Well yes but not in the manner that some propose; God hasn't forgiven or saved the whole world. The sanctuary teachings do not teach this and neither do the Scriptures.

So what about the reconciled in Romans? Again if you are honestly looking for what is being said and not what we want it to say, it is clear that while Christ's death is for the world the ones spoken of in Rom 5 are referring to the believers. Just read it from verse 1 to the end and ask yourself, who is the "we" Paul's is talking about and how does he define them.

this is getting long so I'll end and continue in another post later.

in Christ and His service,

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Why am I concerned about this "in Christ" teaching? Because of what I saw it doing to me when I believed it and what I have seen in my friend's lives who believe it.

It's part of a bigger teaching that will, in the end cause you to twist scripture or give it up, twist SOP or give it up, give up the Sabbath and the sanctuary teachings or come up with the strangest excuses for what you believe.

This teaching can take the effects of law away from the conscience and where no law is(or effects of the law that points out of sin) there can be no mercy and/or it can lead to a presumptuous attitude that all is well when they are rebelling against the truth. I care for people too much to just ignore that. I hope that what I post can help someone understand what this teaching is about and where it will lead.

The teaching mainly stems from the writings of Paul. It takes a verse here and there and leaves out the context to promote a form of spiritualism. It also appeals to those who once were legalistic in their lives, I know I was one.

They get much of their teachings from the book of Romans. Here's how that happens, watch carefully and you'll see it. In Acts 15 Paul and others go to Jerusalem to find out what to do about the Jews who followed him just about everywhere teaching that you could believe in Christ but you need to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. These two things are what was done away with at the cross. there was a big discussion and a decision was made.

This is what Paul's letter are mainly dealing with; the law of circumcision and it's related laws. He is refuting the teachings of these false teachers. Romans starts out by revealing how sinful man is. I used to wonder why he did that. Then I learned that it is because he wanted to prove without a doubt that man is sinful. That is what we are like with out Christ. Therefore if man is like this, then what good would it do him to be circumcised? How would that make him righteous or justify him? He sets a tone by using a phrase "under the law" and what he means is this; if you are going to be circumcised, you are trying to be made righteous by works of the law of circumcision and that is futile and impossible. WE are made righteous by faith. Then he exemplifies Abraham.

Then in Rom Ch 4 he concludes Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe,(not the world) though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

It is clear that this is referring to the law of circumcision. Then they take these kinds of verses (which refer to circumcision) and apply them to the Ten Commandments.

Look at what Paul said in the following verses; Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Remember when Moses did not circumcise His sons? what did God do? He sent angels to kill him! But now there is no law and therefore no transgression. It is by faith and that is how Abraham was justified and declared righteous.

Now if you take all that is said about circumcision and realized that Paul was saying, "this is not how we are justified" then the book of Romans and Gal and other make sense. But if you take what Paul has said about being justified by faith and NOT by circumcision or keeping that law and all others that pertain to it (which excludes the 10 Commandments - 1Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.) and then you think he's saying you are justified by faith and you don't have to keep law (which to them means the 10 commandments).... what do you come up with?

Confusion and a highly unbalanced understanding of how we are justified and saved, which opens the door to the teaching that everyone is forgiven and saved in Christ. I can go on, but it's getting late; but you pray and think this through and see what kind of misunderstandings are supported by not seeing what Paul is dealing with in Romans, Galatians and other books of the NT.

[John317]

Thanks for that very helpful post, Norman. What you say makes perfect sense biblically. I agree with you completely. The "in Christ" motif, if misapplied, leads to many serious mistakes in NT theology. See post #306419 on this thread.