"In Christ" what does that mean?

[Woody]

Well Gerry. I will admit. Some of mine are good . Some of mine are bad. And some of mine are dead.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Why do we feel such a great need to make sure everyone knows that if they have REAL faith they will be obedient?

We don't tell others that if they are REAL humans they will eat, sleep, and breathe, do we?

We are often forced to talk about works because there are some people that believe/teach that a lifeless faith can save.

There is no such thing as a lifeless faith. There is only faith that works.

I don't understand the antipathy toward works. Let's throw this right back in your lap, Sivart. Are you suggesting that God is not desirous that we have works? Why do you "feel such a great need to make sure everyone knows that" - hmmm, well now, what ARE you promoting? If you are opposed to the concept of faith being revealed by obedience, are you saying that obedience is irrelevant to faith?

[SivartM]

There is no such thing as a lifeless faith. There is only faith that works.

I don't understand the antipathy toward works. Let's throw this right back in your lap, Sivart. Are you suggesting that God is not desirous that we have works? Why do you "feel such a great need to make sure everyone knows that" - hmmm, well now, what ARE you promoting? If you are opposed to the concept of faith being revealed by obedience, are you saying that obedience is irrelevant to faith?

I agree that there is no such thing as a lifeless faith. Which is what prompted my question: if faith will naturally result in good works, why do we have to tell everyone to have good works or else their faith is false?

Where did I express antipathy toward works? I'm not suggesting anything that you say. I am also not opposed to the concept of faith being revealed by obedience. I'm only saying that if we didn't harp on the "works" aspect of a "faith that works" so much, it would lessen the confusion and legalism.

Demanding works as proof of faith seems to me like it does less good than is thought. It usually ends up condemning others because they aren't working enough, taking our focus off of Jesus and onto what we imagine the hearts of others to look like.

[Gerr]

Quote:

There is no such thing as a lifeless faith. There is only faith that works.

I don't understand the antipathy toward works. Let's throw this right back in your lap, Sivart. Are you suggesting that God is not desirous that we have works? Why do you "feel such a great need to make sure everyone knows that" - hmmm, well now, what ARE you promoting? If you are opposed to the concept of faith being revealed by obedience, are you saying that obedience is irrelevant to faith?

Apparently there is, because James found it necessary to write his epistle.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

There is no such thing as a lifeless faith. There is only faith that works.

If you are opposed to the concept of faith being revealed by obedience, are you saying that obedience is irrelevant to faith?

I agree that there is no such thing as a lifeless faith. Which is what prompted my question: if faith will naturally result in good works, why do we have to tell everyone to have good works or else their faith is false?

Where did I express antipathy toward works? I'm not suggesting anything that you say. I am also not opposed to the concept of faith being revealed by obedience. I'm only saying that if we didn't harp on the "works" aspect of a "faith that works" so much, it would lessen the confusion and legalism.

"...why do we have to tell everyone to have good works or else their faith is false?"

Are you referring to that hated passage in James - "faith without works is dead?" I think "dead" is maybe worse than "false."

Do you think lower standards in our churches would help?

If we are not going to exhort each other to good works, maybe we could all agree that works are meaningless and that there really is no need for any standard other than that people show up for church once in a while. Not even necessary that they stay for all of the service. Contribute? Nah, that is too works oriented. We're not even going to have a program. We'll just wing it and let the Spirit have His way.

Or....would you rather have at least a few members who want the "works" to go right?

[SivartM]

"...why do we have to tell everyone to have good works or else their faith is false?"

Are you referring to that hated passage in James - "faith without works is dead?" I think "dead" is maybe worse than "false."

Do you think lower standards in our churches would help?

If we are not going to exhort each other to good works, maybe we could all agree that works are meaningless and that there really is no need for any standard other than that people show up for church once in a while. Not even necessary that they stay for all of the service. Contribute? Nah, that is too works oriented. We're not even going to have a program. We'll just wing it and let the Spirit have His way.

Or....would you rather have at least a few members who want the "works" to go right?

There is no passage in James that I "hate". James was writing about people who try to justify apathy by claiming "faith".

When did I say not to exhort each other to do good works? When did I say that works are meaningless or that all we need to do is go to church? You are completely twisting everything I say (how's that "working" out for you?).

All I said to begin with was a question. I just asked why we felt the need to emphasize works as the proof of our faith if it was supposed to be a natural outgrowth of faith. The hostile reactions only seem to say that people are very careful to defend their works. That is the legalistic confusion that I said came from blurring the line between salvation by faith and salvation by works.

[pnattmbtc]

p:God didn't give the Old Covenant.

R:Negative....We are by nature proud...legalistic. Anything we get in this world is by hard work....Why should salvation be any different. So the OC was to take our pride and slam it into the dust of the ground so that we might be justified by faith.

[pnattmbtc]

I agree that there is no such thing as a lifeless faith. Which is what prompted my question: if faith will naturally result in good works, why do we have to tell everyone to have good works or else their faith is false?

Where did I express antipathy toward works? I'm not suggesting anything that you say. I am also not opposed to the concept of faith being revealed by obedience. I'm only saying that if we didn't harp on the "works" aspect of a "faith that works" so much, it would lessen the confusion and legalism.

I'd like to hear more about God's character.

[pnattmbtc]

I just asked why we felt the need to emphasize works as the proof of our faith if it was supposed to be a natural outgrowth of faith.

I agree that there is often too much talk about works, and not enough about other things, like Christ, or God's love, or God's character. However, in regards to your question, it's an easy one to answer, and that is to try to reach people who are thinking they have faith when they don't.

However, having said that, I think there are more effective ways of accomplishing this.

[SivartM]

What could be more effective than a works-monitoring-program so the folks in charge of the church books can track everyone's spiritual health?

Really, though, what are your ideas?

[Gerr]

Well Gerry. I will admit. Some of mine are good . Some of mine are bad. And some of mine are dead.

Don't you think God wants us to have nothing but the kind of works that would bring glory to His name?

[Gerr]

Just tagging on:

We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion." FW 49

[Woody]

What God desires ... and what I have are miles apart. And will remain that way till I see His face.

[Woody]

Just tagging on:

We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion." FW 49

Through heathenism, Satan had for ages turned men away from God; but he won his great triumph in perverting the faith of Israel. By contemplating and worshiping their own conceptions, the heathen had lost a knowledge of God, and had become more and more corrupt. So it was with Israel. The principle that man can save himself by his own works lay at the foundation of every heathen religion; it had now become the principle of the Jewish religion." DA 35

"Works will never save us; it is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf." FW 48

"You cannot depend upon your good works for salvation." 5MR 36

[karl]

"...why do we have to tell everyone to have good works or else their faith is false?"

All I said to begin with was a question. I just asked why we felt the need to emphasize works as the proof of our faith if it was supposed to be a natural outgrowth of faith. The hostile reactions only seem to say that people are very careful to defend their works. That is the legalistic confusion that I said came from blurring the line between salvation by faith and salvation by works.

I am not the one who brought up an objection to telling people about having good works. You need to own that one, Sivart. Your question was an unsolicited accusation. You brought it up on your own. But, after you logged your disapproval of telling people to have good works, I felt obligated to point out that James says pretty much exactly what you thought we shouldn't say.

I do not believe that good works are the "natural" outgrowth of the nominal faith most people are sitting on. I believe that the general lack of good works is a BILLBOARD condemning nominal Christianity. It is a billboard which some want to tear down by claiming that works are irrelevant.

Read the letters to the churches in Revelation, Sivart. Is Jesus exhorting good works? Read what Jesus says in the Gospels to those who would be His disciples. He's telling them to do stuff. Hard stuff.

How are people going to know that they need more of the Spirit of Christ unless they press on toward the mark of the high calling of Jesus Christ and find out how much they need Him in their hearts, their mouths, their appetites, their tempers?

Babies don't learn to walk by sitting.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

"...why do we have to tell everyone to have good works or else their faith is false?"

All I said to begin with was a question. I just asked why we felt the need to emphasize works as the proof of our faith if it was supposed to be a natural outgrowth of faith. The hostile reactions only seem to say that people are very careful to defend their works. That is the legalistic confusion that I said came from blurring the line between salvation by faith and salvation by works.

I am not the one who brought up an objection to telling people about having good works. You need to own that one, Sivart. Your question was an unsolicited accusation. You brought it up on your own. But, after you logged your disapproval of telling people to have good works, I felt obligated to point out that James says pretty much exactly what you thought we shouldn't say.

I do not believe that good works are the "natural" outgrowth of the nominal faith most people are sitting on. I believe that the general lack of good works is a BILLBOARD condemning nominal Christianity. It is a billboard which some want to tear down by claiming that works are irrelevant.

Read the letters to the churches in Revelation, Sivart. Is Jesus exhorting good works? Read what Jesus says in the Gospels to those who would be His disciples. He's telling them to do stuff. Hard stuff.

How are people going to know that they need more of the Spirit of Christ unless they press on toward the mark of the high calling of Jesus Christ and find out how much they need Him in their hearts, their mouths, their appetites, their tempers?

Babies don't learn to walk by sitting.

Very well put karl, and the ones wearing the billboards are usually the first to cry legalism whenever Gods requirements are discussed.

[SivartM]

*sigh*

I am not the one who brought up an objection to telling people about having good works. You need to own that one, Sivart. Your question was an unsolicited accusation. You brought it up on your own. But, after you logged your disapproval of telling people to have good works, I felt obligated to point out that James says pretty much exactly what you thought we shouldn't say.

[teresaq]

but misunderstanding and misrepresentation is the name of the game, bro!! you know that by now.

fyi, i think i got what you were saying before the stones came flying.

you have to remember: lower stages.... "milk" babies.

now lets you and me "go at it" over nahum. i do study my bible instead of throwing insults around, depending on the "fundamental beliefs", sda handbook or ellen white. :)

[Woody]

Quote:

but misunderstanding and misrepresentation is the name of the game, bro!! you know that by now.

This is a strange but valid point. It would appear that when some can't find anything wrong with a post ... that they tweek it just a little and make it into something that they CAN argue with.

Why is arguing such a popular past time?

[Guest]

Yes, and the ones at the higher stages get to go around calling people milk babies, and telling them what a low stage they are at. Also when they throw insults and use sarcasm, you don't really notice it, because they are at a higher stage.

[teresaq]

Yes, and the ones at the higher stages get to go around calling people milk babies, and telling them what a low stage they are at. Also when they throw insults and use sarcasm, you don't really notice it, because they are at a higher stage.

[Guest]

Nobody blasphemed the Bible or the Holy Spirit. What you do on here is a subtle form of murder, and I try my best not to say anything about it.

[Woody]

Nobody blasphemed the Bible or the Holy Spirit. What you do on here is a subtle form of murder, and I try my best not to say anything about it.

Oh please ... let's not be overly dramatic ... or I will send Olger after you.

[Guest]

No please, not that...

[SivartM]

Whatever "in Christ" means... I think we need some over here.

Oh, sorry, did that sound judgmental to anyone? Well, it's okay, because I'm allowed to "judge righteous judgment". Because, you know, those words are in the Bible. Whatever they mean.